Hello, all.

I'd like to put together a hypothetical breeder's financial statement sheet for expenditures on breeding a hypothetical litter. For the report, I'm going to use an average price of £400 per puppy and an average litter size of 7 unless someone wants to suggest a more appropriate litter size.

What I would like is input from those of you who do testing on your dogs for hips, eyes, VwD, heart, etc. I'd like to look at it from three different standpoints: a litter bred from two dogs with average testings done on most breeds (so we may have to do some averaging since some breeds just do hips and eyes and others have to do a whole lot more); a litter bred from a poodle bitch and labrador stud (both of whom have been tested for appropriate genetic problems); and a litter produced from two dogs with no testing where the person (or a friend) owns both dogs.

I need to know what you recommend testing for and what the average prices are for that testing.

Other things to be considered are vaccinations, docking costs (let's not get into a docking debate and just look at the overall purpose which is to produce some charts), pre-whelping costs such as physical and scan, whelping costs such as whelping box, bedding, lighting, etc., emergency costs such as c-section or vet-assisted whelping, toys, special weaning foods, etc.

Please feel free to email me with your thoughts and input if you don't want to list it here. I will make the charts available to whoever wishes to put them on their sites for comparitive breeding methods.

Thanks so much for your help.

For Labradors it's eyes and hips. Shoulders can be tested but not that many people that I know are testing these at the moment. The cost of eye testing varies greatly whether you test at a vet surgery, (up to around £50) or at sessions organised by breed clubs or individuals, (As low as £13). This of course is a yearly test so on a 4 year old it could be multiplied by 4
Can't remember the cost of "The Flower's" hips so I'll leave that to someone else.

Regards, John :)

Hi Sierra

vWD - approx $50 (or$99 or $135 depending on who you use)plus the cost of getting a dollar cheque, say £12 and postage

Eyes - single dog £25.50 + travelling (some breeds annually some, like Dobes, only once)
Puppies (up to 5) - £24.10 plus £5 each = £34.10 for the litter + travelling
Hips -waiting for bill as I had Maverick done a couple of weeks ago.+ plus travelling
(I see in DW today that these prices are going up next month)

Thyroid - varies - say around £35

Heart testing (annually) - got a price for single dog today for Dobbler Echocardiogam of £152!

Auscultation - between £7.50 and £15 if done at a group session

Christine

Okay, I'm getting all the figures together. What is the cost of Kennel Club litter registration and do most of you individually name each puppy and register it individually prior to sale?

Next question is: would you like these litters house-reared or kennel reared? In other words, would you like expenses for building a kennel included? Also, for house reared puppies, do you use puppy pens over here?

Next question: How many of you tattoo the litter prior to sale? And, does anyone know what the cost is to tattoo an entire litter?

I'm still looking for hip scoring figures; I have one of £84.60 and will call my vet on Monday to see what he charges. Unless anyone has a strenuous objection, I am not including food costs, other than the extra food consumed by the bitch in whelp and post-whelp and the puppies. Every dog has to eat after all during the normal course of its life.

Also, since we are assuming that one of the litters is shown or worked: Does anyone want to share field training expenditures or ringcraft? Also I'll need a guesstimate of what one would spend to take a dog to let's say six champ shows a year and an equal number of open shows (If you think that is a reasonable figure).

Thanks for those who have emailed me. Your input is very valuable.

Another question: How much time do you each take off for litters? And how much time would you estimate you spend with the litter before it is sold?

I used over 3 weeks of my own holiday leave and paid a
'puppy-sitter' £100 a week (live-in, and we fed them too) for 6 weeks.
The puppy sitter was a young lady that has passed her small animal care
courses at college and is going on to the higher course.
My partner also used some of his holiday leave too.
I made sure that they were never left etc.
Our last puppy left us aged 12 weeks of age.

I spent time socialising the litter with trips out in the car etc.
I also delivered all bar one puppy to their new homes and spent approx. half hour with them to settle them in (Also they travelled with their mum and litter mates to their new home so as not to upset them).
I gave all my puppy purchasers a 'puppy pack' consisting of folder, leaflets on worming/vaccinations/pet passports etc and my own puppy advice sheets/worming cert/vaccination cert for the puppy I had done before she left me/feeding-diet sheet. Food that I had been feeding the pups on, enough for 5 days, a 1/4 piece of vet bed rubbed over mum and litter mates etc and a toy that they had played with.

