Lana is now 7 months old and me and my partner have decided not to spay.  Recently on walks we have noticed a dog wandering who we assume lives in one of the nearby houses - it got me thinking about when Lana does start her seasons what a nightmare it would be if a dog approached, even though I intend to do only roadwork during season's.  The truth is that we are scared to put her through surgery - The GA (which sight hounds are sensitive too), post op pain, reduced exercise and possible incontinence problems??  Thing is we are a family, its just the three of us and I would be devastated if anything happened to her.  I realise this is a routine op but I really dont know what to do - a bitch spay is a massive op!!  Does anyone out there still have an 'in-tact' bitch?  Would like to hear!
Sarah :)

Don't think that Lana has a problem with anesthetics, considering what she already gone through! Incontinence is a VERY small thing to consider in comparison to pyometra, phantom pregnancies, mood swings, milk retention, mammary tumour etc....  Depends on you Rozzer, if you can cope with her as she is then fine, she is your dog!
Dawn.

Your right Dawn, she has already gone through one GA - she was such a nightmare :rolleyes: - A real baby!  I'm hearing what you are saying though :)
Sarah

There are GA's that are suitable for sighthounds and providing you check with the vet that he will use the correct drugs there is no more risk than there is to any other dog.

Why not talk to your vet and I am sure he will be able to put your mind at rest.

Slow up Dawn, nothing is as black and white as all that, have had in my time loads of bitches and little of the problems you are suggesting will happen as a matter of course. There are possibilities of some problems occurring but then there are possibilities of problems with spaying too, nothing is certain in life, you have to make a decision for the best reasons and get on with it.

What do you mean slow up??????  Are you saying that unspayed bitches cannot get pyometra, mammary tumours, phantom pregnancies, hormonal imbalancies, temerament changes, mood swings etc...?  The possibility of one or more of these things occuring is terrific compared to possibility of them not!  The fact that the small possibility of urinary incontinence "may" occur, surely is a very insignificant detail compared to the aforementioned, it won't kill a bitch will it?

People must make their own mind up and I agree 100% with that.  One thing with your Affie though, they more often than not grow back their puupy whiskers on their face when they have been spayed, should you want to show Lana (I think I read something about that on a thread somewhere) it would spoil her chances somewhat.
Dawn.

Meaning that un-spayed bitches do not necessary get all or even any of the list you gave and just to balance things there are effects of spaying some of which are more common than those the un-spayed bitch may get. And incontinence can be a big problem, not only to the owner but can cause bad burning of the skin, and recurrent infection, but as I have said it is only one of the 'possible' problems.

Personally think that vets would be better employed explaining to clients how to watch for any problems that may happen instead of pushing to get any dog that comes near them in neutered. They may also be more honest about things like temperament changes and the fact that sometime life long drugs may be needed to deal with skin problems and incontinence.

If owners were given a full picture of the situation then they could make an informed decision, I personally have no problem with the spaying of bitches late in their live if the owner is able to weigh up the situation or earlier if the bitch is suffering (although medication is available for that too) but I do find the castration of males a real problem having seen for myself what problems it can cause if your dog is unfortunate.

OH just as a matter of interest I had a rescue bitch that was spayed early (7 months) and she developed mammary tumour also know of a castrated dog who did as well as an intact dog, Will agree that spaying may reduce the likelihood but it does not rule it out entirely.

Thats interesting Jackie, I have never ever seen urine burns on a spayed bitch due to incontinence.  I will ask my vet about that.
Dawn.

Speaking from personal experience, bitch spayed young and the genitals did not fully grow to protrude as they would normally do, sure you vet will at least know of a case even if they have not had one themselves, when I was researching the effects of neutering (mostly on males) a number of vets mentioned this problem in early spayed bitches and at that time were dead against early spaying but like most things what they do in the USA will find it's way here sooner rather than latter.

There were also some damage due to the op it's self but have not heard too much of that in the past few years, may be, with all the cases the vets deal with it has become more like shelling peas.

Of course unspayed bitches can get all those things! Spayed bitches can also get temperament changes, mammary tumours etc. But it doesn't mean that they will! Just as the side-effects of spaying are all possibilities, which owners should be made aware of to be able to make the correct decision for them.

