I know that a GSD pup shouldn't get more than about 26% protein in their food because of rapid bone development issues etc.

But is there a minimum recommended level too?

We have Ossie on a low protein food (he is doing great on it) due to his hyperactivity and it would be easiest to put the pup on it too. But the food is 18.5% - is this too low?

Burns do a puppy version of their food which is 21%.

Just want to get things right from the start!

Jayne

Hi Jayne, you might find the following of interest :)

>
>
> PROTEIN AMOUNTS
>
> AND THE AFFECT ON GROWTH IN PUPPIES
>
>
>
> By
>
> Lew Olson,
>
> PhD Natural Health, LMSW-ACP
>
>
>
> January 2004
>
> Happy New Year!
>
>
>
> Protein and Puppies
>
>
>
> The issue of protein in puppies and growing dogs has become very
> controversial and various sources often give conflicting advice. Protein is

often blamed

> for many orthopedic problems in growing puppies, including hip and elbow
> dysplasia, OCD and Panosteitis. As a result of excessive protein being blamed
> for these joint issues, it is often recommended to feed less protein to
> puppies, especially large breeds.
>
>
>
> http://www.pedigreebreeder.com.au/features/nutrition/default.asp?s=2
>
> "Protein nutrition is obviously still not completely understood, however it
> is an essential part of every dog's diet. You can't give too much protein in
> your dog's diet; however quality not quantity makes the difference."
>
>
>
> The above referenced article does not show protein as a problem, but rather
> states the importance of it in a dog's diet. The need for a high quality
> protein is explored in puppies and throughout all stages of a dog's life.

While

> the article admits that not everything is known about protein and dogs,
> excess protein is not a problem given in amounts greater than recommended, as
> long as the quality of the protein is good.
>
>
>
> To further confuse the issue, dog food companies are not only selling puppy
> diets, they have expanded their product lines to include large breed puppy
> diets. What I would like to explore in this newsletter is the validity of
> these concepts and the effects of protein on bone growth.
>
>
>
> Large-Breed Puppies
>
>
>
> http://www.purina.com/breeders/magazine.asp?article=256
>
> "Dietary protein requirements are much higher for growing puppies than for
> fully grown dogs. In addition to supplying the protein needed to support
> protein turnover and normal cellular metabolism, protein is needed to build
> growing muscles and other tissues."
>
>
>
> "Research at the Purina Pet Care Center and at other facilities has shown
> that puppies fed inadequate protein do not grow as well and are more
> susceptible to health problems than those fed nutritionally complete diets. At

the Pet

> Care Center, English setter puppies that were fed a low-protein diet showed
> stunted growth compared to puppies fed higher levels of protein. However, when

> the protein level was increased in the puppies at the Pet Care Center, the
> deficiency was corrected."
>
>
>
> "Concern about protein causing developmental bone problems in large-breed
> puppies has led some breeders to reduce the amount of protein they fed.
> However, in research published in 1993 based on studies of Great Dane puppies

at

> Utrecht University in the Netherlands, it was shown that dietary protein does
> not contribute to these problems."6
>
>
>
> "Herman A. Hazewinkel, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at
> Utrecht University, led the research that found no detrimental effects from
> protein levels up to 32 percent of the diet. However, puppies fed a diet of

only

> 15 percent protein showed evidence of inadequate protein intake."
>
>
>
> "Too low protein decreases the growth rate of puppies and also their
> immunological response," Hazewinkel says. "This is true for large- and

small-breed

> puppies. An adequate protein level should be higher than 15 percent."
>
>
>
> "This study, conducted in young Great Danes during their first half-year of
> life, concluded that dietary protein increased to 32 percent does not
> negatively affect skeletal or cartilage development in these dogs. The

research also

> confirmed that dietary protein did not have detrimental effects on liver and
> kidney functioning."
>
>
>
> So the conclusion of the above referenced research stresses the need for
> high quality protein to achieve the best growth and immune systems. No proof

was

> found that protein amounts affect skeletal growth in any adverse, except
> when using too little or too poor quality.
>
>
>
> http://www.eukanuba-eu.com/Portugal/dx3.htm
>
> This article reiterates that high protein does not cause OCD or HD, in
> either the hips or elbows:
>
>
>
> Research into the growth of Great Danes (Nap RC, The Netherlands,) has shown
> that the protein level of a diet has no significant influence on skeletal
> development. High protein intake does not result in increased risk for OCD or

> HD, and there is no effect on the development in the longitudinal growth of
> the bone."
>
>
>
> Additionally, while protein does not cause orthopedic problems, other
> nutrients can.
>
>
>
> http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/iewg/nap.htm
>
> "In addition to excessive calcium intake, researchers have shown that over
> nutrition can also initiate these disturbances in skeletal maturation and
> growth. An excess protein intake, without an excess of other nutrients

revealed

> NOT to influence skeletal maturation and growth in growing Great Danes (Ref.
> 2)."
>
>
>
> This would include supplementation of calcium to processed diets, or could
> occur when feeding raw diets to puppies that are more than 50% raw meaty
> bones. Calcium amounts are adequate in commercial pet foods, and a diet of no

