I am working on recall with my 10 month English Pointer.  My vet has assured me that this breed will not become over weight by giving her a premium treat reward for good recall.  My questions are now my pup expects a treat everytime she returns to me whether I called her or not.  Do I still give her the treat when her return was not called by me?  How long do we do this process of treating each time?  Opinions?

Your training must be going well if the dog associates coming back with a reward :D  Hence the "begging". 

First of all praise your dog for coming back of her own volition by voice, hand contact etc but do not feed.

Your dog is 10 months old, please do not assume that it is now "trained"; this training must be maintained and reinforced at every available opportunity until the dog is conditioned to return when called.  So basically keep up the intensive work vigilantly until at least 18 months if not 2 years old.

Variable reinforcement is much stronger and has a better effect than rewarding EVERY single time the dog comes back; so I would use varied treats such as liver, cheese, or other highly desired treats for this exercise ONLY and feed the most desired treat for the fastest returns.  This way the dog not only comes back but comes back at speed; always impressive :D

A lot of people would give their right arm to have a 10 month old dog that returned to them whether called or not.  I would continue to reinforce this with more than just one treat.  If when she gets older she still bugs you for treats then maybe THEN you could give them only when you had called her.  Meanwhile cut down her daily food ration to compensate for the extra treats if you are worried about weight and vary the treats so that she doesn't get bored.  Use toys and games also as rewards.

Sally

You are experiencing one of the drawbacks of using food as a reward for good behaviour.  Eventually dogs 'mug' you for food because they come to expect it for what they have done.  I would start to taper off food rewards NOW.  Use verbal praise EVERY time your dog returns to you and food reward on occasion only, just to keep your dog 'on its toes'.  Eventually omit food entirely for recall. 

As a rule of thumb you should use food plus praise every time your dog returns to you while you are teaching what the command means, taper it off and use food occasionally to really 'nail' the behaviour and then do away with food altogether and just praise when your dog gets right anything you've asked it to do.

After all, we praise our dogs during housetraining everytime they 'perform' where we want them to, once they learn to go outside we rarely praise them.  Do the same with every new behaviour you want to teach.

I always reward my dogs whenever they come back to me, whether I've called them or not. I think it's good to know they are still keeping me in mind, despite all the other distractions!
:)

I too would never stop rewarding a dog for coming when called or checking in voluntarily.  That said I don't need to with all of my dogs but certainly do with the youngsters and the Afghan.  :)  Praise on it's own is rewarding, I know, but I give that for free too often for it to be that valuable. ;)

Sally

Hello.

I would treat her too everytime she came back regardless of if I'd called her. :) Coming to you is what she accociates with "nice".

Good luck KAREN

I treat my two every time they come back to me , i'd rather i knew they will come back than risk it.

Ella.x.

Praise is reward but it is secondary to food.  Once the association has been made between the two you can substitute praise for food. 

This is what happens with the clicker and food.  At first you click and treat together but once the association has been made with the two you phase out the food and use the click to show that the dog has done what you want.  Eventually, when the behaviour is well and truly learned you phase out the click and just use the command and praise.  Food does not have to be given in the long term and food is not the only thing a dog sees as a reward.

If a click is not followed by a reward other than just praise it will become meaningless and food DOES have to be given in the long term otherwise the dog will die. :D

The click and food treat are used continuously in the teaching phase, then used at variable frequency in the training phase and then ARE phased out when the behaviour is learned. 

You can't take either a clicker or food treats into the competition ring so the dog has to learn to work on command and praise as a reward only.  It learns to do this by association eg pairing the praise reward with click or food reward before they (the latter two) are withdrawn.

I don't think the person who wrote in was actually using the clicker to train her recall but was using food all the time.  The dog has to be weaned off food as a permanent reward at some point in time and seeing asthough it was getting 'uppity' about its failure to get it, it seems as good a time as any.  After all, you may not always have food on your person as a reward so what are you going to do then? The fact that the dog knows he has pleased you by your voice, the words you speak, a pat or whatever should be sufficient 'reward' for carrying out a behaviour you asked for.

Variable frequency refers to how often it is used NOT to suggest that food may not follow a click!  Yes the clicker is phased out when the behaviour has been proofed but you never ever ever click and NOT reward.  You may reward without a click but not the other way around!

You cannot take clicker or food treats into any competition ring however you can use bridging so that the dog learns that there will be a longer delay between the behaviour and reinforcing food, toy, freedom etc eg by "jackpot".

I know what variable reinforcement is, you reward the behaviour on a random basis only so that the dog works harder to perfect the behaviour in order to elicit a reward.  I also know all about 'bridging', and delaying the food reward, they are extremely useful in teaching distance control.  But the click and the food reward are phased out and they have to be substitiued with some other kind of reward eg praise.  Which is what I said at the beginning of this thread.

once the association has been made with the two you phase out the food and use the click to show that the dog has done what you want.

I understood from what you wrote above that you phased out the food and clicked only, if I have misinterpreted your post I apologise; however if you DO mean that you click only then I will still have to strongly disagree with you :)

That's Ok. It isn't always easy to convey what you mean precisely all the time.  To make sure there was absolutely no ambiguity or room for misinterpretation I think we'd all be writing epistles every day!

My main point is that food is not the only thing a dog sees as a reward and unlike food which can run out our voices and hands are with us everytime we are with our dogs.

In the competition ring there is the added reward of the dog enjoying what it is doing (I hope) and if we take the recall in competition then the dog is actually sat waiting to be called. What we are talking about is adolescent dogs having a whale of a time at the park and coming back to join the owner whether called or not. 

I actually DO always have food in my pockets but that is because I have an afghan, several young rescue dogs and I teach puppy owners.  I use and recommend variable reinforcement with food and toys but I don't believe that dogs should be weaned off food permanantly for something as important as recall.  I will get a better result by feeding my dog their dinner a bit at a time at the park for good recalls than giving them just praise for coming back and a bowlful of food for free when we get home.

Sally

I'm sitting here in the office, no dogs anywhere, and I still have a bag of livercake in my jacket pocket ... :o
:)

Are you near a radiator.................................

I agree with Sally. A click is a "promise" that food is coming; that is why you MUST feed even if you click by mistake otherwise the dog will not trust the signal and it will become meaningless as Sally says.  You cannot ALWAYS substitute praise for food as some dogs won't performe for praise, or a stroke !

Some dogs are not motivated by food but by toyes or freedom; the key is to find the motivator for the individual.

This post demonstrates why it is vitally important to fully understand the clicker system before adopting it!

I do agree that a click must always mean a treat - sometimes the reward may be delayed, but it still has to come.Otherwise it is meaningless and the bargain that was struck has not been adhered to in my view.

Lindsau