Unfortunately urinary incontinence can lead to the death of a bitch. Some people find that the constant smell of urine in their house (especially if their bitch is allowed on the furniture) is unbearable, and the poor thing is put to sleep.

The right decision for one person could be the wrong decision for the next.
:)

Hi

I have kept intact bitches before and had no problems at all. I will be having Phoebe spayed because she can be hormonal around her season and I don't want to have to keep sending her to her breeder because I have an intact male. I am not going to have Willis castrated because he is just a lovely dog and there is no need, and Phoebe would be better because I have to admit that with a dog the size of a dane I am not keen on the bleeding....but if I didn't have Will then the bleeding wouldn't be enough to warrant me getting her spayed - if you know what I mean :)

C :)

i work in a vets and am often horrified at the young age dogs and cats are being neutered.  yes the GA's these days are much safer, even for sight hounds, but there is always a risk with any operation.  if you dont want her spayed and are aware of the risk of her getting caught and of the health risks involved in leaving her entire then dont have her done.  she is your dog and you must do what is best for you and her.  dont be pressurised in having her spayed if you dont want too,
kelly

very refreshing attitude kelly :)

That is a very refreshing attitude!  Thanks Chloe and Kelly :)

thanks :) i get very annoyed with the pressure clients are placed under to have their pets neutered, especially at such young ages.  most of them have not even got their adult teeth, the bitches not even had a season and the dogs testicles have barely dropped before we are chopping them off!!  we do get very irresponsible people who would let their dog run riot impreganting anything it could and people who would let their bitches wander and get caught having umpteem unwanted litters, and these should have their dogs done asap, but for sensible people who know what they are doing i feel it is wrong to pressure them into an op they dont want,
kelly

Hear Hear :D or should that be Here Here

Hurrah! Someone else joining those of us who believe that people are perfectly capable of keeping animals healthy and entire without unwanted litters every season.
:)

Well I have to say I have had three bitches including Sal and first one was spayed because she lived with an entire male same reason as Chloe really he was perfect and she was a slight nighmare around her seasons. Even after she had two litters and she was 5 when she was spayed. The second bitch was spayed at 5 she had prymotrea (hope thats right spelling) she was very very ill. This one is Sal and 16 months old and I have no plans to spay she is fine as she is, a slight inconvience but nothing I can't cope with...but if I couldn't I would not of had a bitch. The choice is yours, she's your dog your choice. There are pro's and con's for spaying or not spaying and a different opinion from every bitch owner.

Take care - Karen

Edited to say. Yes Jeangenie I have managed to keep bitches unspayed and not have unwanted litters :)  it was not hard.   

I agree absolutely. There is no doubt that spaying can be a very useful, if not lifesaving, operation. But the way some people talk (not those on this thread!) every unspayed bitch is guaranteed a litter every season, and every entire dog will be roaming the countryside raping and savaging as it goes, because their owners are too stupid or too ineffectual to control them. Then when they smugly assert "It's what responsible people do" .... well! My blood boils! How patronising can you get?

Rant over.
:)

Jeangenie,

Responsible people DO have their dogs neutered or spayed. That's the problem - it's irresponsible people that do not spay or neuter and let their animals roam or do not take the proper safeguards to ensure there are no unwanted litters.  

I've own spayed and intact bitches - I am absolutely not saying it is irresponsible to keep an intact bitch or dog.  There are responsible people on both sides of the neuter or not neuter decision.  But you can be sure it is only responsible people, who are aware that they may not be able to keep their intact pets under control, that do neuter.

Stacey

Stacey, we will never see eye to eye on this one, so I shall say no more.
:)

Actually, I bet we do see eye-to-eye.  I am not pro-neutering or spaying, I am pro being a responsible owner.  :-)

Stacey

True. We're probably just debating the use of the word 'responsible'! It could be debated that it is only 'irresponsible' people who should have their dogs neutered, because 'responsible' people know how to control them!
:) :)

Debate is always fun.  :-)  Or, a responsible person could be married to my husband, who for some reason refuses to believe when a bitch is in season, or that the dogs coming to visit aren't just there for a platonic visit.  I can control my dog, but not my husband - I give up with him.

