can somoen advise me which tyope of dog is best, a british bulldog, shar pei, or pug? I'm thinking of starting breeding and I'd like a breed which is not too big, has a smooth coat and will produce puppies which can be sold for a good price. which would be the best breed to chose? Iv been told that british bulldogs have a lot of problems giving birth, is this true? is this why they are so expensive? would the other 2 breeds im intersted in be a better choice? I would be most gratefull of any replies. thankyou. Lisa Stanhope, UK

Lisa *GOOD* breeders are not in it for the money :rolleyes:

Lisa, if this is a genuine question the thing to do is choose which breed you like best, do your research of the breeders of that breed, buy a good quality puppy, spend about 6 to 10 years learning about the breed, if possible showing the breed and may be judging it. Then when you know a good one from a poor one your can go and look for your foundation bitch from the breeder you have watched for years and know what there is behind the bitch you have chosen.

To breed dogs ethically it requires a lot of money time and effort.  Because of the responsibilities for the puppies produced for the rest of their lives, ongoing back up for new owners, it is next to impossible to make money out of breeding dogs properly.

The most that a breeder worthy of the name can hope for is to recoup a little of what it costs to maintain their dogs.  Some people supplement their Hobby breeding dogs by running a business to do with dogs such as boarding or Pet Supplies, but will not be gaining real income from the dogs themselves after expenses.

Just as an example.  I own a medium size breed that doesn't eat a lot.  My oldest bitch now 12 had two litters which in theory made me a profit of £800 (she had two litters of four pups), now you can do your sums, but she has cost an awful lot more than that in her 12 years of life. 

Her daughter did rather better and had 3 litters, on one I lost money, and on the other two I made a reasonable amount about £2000 in total, she is now 9 years old, and hopefully will live around another 4 or 6 years.  I have just spent £400 at the Vet to have a small tumour treated, and she has mostly been healthy through her life, except for a tail injury last year costing £200.

Now the dogs I feed at bulk costs at 30p a day, that is £110 a year for a dog that eats only 8oz of food a day, then innoculations, worming and flea treatment will add a further £65 and Insurance (or money set aside for vet) £150 means each of my dogs costs me £325 a year, without including any treats, bedding, equipment, show expenses, or boarding costs if I go away.  

Multiply just that cost by the average 12 years is well over £4000, so as you can see my two oldest ones have been very poor business,and I expect the same for the others.

Now the breeds you mention are all rather specialist breeds, two of which at least can have problems whelping, and all three need rather specialist care when rearing, for example the Bulldog and Pug will often have C sections, and the Shar Pei pups often need their eyelids tacking temporatily until they grow into their skins.

The only people that make money from breeding dogs are those with no scruples, who scrimp on basic care, overbreed their bitches, and dump them at the end of their productive lives, that is why decent dog breeders despise them.

The products of their business are sold to anyone who has the money, regardless of suitability, and they do not take an interest in the pups or their owners after the sale, and breed devotees and general rescue pick up the resulting pieces.

The only reason you should consider breeding is to breed for the love of a breed and the wish to see it continue to thrive by only the best being bred from in health, tmeprament and fitting the breed standard, in order to provide the next generation for other breed lovers and yourself.

Lisa if you have not bred before be aware of the heartache it can sometimes bring. I have read some sad posts on this forum about breeding ie fading puppies, bitches that would not feed and sometimes bitches being lost and surrogate mums being reqired.Stories about breeders having to hand rear puppies. This is what is called dedication & love and not for the money.

Jean

forget shar-pei please !!!!!    :(

And Pugs!!!  All 3 of the breeds you mentioned require specialist care, expert knowledge, and certainly in the case of the Pug and Bulldog are not for the novice to whelp, with high rates of Caesars needed.  Dizzy would be able to say more about the Shar-pei.  However, as all the other answers have told you, breeding any breed just for the money is a bad idea, and CANNOT be done with the welfare and well being of the dogs at heart.  Quite simply, making money from breeding and good breeding very , very rarely go hand in hand!
bye
Gwen

The fact that you are asking these simple questions shows me you have not done your research or any research at all??
The though of breeding makes me shudder,all of that work and heartache,no thanks!You have to be a special person indeed to be a GOOD breeder.It is so much more than putting a couple dogs together and then selling the pups 8-10 weeks later,,my mums little maltese accidentally got pregnant by a dog who was supposedly sterile,by the time the pups were ready to go she and i (i helped her) were absolute nervous wrecks,it is not as easy as you may think.
The breeders i know took years and years before they started breeding,they studied the breed,went to every dog show spoke to every breeder and then found a mentor to teach them everything and guide them,this doesnt happen overnight it takes years,so if you want to breed,learn,learn,learn and then maybe in 5-7 years you may be ready.
I am not a breeder but from everything i have seen and read i know i couldnt do it.No-one is particularly having a go at you it is just a little worrying when you see all those unwanted dogs out on the streets and in dog homes and then someone asks about breeds that will make them good money?? Leave the breeding up to the professionals who do it to better the breed and for the love of the breed not just for the sake of it.