> more than 40% to 50% raw meaty bones is an appropriate amount for a growing
> puppy. This article also concludes that certain breeds may require less

calcium

> than others for proper growth:
>
>
>
> "Disturbances of skeletal growth were also seen in research animals (Great
> Danes), which were energy restrictedly raised on a food with a normal calcium
> level (1.0~56 calcium on dry matter base, according to the requirements of
> dogs as followed by many of the manufacturers and owners for dog food
> preparation). Therefore we now advise to raise dogs, vulnerable for these

skeletal

> diseases, on a balanced food with a calcium content decreased to 0.8 or 0.9%

on

> dmb (dry matter basis)."
>
>
>
> Further, the above article goes on to state:
>
>
>
> "Therefore it is advised not to feed young dogs ad libitum or excessively,
> to prevent the development of (causative factors for) osteoartrosis. It is
> also common practice to advise a weight loosing programme to those dogs which
> suffer from osteoarthrosis as an aspect of conservative treatment or as an aid

> in surgical treatment of dogs with ED."
>
>
>
> It is not excess protein that causes joint problems, but over feeding dogs
> can contribute to arthritis and orthopedic problems. Please note that most
> orthopedic and joint problems are inherited, but puppies and dogs that are

over

> weight have a greater chance of an increase in pain and discomfort, and the
> potential of developing orthopedic problems as younger animals and arthritis
> later on in their life.
>
>
>
> And while some nutritionists recommend feeding more fiber than meat and
> protein for weight gain, this can also have consequences, as it can block
> absorption:
>
>
>
> http://www4.nas.edu/news.nsf/isbn/0309086280?OpenDocument
>
> "The most obvious way to help a dog trim down is to feed it smaller amounts
> of food on its regular feeding schedule, and to make sure the dog is not
> being fed table scraps or getting into the food bowls of other dogs in the
> neighborhood. Owners may also choose a low-calorie "diet" dog food or food

high

> in fiber, which may help the dog feel full without consuming too many
> calories. Too much fiber, however, can reduce the absorption of important
> nutrients."
>
>
>
> In conclusion, a logical response to feeding puppies would include:
>
>
>
> -Use high quality proteins:
>
>
>
> These include using premium brands of dog food, or if feeding a raw or home
> cooked diet, use as much variety in animal proteins as possible. Don't skimp
> on the amount of proteins fed as these contribute to healthy growth, organ
> health and strong immune systems.
>
>
>
> -Keep puppies and growing dogs lean.
>
>
>
> Overweight and obese dogs have a much higher chance of developing arthritis
> and orthopedic problems.
>
>
>
> -Don't overdose the Calcium:
>
>
>
> Do not supplement with calcium if you use a commercial diet. For raw diets,
> use 50% or less of raw meaty bones in growing dogs. For home cooked diets,
> supplement at no more than 800 milligrams per pound of food served.
>
>
>
> -Don't use high fiber diets for weight reduction:
>
>
>
> Fiber, starches and grains can actually block certain nutrient uptake from
> the food served.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
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>
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>
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>
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Christine, Spain.

Guess I'm old fashioned C but it would take a lot to convince me that high protein levels are needed or desirable for puppies. It seems very strange that the number of puppies suffering from OCD seems to have snowballed since specialist puppy foods hit the streets. I had just this argument with a Waltham's Dietician at Crufts some years ago. She literally accused me of being cruel to my dogs by not feeding her all singing all dancing puppy food! I apprecate that protein is not the whole story, artificial colouring and other addatives play a big part. Back in the days when feeding on table scraps was the norm OCD was virtually unheard of!

Best wishes, John

With you there John, in the days back then, it was called 'steaming' well it was in my neck of the wood, no idea why. Think pups need a balance diet but the important thing is they need quality protein and 18 to 20% is plenty. Protein mostly from grain causes hyper behaviour so stick to a diet where the protein is at least equally divided between a quality grain like rice and flesh.

Christine, can't read your post the words are merging into the background, is it just me, do my screen or my glasses need changing?

Hi Jackie, I had to copy it but I don`t have a clue why it`s all gone pale, sorry! 
I couldn`t even get on here earlier & when I did I couldn`t get the links working so maybe to do with the board?

Chrisitne, Spain.

I could not get on either, so it was not directed at you.

Ah but John I think the end message is high quality digestable protein ;) :D I think those links are put on purely because the manu`s are the only people who can afford to do trials & getting the point across the importance of high quality protein.
I had a few words with the Waltham feller in UK a few yrs ago as well, told me how well his ch?? dog did on it too.....but didn`t/couldn`t answer any of my questions on the high incidence of OCD etc we have now.

Christine, Spain.

Protein levels on commercial dog food labels only tell you the Crude Protein level.  Not the source, quality, or bio availability!

Unless your dog can use the protein source it matters little the %age!  No dog can utilise the protein from leather, hair etc!

Wolves, foxes etc manage to grow from puppies to full size adults on the same level of protein all their life; as do lions, tigers etc :D

Cereal based protein is incomplete and must have added amino acids (also beware maize is particularly deficient in tryptophan).  Soya is "complete" but causes gas.  Meat is complete but some amino acids etc are destroyed by cooking.