Stacey

Take it you mean Kelly JG, you must know my feelings. Must say it is refreshing to hear a vet nurse that has not been brainwashed, and can make up their own mind.

I agree, I'm just back from the vets having had Millie microchipped tonight and yet again was asked "am I having her spayed?", which they have been going on about every time we've been there.  And they are trying to encourage me to have it done when she's six months, before she's had a season.  So a vet nurse that DOESN'T encourage is definately a breath of fresh air!

I must admit, when we were asked at her first vaccination, my immediate answer was "yes" whereas my partner's answer at the same time was "no" which was a rather embarrasing moment!  So I came back and dug out my book with detailed chapters on pregnancy, whelping and puppy care, including pictures of puppies being born to try and discourage him, plus I pointed out that as I was home all day and with her most of the evening whilst he is hooked into his pc, it would be me that deals with all of the cleaning up when she comes into season, and care of puppies after.

Unfortunately, i sat down and read the section of the book with great interest, thinking "hmm, you know, I could cope with that!  And I was cleaning up wee and poo in the house for months, why should a season twice a year bother me?  So when we were asked tonight, I answered "no" whilst he answered "yes" at the same time!  Doh!  They must think we're a right strange couple!

We're really undecided.  Whilst there's less to worry about (theoretically) in the long term, with having her spayed, its so final and in a few years we might decide we want puppies - we got our puppy due to the breeder wanting a second dog and wanting to breed from her own bitch which has such a lovely temperament and I would probably feel the same if I wanted another Scottie (which of course I do already, having got one now!).  Plus Scotties are getting so rare and hard to get, it would be nice to give some other desperately-seeking-Scottie people the opportunity that we got.  (I hope that's not a bad reason to want to breed that I am going to get backlash for!)

So anyway, I've waffled again, my point being that I haven't been able to make up my mind and felt 'rushed' into making a decision within the next month, especially as the vets (who I automatically think of as the 'font of all knowledge' of course) keep pushing me, so this discussion has enabled me to step back from it and relax about the matter.  If I do decide to do it, I don't have to have it done in a few weeks and I can therefore think about it more wisely, weigh up the options more and make an informed decision.  Hurrah for you lot!:-)

Just a thought but i know our vet visits the local NCDL and just maybe that is an influence behind them bothering the 'clients' for their dogs to have the op?

Is it common for vets & vet nurses to put some degree of pressure on clients to spay/castrate? That's the impression I'm getting from this and other threads on the subject. And if it is common, is the suggestion often made without a full discussion of the pros and cons?

I've never once had a vet or vet nurse suggest neutering a pup or dog unless there was a clinical reason so I'm becoming curious.

PS - The question isn't just aimed at Jackie H but at Kelly and everyone else.

Yes Jas, it has been known, even my own vet, should the dog be due to have a GA for some reason, always say, "we may as well castrate him whilst we have him under". And when I took my latest pup to their 'Puppy Party' the vet nurses gave the impression that everyone was expected to have their dog or bitch neutered as soon as possible, they were even offering to take booking there and then, think one person did.

I thank Heaven for my practice on a regular basis already - maybe better make it even more regular now!

Yep, had the same experience at a Puppy Party when Spooky was a puppy (six years ago!)

i have only worked in a few practices  but in these it has been routine to advise neutering, and it is assumed that everyone will do once the dog is 6 months.  we are told to encourage them to do so.  it as actually made cheaper to have a younger, smaller, dog done, there is also a cheaper price for bitches that have never had a season. 

we are told to discuss it at puppy parties, at vaccinations and at adolescent health checks.  a lot of clients go ahead and book the op for their dogs at 5-6 months, seemingly with very little thought.  it is very rare that i have actually had someone ask questions about the pros and cons.

i feel there is some pressure to a certain degree as if someone is unsure whether or not to have a dog neutered then all the potential problems of having an entire dog are brought out (pyo, mammary/testicular tumours and phantom pregnancies) and often the owner can be made to feel irresponsible or that they are not doing the best for the health of their dog, some practices and vets are worse than others. one place i worked i  was made to feel uncomfortable once one of mine was reaching 6 months as i had not booked his castration, nor planned to. 
kelly

Well i for one, am glad that there is some pressure placed on people by vets to spay and neuter.
At The end of the day, everyone knows their own mind and they are the ones that have to make the decision.
BUT there ARE so many irresponsible people out there, who haven't got a clue. And I would RATHER be harrassed by my vet to have it done, than them not try and persuade people to do it.
Instead of being annoyed with the vet, tell them. Tell them WHY you are NOT going to spay/neuter and if they don't take the hint after that, find another vet that will.