Has anyone thought of the cost of running the washing machine to
keep the vet bed clean....and you do go through quite a bit of washing powder and then there's the tumble drying costs...

It all seems like ages ago now, the pups are now 5 months old.

If anyone is interested in seeing what I have so far for the breeder bred litter, please email me and I'll send a copy so that if you have other items to put on, we can look at them. I'll start working on the first-time non-show/non-working/but doing minimal health checks chart next.

the last hip scoring we did (in july) cost £87.50 for the x-ray at the vets and then it we had to pay £23.40 to the BVA for the plate to be scored

Tattooing is £15 for the litter plus £5 per puppy! A lot of people with a medium or large breed would use both indoor and outdoor facilities to rear a litter, this would require whelping box, puppy pen and Kennel/converted Garden Building and possibly a dog run or more puppy pen panels.

Thanks, Brainless. I'm trying to gear this to what those in the UK do. My litters were in the US and I used a special puppy pen with raised floors and, as the puppies grew, extended the area with portable exercise pens over a tarped area covered with shredded papers. Using your suggestions, I'll incorporate both an inside rearing area and an outdoor kennel area. It's amazing how much we really use (such as heating lamps, towels, puppy toys, puppy food dishes, etc.) that I seldom even thought of anymore. Must be old age setting in!!! I've used them for so long I just take it for granted until I start listing them all out.

this is what I tell a lot of people that only to ever want to breed the one litter. There is an awful lot of initial expense, stuff to buy, so the first litter will come very dear with all the equipment.

if all they want to do is breed to keep one of the pups, they would be far better and cheaper, going back to the breeder for a pup from their bitches sister mother etc!

**Grinning** oh, I think that will be very obvious from the chart that I am preparing.... so I'm really looking for input from everyone

Hi Sierra - I believe you said you weren't taking food into account but we estimated spending £10 daily to feed a litter of nine from approximately 5-6 weeks old. This was based on fresh raw mince, Litterlac or goats milk, fresh eggs and complete dog food. We also spent £400 on a decent shed that was used as a kennel, and £60 on new vet bed. Advertising in our local paper cost £35 for one week.
I also got through 8 rolls of film, plus processing, one cassette for a borrowed camcorder. Theres refreshments for prospective purchasers. £10 each puppy to register with the KC. £15 to register the litter with the breed club puppy register. Are you including stud fees and travelling costs?
It makes me quite cross when people ask me if I made much money out of my puppies.
Lorna

These are exactly the kind of costs I'm looking for. My last litter was six years ago (I've been here for over two years) so I have forgetten all the 'little bits' that we spend money on. I do want to take puppy food and extra food for the dam into account, but not the food costs up to that point. Unless someone feels that it would be good to show the difference in feeding premium foods versus the grocery store foods that a lot of 'casual breeding' dogs get fed.

P.S. Am also looking for figures on ringcraft or field classes and reasonable showing or field trialing costs for the four years prior to breeding for the one chart.

I know that food and upkeep for the rest of the dogs doesn't really count, but most of us use the money from any puppy sales to enable us to keep the rest of the dogs in the neccessary, thereby offsetting the cost of keeping more dogs than the average pet owner. I get through a bottle of Frontline and 80ml of wormer every 3 months for a start.

When you have a litter bred in the home all the rest of the dogs need to be wormed along with the pups.

Part o9f the puppy price would take into account keeping the 'Kennel' of dogs.

I had also forgotten the amount spent on film processing, lol, and Stastionery items, printer Ink.

Hi Sierra, I'm not yet into trialling, but I know to even get an entry you need to belong to several clubs. Subs are around £10 per year and I know several people who belong to at least 10 clubs. I'm not sure what the entry fees are, but travelling costs would, I presume, be fairly substantial. Training classes vary between £2-£5 per class and £10-15 for one to one training. A residential course might set you back at least £200 per week, but this is probably a luxury extra. Many new breeders will want to have their own affix. To register an affix is £40 plus £15 per year maintenance with the KC.
Lorna

Thanks, Lorna. I've tossed the charts up on a freebie website to make it easier to get more input; it was easier and safer for everyone than to email from person to person. I included the affix cost and maintenance on the breeder charts, but not on the puppy-raiser (the 'I just want to get a duplicate of my dog' or the 'she is so sweet-tempered, everyone wants a puppy') or the design-a-dog charts. It's interesting that one must belong to clubs before even getting an entry in the trialling arena. Field trials are politically bad in the US, but not that bad.