christine

You also said you were looking for 3 brood bitches,this either makes you extremely money hungry,a very experienced breeder or you have very high aspirations,i tend to think it is the first one :(

christine

Theres Really Only Little Left to say - there is an identical post, only asking about Sharpeis, with a different email address......

Foll de Roll - I smell Troll!

You sure as hell wont make money out of bulldogs, as you will find they will need c-sections and lots of care in rearing the pups 24/7
and they needlots of attention at all times even before you mate them up. any way we dont need any more bad breeders in this breed
Ithink you should take up needle work.Just think hard about what you are saying, and what you intend to do, do you have no feelings?
how can you come onto a site like this and ask such a thing.DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND HOW WRONG THIS IS.........

Thats rather harsh, everybody has to start somewhere, at least she has asked for advice.

Yes where to buy breeding bitch's and what breed will make the most money, do you think that's okay then because i dont? i care to much for the breeds i own,.

I agree BL, everyone has to start somewhere, and needs to ask questions; but nowhere in the initial post was there any mention of the welfare of the dogs, just money :(
Now that is very sad.

guest are you the same person that posted re sharpei . If so then why!!
are you doing it to cause trouble or have you been told to do it.
I have had a private mail this evening telling me all about it.
. So is it a case of come into my parlour said the spider to fly
.well no thank you.

Mari, I am sure that this is indeed the same person, whether they are doing it on their own account I have know idea, but I do know that it's a waste of space. People get enough sill ideas without being encouraged.

hey,
You know what, I think some of you are soo wrong! I do not breed my self, but when I researched about dogs I noticed that some Breeders such as German Shepherds sale their pups for over 4500$ americans! I mean, I understand the bully situation with the c-section and all, but you know what, you may say you are not doin it for the money, but im sure some breeders do! The GSD breeder in particular was a good breeder / nice pedigree and all but 4500$ for a pup! Even with english bully's I noticed that some breeders keep around 6-9 females and 3 studs and the females are bred 2 a year and they are considered good breeders! And you know what, I also noticed that many breeders "retire" their dogs! which means they put it on for adoption! If you would have kept the female than i understand, but many breeders do that! after the dam is too old and not in use anymore they retire her and get start all over with a new pup! So come one, you do not do it for the money, maybe theres the odd individual but some common sense! Doing it only as a hobby - well a hobby would not pay the rent or the vet bills. If you do it as a hobby than do not charge too much! I bought a saint bernard male for $1500 only for a pet. I bought it from a good breeder, and that litter had 10 more pups and each sold for around the same price or more for breeding rights. Some breeders only keep a female and than pay for stud, well let me give you a logical example, a saint pup was bought for 800$ americans (on average), there were another 8 (on average again) in the litter, so the breeder paid 800$ for stud fee, there was no c-section involved, lets just say for the sake of it, the breeder had to invest on average $1000 on shots/deworming etc. well that breeder eventually makes $4000 on average! and lets say that female was bred twice well than $8000...

I have to say that you guys are just to innocent, people who live in a farm and keep 7 dogs not in the house , but rather in a nice barn with heating etc. will make money, all they have to do is open the gate and let them spend the dayoutside in the beautiful sun and at night bring them back in!

Janet, you are describing the antics of a puppy farmer/puppy mill as you will call them in the US. Breeders have better morals and ethics than that. Breeders spend a fortune on selecting the best dogs and bitches to show and breed, they spend another fortune on official health screening. Breeding done on a shoestring is likely to produce sub standard sickly specimens, and the poor mums of these babies, are regarded as mere breeding machines. Breeders have more respect for their animals than that.

Dawn R.

Janet I am typical of your hobby breeder.  I own five bitches (3 of them are spayed veterans) the other is mature and one not old enough to be bred from. 

None of my girls have had more than 3 litters in their lives, and I keep them for their lifetime.

I have been breeding for 10 years and have had 10 litters and kept 4 puppies myself.  Of the other litters I have bred Champions and CC winners for other people, some of whom have bred on to help maintain the breed in this country which only has around 20 litters registered a year.  A high percentage of our breed over 20% are Hip Scored each year (and only around half of those are likely to be used for future breeding).