I agree Snoppy...One thing that I have noticed though is that generally the wrong people are being pressured/targeted!  People that take their pup's to parties and socialisation are generally responsible, caring owners - which is why they have chosen a good start for their pup's.  I find that the responsible people are those that are having their emotions and guilt played with when making a decision (as of course we all want what is best for our dog's and trust our vet's opinion.)  It's the idiots who let their dog's roam and don't have a clue about preventing unwanted litters that should have pressure put on them....And I'm not even going to go into how much veterinary practices must make on all these 'routine' operations!
Sarah :)

Sasha is my first bitch and I had her speyed at 20 months, because she suffered hormonal problems. She had had two seasons and I didn't find the actual bleeding a problem. I was worried about the op because she had already had major heart surgery at 10 months. She went to the vets at 7.30am to be speyed and was back home shortly after 2pm. The next day she was her usual self and 10 days later had her one and only stitch removed.  My two male dogs were entire up to the age of 10 and 11, and then they had to be castrated because of hormonal tumours.

I understand what you say Snoopy
My male is now eight and a half.
In the past I've thought I would have liked him to have sired pups.I would have loved one of his pups.
I even thought of having his semen frozen for future use.I would look into that if I decided to have him castrated.
Chow

Hiya Chow.
My boys were both aged 4 when i had them done. I've never had a male castrated before this.
The reason i had it done was, i watched a friends dog slowly deteriorate with testicular cancer, and unfortunately he couldn't have them removed as he had other health issues going on.
I never want to be in this position. I'm never going to breed or show, it wouldn't really affect their behaviour at this age, and as for the weight and coats, well i do believe that weight can be easily controlled and who cares about the coat anyway, for as i said i was never going to show. It's neither here nor there to me if the coat was more difficult to maintain.
At the end of the day though, it's a personal decision.

Rozzer
I'm the same as you with my bitch.I have the same fears as you.
I have an entire male and have fears about having him castrated.
Chow

Firstly Chow, castration isn't as complicated an op as spaying, it's really quite straightforward.
Secondly, Rozzer, you sound like a very sensible owner, so as most other people state, it's got to be your decision at the end of the day. You don't sound like the type of person to let your dog roam, so it shouldn't be a worry. The only thing is, if you have children, you need to drill it into them to make sure they never let the dog out.
I've had numerous dogs and bitches, all my bitches have been spayed, none have ever had urinary incontinence. My last was four when she was done. She had terrible phantom pregnancies which got worse after every season. It was probably more torturous to let her keep having them than to spay her.
My two boys have both been castrated, neither have had any ill effects. No change in coat or weight. As for weight, i believe it can be well controlled with diet anyway.
I may have been lucky in the past, but in future i will always neuter all my dogs, as i believe the pros far outweigh the cons.
The thing i disagree with on here is that people often ask about neutering and alot of people come along saying 'Don't do it'. Yes, there are alot of people out there who are very responsible, but for every one of us, i bet there's five who aren't. Thats why numerous dogs are put to sleep every day as there aren't enough homes for all of them.