Come on Siera the web addresses! I want to have a look :D

Please take a look at the charts and give me your input. Remember they are in very rough form at the moment. I'm working on an article to go with it and once the charts are completed, they will be available to anyone who wishes to use them on their sites with appropriate notations.

Registration of Affix £45 :-)

John,
Do they not do elbows on labs over here?

It's been on the list for a few years now Sierra but as yet not that many people, in my experience, are testing. Was talking to some working people a couple of months ago about just that and I think the percentage of those was around 30%. What I will say is that the percentage is rising which when you bare in mind the time we've been testing for, (I guess someone will put me right but I don't think its more than 4 or 5 years) I suppose is about what you could expect.

Regards, John

John, sorry it's me again asking daft questions. What do they test shoulder for? Jackie H

Technically Jackie, it’s not shoulder, it’s elbows and is described by the BVA as Elbow Displasia. It is ex-raying for OCD (Osteochondritis Dissecans), FCP (Fragmented or Ununited Coronoid Process) and UAP (Ununited Anconeal Process). The plates are graded 0 to 3, 0 is clear, 1 mild, 2 Moderate and 3 severe. It’s been known about since the late 1960’s and in 1997 the BVA, AWF, AHT and the RSPCA held a symposium to discuss the problem and come up with ideas on how to tackle it. It’s had quite a slow start over here (To my knowledge) but is now just beginning to catch on.

Regards, John

Thanks, John, for the information. I know that it was routine with my vet, who was one of the specialist at a veterinary college, to do elbows also. I believe that the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) in the US has been rating them for a number of years now, therefore my question.

Yes I noticed when I did OFA searches on some Elkhounds that it has shon Elbows 'normal' for the last few years, assuming they were normal of course :D

no tests as such for the sharpei, although a few breeders have had theres hip scored ,but its not asked for, the only extra we often have is that when pups should open their eyes at around 12 days ,sometimes they cant because of the weight of the brow wrinkle, if this happens then they need to be tacked, specialist vets do this procedure, it consists of having the skin above the lid tacked to a wrinkle in the brow, this stays in a week or so ,it gives the head a chance to grow into the wrinkle, theres very little chance of needing it done again after this, if its done properly. although sometimes it needs attention again, the vet i use is in derby, im in the north, for around 4 pups the bill is about £100 ,plus whatever eye creams you need and of course the petrol ontop, other than that its the same as everyone else, heating, rearing etc, although you cant get away with a cheaper food for sharpei and need to be careful what you feed them, they dont do well on high protien.

Thanks John, I did know about elbows having Newfoundlands in the family, but knowing the shoulder was not a joint I was puzzled. You are a mine of information and I'm sorry to keep asking questions. JH

Bikes, Booze and Lorna's TT experience now being discussed Here :-)

Hi Sierra

Just had a look at your charts and the first thing that strikes (apart from the dollar signs at the top of a few of the columns <g>) is the fact that the raisers did not lose any pups because of the lack of care (ie only staying up one night!) lack of heat lamp (and probably veterinary attention). As you are trying to make a point perhaps these should be much larger litters to start with?

White Dobermann - no such thing! In spite of how they are registered with the KC's - they are albino! <v. sore point with me and many others>

Looks very comprehensive - will dig out my original accounts later to see if I can find anything else.

Well done
Christine

LOL.... and here I thought I'd caught all those pesky lil yank signs!!!! Your point about the puppy raiser chart is well taken and I'll start with a larger litter for them and notate a loss of some puppies. I'm also missing worming fees and need to check out the ultrasound price since it seems low. Plus I need to factor in showing/field costs since my contention is that breeders tend to prove their stock before breeding and there are costs incurred other than just the med/genetic checks.

I understand your irritation with 'white' dobermans, especially since having looked at pictures of them and having read about them. They truly are albinos and that is one of the points I will make in the corresponding article.

I'm grateful for everyone's input because I would like to make this comprehensive enough to point out some of the breeding/raising pitfalls and fallacies. I'd also like to include costs for hearing tests for Dals as a point.

Another question: Do you think that on the puppy-raiser chart I should 'discount' the puppy selling price? -- we, as breeders, are often slapped with the query of why our puppies cost more than the puppy they can get down the road.

Quick questions Sierra :-)

Was £150 petrol expenses an average and if so, over how many breeders?