On average it costs me half the price of a puppy to rear and pay related breeding costs (more when the litter is small).  This profit would not even begin to pay for the upkeep of the dogs, or even half my show entry fees for the year, so yes it is purely a hobby.

Why should I charge less for a well bred puppy than the puppy farmers do?  If i gave them away for free or charged very little I could not even afford to breed them at all (so leaving it all to the puppy farmers), as I already invest a lot of money into my hobby as it is.

As for retiring breeding bitches and retired show dogs, it isn't neccesarily a bad thing.  Those who are trying to develop several breeding lines and always want a new dog in the ring (and in the breed gene pool) to help maintain it, especially older breeders, decide that they will home any that do not come up to the highest standard (called running on).  Others will retire the broods and stud dogs, and Champions so that they can have a spoilt life as an only dog or one of two, rather than be one in a large family.  Even if you only keep one from each generation you can very soon have a lot of dogs with a breed like mine that lives some 13 to 15 years. 

I have five at present, and would like to keep a puppy nextr year from my youngest bitch, but that would make six, as the oldest will only be 14 by then.  If I had kept the best fom each litter I would now have at least 11 dogs, and possibly more as there would have been more to keep a pup from in the next generation.  I would probably have made more progress in the breed if I had done this and then let some of them go to new homes as adults, but I am too soft and can't let anything past th4e baby stage go.

A very reputable breeder in my breed who has devoted over 50 years to the breed is now of an age that if she wishes to continue to contribute to the breed will have to home the latest youngsters so that they don't outlive her.  At present she has cut her numbers down to 4, of which two are elderly, and lost some really old ones the end of last year.  Not all the broods and old dogs are retired just the ones who will be better off having more individual attention, so it is done for their benefit, and to people these breeders have sold pups to ih the past, who would prefer an adult.

As for prices, My friends and I only paid $750 for a pup from one of the top kennels of my breed in 2001 (from reputable breeders they are $700 - $1000), though his Importaion and Quartantine brought that figure up to £3000 ($5550). 

This was an investment in our breeds gene pool, as he will never recoup these fees back in stud fees when we have such low numbers of pups bred.  So true breed enthusiasts invest a lot of time and money into their respective breeds, and unfortunately off thei backs other puppy producers (won't call them breeeders) make money of innocent uninformed pet lovers/buyers.

Puppy millers often charge less, but some back yard breeders selling direct will charge considerably more.

The best place to find a reputable breeder is through the breed societies, as they will care about their reputaion among their peers.

hey Nursery and Brainless,
I understand what you mean, but many breeders do not keep their old females. There are always the breeders who are concered. When I search the net there are always breeders who retire their dogs and put them for adoption. Not everyone keeps their dogs, and I understand the reasoning, however some breeders keep on saying over and over again how they adore their dogs, if you love em soo much than provide a better home for them! You do not have to give it away because it is in no use for you. Dogs were bred to be loved, to be a man's best friend, not only to create the best show dog! What is the point of creating an ideal breed, when you do not spend quality time with it.

My friend bought a bullmastiff from a very good breeder which shows as well . She did not charge him a lot (also because he just wanted a pet, not a show quality), I respected that because she said she does it for the love of the breed not for the money. Now I understand that you do not want to lose money, but you want to gain whatever you lost on the breeding. I live in Canada, and here and in the U.S dogs are a major business. I was at a dog breeder a few months ago, she showed me her dogs, and they were all outside in the bakcyard in houses. Now in Canada it can get pretty cold outside. She never showed us all her dogs, or the inside of some of the houses. She had I think 2 or 3 litters at the time. I thought she was a backyard breeder because I did not see any fence or a secure area where the pups and adult can spread their legs and run. When we came in her house, she had many awards of different shows, best in group, best in show etc. I even saw her later on that month attending a dog show with one of her champs. I understood she was a major known breeder because when i was watching the show many competetors knew her. Now, she sales each of her pups for $1500. She said in her own words that she feeds them (all her dogs) food that is not expensive at all, not top of the line, not caring about protein level/BHA/corn etc. So she breeds and has champion dogs, however she does not treat them right (from my point of view); You can't say she is not making money. Her breed does not have any complications for c-section, female's milk or anything like that. So bascally she makes quick cash and a lot of it. So you can't say shes not making money from it, and she has quality pups although she does not take care of them as I would. My point is that also well known breeders make money, even though they state that they do it for the love of the breed!