I Have had ALL of my females spayed at 6mths. and i have never had a problem,i dont think i could go thru heat cycles with my girls 1,2 times per year,i'm sure it would be frustrating for them,but all females are different,i have seen girls that have been on heat and you wouldnt even know it then i have seen others who have ripped their claws apart trying to dig out under the fence or scratch thru the front door in utter desperation to find a male! It all depends how your girl handles her heat and if you want to go through the POSSIBLE hassle with her. Complications with the op. would be last thing i would worry about tho.
I have to agree with everything Dawn has said. I must say,i have seen more complications with intact females then i have spayed ones,why put them through the frustration of heat cycles with out being mated when you can just get them spayed and not have the hassle for you or her??

good luck :) let us know what you decide

Christine

I've had 3 bitches, the first, a Cocker was left entire (she had 2 litters...carefully bred, it was intentional :)) till she got pyometra at about 12/13 years (she was fine after the op).  My second, (a Springer)  I decided to spay and she was ill with a slight infection after her op. (cleared up quickly with AB's). Her coat went very woolly but I don't show so not a problem.  Bess (6 year old Springer) had phantoms after her first few seasons but with homeopathy they've gone altogether now so I'm not going to have her spayed. She's no bother when she's in season, not much blood and I'm always with her so no chance of pregnancy. :)

I'm well aware that there are risks whatever the decision is and I agree that people are pressured into spaying. I wobbled over my decision with Bess for years and kept putting it off (think I knew deep down I didn't want to have her done) so It's nice to hear others say they aren't spaying. :)

I hope Lana stays happy and healthy whatever you decide Sarah. :)

Kath.xx

Hi Kath :) - Deep down I dont want to have her done.  But I recently went to the vet for some worming tablets and I was asked AGAIN, "am I going to have Lana spayed" - I replyed "NO", knowing full well that they weren't going to leave it there.  I got the speech that started "she's your dog but......"  And I started to feel guilty - This post has really helped me and I thank you all for your reply's - I am responsible and Lana is always my main concern and I want to do what is right by her.  My feeling now is to stick to my gun's but to always keep an open mind.  Lana is our only dog, when she visits her grandparents (:D) she gets to spend time with their dogs all but 1 are bitches (5 in total), so obviously Charlie wont see Lana during certain times of the year - mmmm Puli x afghan !!  We also have a new home, some new carpets and new flooring - and an expensive cream leather sofa!  Lana came after all this so we knew the risks...I've cleaned mud, fox poo and goodness knows what else from the furniture since last November (roll on Summer!) so drops of blood shouldn't shock me too much (we have both owned bitches before in the family home) - again I knew this before taking on a bitch.  I am going to see how she goes, get over OUR first season and see if we can cope with about 20 more!!!! 
Sarah :) 

When I first saw the title of your topic I thought "Oh no, I'm going to read this and feel guilty all over again" but I'm glad I read it, it's really helped me too. I suppose I'm lucky that I we've hardly ever needed the vet and I've never given any of mine boosters so I don't get vets pestering me. :) If Bess needs to see a vet I'll probably get the "must spay" AND the "must booster" lectures but who is to say that they are always correct anyway? The booster issue is being now questioned even by vets themselves.

Well done for saying no to the vet, she's your girl and it's your decision, whatever and whenever you decide.

Kath.

My Cairn terrier dog is 4 months old now and we are seriously thinking about having him neutered once his dangly bits have arrived (6-9months) but would like to know of the effects other Cairn owners have noticed after neutering. We have heard of a possible weight gain problem.
A

Weight gain is an easy side effect to control you just feed less. Personally I would never castrate a dog except for medical reasons. But I am one of the unlucky ones who have owned a dog that suffered a good deal from being done, so for me never again. But as has been said before, it is your dog and if you have good reason to do it then that is the best thing for you to do, but please wait as long as you can before having him castrated, if not for any other reason at least to avoid the possible eunuch look.

Thanks for your views Jackie H
Does anyone else know of any problems other than weight gain and also what are the benefits of castration?
Any Cairn owners out there?
A

The only true benefit is your dog can't father a litter. It can't, of course, get cancer in the testes that it no longer has but the chance of prostrate cancer is thought to be much higher and that is a very bad one to deal with. I will send you details of the problems I had with my dog, some were very rare but others more common than people are aware of, putting the dogs problem down to some other cause.

Apart from weight gain and coat change the only other thing that most people will notice is feminisation syndrome, in some dogs it is enough to be a problem when trying to walk them in others it is so bad it requires medication for the rest of his life.

Oh no, don't tell me there's a whole issue with boosters now!!!

Phew! I sincerely hope not J
A

'fraid so.