Also not evey breeder had small litters, I heard of some that always have large litters, they said that it is in the dog's gene, and they keep pups from a large litter, hopin that the next generation will have also large litters.

I'm only 19, and I would love to breed saint bernards in the future. I know that I would not be able to make money from it, so I'm at first year (undergrade) at a veternary school hopin that in 5-6 years I will be able to get my DVM and support myself and be able to breed at the same time. But not all breeders lose money, some gain a lot of money and it just annoys me that when you ask a breeder on how many pups were in that litter - they think right away that you want to make money of the pups and that you are a puppy mill. I love my dog very much and we treat him like a king, few days ago I e-mailed a breeder regarding this question: "I know of a breeder who bought a female and he said that because the great great mother and the mother of the pups had 8 pups, is it most likely that the offspring will also have 8 pups?" I never mentioned anything about buying one myself and breeding it, and they breeder I do not think she read my e-mail twice straight ahead answered me that she only sales her dogs on a limited registration and that if thats what I was looking for in a female than I should not breed! I thought it was very rude! I even mentioned in the e-mail that I would like to breed in a few years or so, however she straight ahead answered me negatively as if I was a puppy mill. Well thinking about it I think it was a legitamate question! EVEN IF I WERE TO look for a female pup, I do not want to lose money of breeding. But that wasnt the case! I just asked a simple question!

basically, what I am trying to get at is that you cant tell someone that you do not get money off breeding! thats not true, some do, and some dont! depending on how you treat your dogs!

wow, my fingers are starting to hurt, im goin to finally finish my "speech" and go to bed

goodnight

Janet waht you ahve to remeber that as you say dog breeding is very big business in the USA that good breeder will be very suspicious of the motives (especially contactedby email, having never met you) about breeding, just because there are so may backyard breeders and puppy mills.

Now as for housing of dogs.  A breed such as the Malamute is designed for the great outdoors,a dn most would rather live outsdie, as long as they get time with the owner.  Now no dog can show well unless it is well socialised and used to the human world.

The showing of dogs in USA is very expensive because of the huge distances involed.  these require long trips by air or road, usually a weeks hotel accomodation, or the upkeep of a huge mobile home (still ahve to pay for parking and costs of camping).  A large show kennel such as you describe probably has huge overheads, so no if you actually did an audit they probably don't make money on the dogs.

As you say the ones who do don't treat their animals properly and invest/spend very little on them.

You say the dogs should be loved, and infer that keeping large show kennel means they are not getting enough contact.  How many (especially in USA) dogs are kept as Pets and crated all day for 10 hours while the owners work full time?  We do use crates in the UK, but not in the same routine manner that it seems they are used stateside.  Most people would consider that apart from night time using one for more than a couple of hours is unacceptable.

In the UK because of the space restrictions there are few very large kennels.  Most show goers are like myself with a few companion dogs who go to a show for a day out with our freinds (most folk travelling no more than 150 miles each way to a show), asnd dogs are mostly owner handled.  In the USA if you have a good dog you may need to pay a pro handler to show it for you.

As I have already said Good breeders don't make money, and any thing they do get from puppy sales gets ploughed straight back into their dogs.  Puppy Farmers/Mills make money from uneducated (as regards dogs) people, or thiose who must have now, feeding on the throw away culture, whcih is why so may dogs are destroyed in the USA each year.  Thankfully the number of dogs Put to Sleep in the UK for want of a home is lessening year on year and most rescues are no kill.

hey brainless,
well thats true again depending on where you are located. But what about the breeders that do not show? the breeders who do it for the love of the breed and companionship? they raise dogs because they love them. There are many breeders who do not owe a champ stud/dam. There are some who do it for the love of it, not necessarly for improving the breed. Because they are not involved with showing, they do not spend money on the best food, handling, show fees etc. You cant say they do not love their dogs, they are just not involved with showing. Theres an Old English Sheepdog breeder that I saw and she said she does not bevlieve in the AKC (CKC FCI etc) so she does not reg'd her litters, which means that she cant show - which inturn means that she saves all the money from showing. I would not say that she does not love her dogs, she has mandatory spaying/neutring, and her breeding stock is OFA checked etc.

Janet if you loved your dogs you would spend money on the best food and if you loved your breed you would not breed litters without registering, in the UK you cannot make use of the health screening schemes without it nor could you be as certain of the true pedigree of the dogs you were using.  Even if you did not enjoy showing yourself you would certainly attend shows inorder to advance your knowledge of the breed and study the best bloodlines to use.

Janet, it isn't a requisite for breeding stock to be Champions, especially in the UK where it's acknowledged to be extremely hard to make up a champion. The gene pool would simply be far too small! Many excellent dogs and bitches never gain their titles, partly because Champions can still compete against them. Also in the UK there are very few professional handlers - the enormous majority of people handle their own dogs in the ring.

Another difference is that in the UK if animals are not KC registered they can't be hip-scored - so unregistered pups are even more of a gamble!

In all honesty, unless you have good stock you won't breed good stock - and very few people can honestly evaluate their own loved animals, which is why it's always best to breed from animals which have been judged by a few unbiased outsiders against the breed standard, and haven't been found wanting.
:)

I'm still of the opinion I was when this thread first appeared last February - Theres Really Only Little Left to say  ;)

Margot

hey,
well i guess it also depends on where you live, I mean here dog sells run like crazy - reg'd or not! Well I can say that now I'm honestly convinced that extreme show breeders don't make money mostly because they spend it on their dogs. However, many people do. If I look in the newspaper right now, there are many ads of reg'd dogs for sale, they are not necessarly OFA checked, but they still sale for a lot of money. There are many people who have 1 female, and they stud her, and they get money of the pups. maybe i shouldnt use the term breeders but rather "amatures" but at the end of the day they get the money out of her. They cant be considered puppy mills, because they treat their 1 dog with love and care, but they eentually will get the money of it.

I concluded that PRO breeders will not make money of their dogs -  they breed love of the breed, but a higher precentage of people make money of their dogs.

If I would want to buy an english bulldog right now, the price in Canada runs between $2000-$2500. Most amatures sell it for the same price as a presetigous breeder. The amature does not check their dam for thyroid/hip/eye etc, but the prestegious breeder does and they sell for the same price. So the breeder may not make money but the amature does selling to people who just want a pet for their lovely daughter.

The answer w2ould be for potential puppy buyers to be better educated so that they would only patronise good breeders, and put the puppy mills out of business.  anyone breeding from their pet bitch whoudl understand the huge responsibility they are taking on when they allow her to ahve pups, as they shoudl be responssible for the pusp lifelong, and take back at any age the ones they have bred, few casual breeders do this.

I would say there are 3 main types of people who breed pups. a)The knowledgeable dedicated breed person, b) The commercial breeder breeding as a cash crop only (Puppy Mill/back yard breeeder), c) Casual Pet owner who doesn't realise the responsibilities, or doesn't think they apply to them, as they are not really a breeder (but anyone allowing their bitch to breed is responsible for thsoe pups).

Most harm to the breeds and good breeders reputaions  is done byt the second, purely from the volume, but the last category are also responsible for pups bought on a whim ending up in shelters and often destroyed.

I adopted a dog about 17 years ago because she was not show quailty and for breeding but she was a lovely dog and we had her fo 11years there lose was my gain

And at least you had good breeding behind her and she was probably far better quality thatn some of the examples you have seen from poor sources.

It should be pointed out that what one person considers show quality another won't.  This usually depends on your expectations. 

My first bitch (her litter btother was a Champion) usually was placed in her classes at ch shows, often in the first three, but won rarely, she did gain her stud book number. 

I don't think her daughter ever won a class above Post Graduate at Champ shows, though always placed in top half of any class.  It wasn't until my third one that I had a competitive bitch who had more 2nds than firsts, but did win out of Post Graduate, and has a RCC, and now as a Veteran rarely is unplaced in Open classes. 

At this point in time I would not choose to retain the first two if they were in a future litter I breed, I would let them go as Pets, but not if I had already run them on, as I am too sentimental to do that.  Therefore I am destined to probably go backwards in my own show career once or twice down the line, but if I let go a nice one and it does well for someone else that is just as pleasing.

You can see the difference in overall quality of a breed when you compare the popular exploited ones, and those that have gone largely unoticed, and most litters are bred by knowledgeable people looking to improve on the parent stock, or amintain the high quality they ahve established.

Many breeds like my own you would be hard to placed to find an entirely poor one in the way I have seen with some breeds where even as a complete outsider I could see that they were poor quality. 

This is one reason in my breed that a dog down the line at one show can win at another because the differences in quality are really those of interpretation of the standard.  We are talking type here, think one can never be complacent about health and movement/construction.

I have seen some exhibits at Open shows in popular breeds that would never even be considered for Championship shows, and at Ringcraft some folk have very quickly realised that their dog the Vet/neighbour/person in the park had said was show quality, was anything but.  They usually continue to bring their dog for the fun of chatting to doggy folk, and often end up getting a nice pup from a show bred litter a while down the line after having learnt with their first dog.