Is it common practice for breeders to have a puppy sitter for 6 weeks (6x£100)?

Leigh

**smiling** those are the types of things that I want to hear about, Leigh. I always had live-in kennel help that I paid for when I was not able to be with the puppies. And, I did get figures from at least one person who paid for extra help. But, if those are not common expenditures, please let me know what some of you do. I want this to be reasonable.

I used £300 as an average for one weeks' holiday/off work time since Jon indicated that was approximately the national average. As for the fuel costs -- LOL -- blame him, I asked for 300 miles round trip (twice -- once to take the bitch and return home, once to pick her up and return home). I didn't take into consideration those people who may travel to the continent or fly, so I guess it evens out. But what I really want is to know what all of you feel are fair, reasonable figures.

I still have to add in figures for showing and/or field trialling a dog. And heavens knows I don't want to use my figures for showing.... the last year I showed several of my dogs, I spent in excess of $20,000 (and that was with backers taking up some of the additional expenses). So please, everyone, let me know what you feel are legitimate expenditures.

In my case I had to have a puppy sitter for 6 weeks.
As my partner could not get all the time off he wanted/needed.
(My bitch decided to come into season late, so dates planned
went out of the window, and everyone else had booked holiday leave
for the period that we had the pups) How often do the best of well-laid plans go wrong.......
Also you cannot assume that when pups are 8weeks old
that all will have been sold. (I wonder how many DO think this)
My last puppy went to her new home aged 12 weeks old.
I didn't just let them go to the first people that rang for them.
Each home was vetted, to try and ensure that the pups don't go through rescue etc.

It may not be common practise but at least it makes people aware
of the potential costs that could be involved.

Best Wishes
Kirstine

Kirstine, it wasn't a criticism :-)

I honestly hadn't heard of anyone having to get a puppy sitter in for this amount of time, a week or two maybe. But I do think that it is relevent to the final outcome and how people interpret what is being accounted for.

>>Also you cannot assume that when pups are 8weeks old that all will have been sold

Can you point out to me where I assumed this?

Leigh

Leigh, I'm really trying to tap into everyone's experiences and if I could get some people to post how much time they took off, if they had in extra help, if their partners also took time off, etc., I'd love to incorporate an average.

I wish everyone would question the expenses. It would help make this as realistic as possible. For example, I would never purchase an outdoor kennel and run for my puppies, but quite a few people emailed me and said that they had. I use (or used to in the States) a whelping box in puppy pen (it is a 4x4 pen with raised floor and top on it) for the first three weeks. After that I used vet bedding on the raised floor grating for the next week or so, and then lowered the floor so that it still was not off the floor but was low enough for puppies to crawl in and out; there was a large exercise pen 36 inches high extending the room in front of the pen to enable the puppies to have a play area. The whole pen area was on a heavy-duty plastic tarp with shredded newspapers in the play area. It meant a lot of washing and drying of vet bedding.

Puppy pen is in the neighborhood of $250; exercise pens around $90 each (and if the litter was harge, I would put two pens together. Plus I kept an exercise pen set up outside for the puppies to be taken out to play.... normally four or five pens placed together which could be moved about to permit shade when it was sunny, sun when it was cool, etc. Plus add in a portable canopy (priced out at around $200) that could be put over the exercise yard in case of rain so that the puppies would still have a dry area to play.

Hence, my need for additional help. I wouldn't expect anyone else to go through that, but it worked for me. Plus the exercise pens were also used for dog shows in our set-up area. Of course, they had to be sterilized prior to being used with the puppies.

So I looked at the purchase of an outdoor pen and kennel area and averaged out what I paid versus what the kennels were on the web and figured it was a wash.

I'm working on an article with some of my explanations in it. As I said, I'm not new to breeding, but I am new to the way it is done here in the UK and gratefully accept all suggestions.

P.S. I normally would give at no cost a puppy to a breeder that I respected and trusted, and it was reciprocated. That way we blended lines that we liked into ours and expanded our gene pool. In fact, until I purchased Mara, I had not bought a puppy or dog (except for rescue bail-outs) in probably 15 years. Is this something that breeders do amongst themselves here in the UK and if so, should I be deducting the cost of one of the puppies to reflect it?

Leigh,
I wasn't angry etc at you. (This internet chat isn't the best to
get ones point across, LOL. so do excuse as I don't mean to 'read' as
a stroppy moo!!) I didn't think that you'd assumed that all pups were gone at 8 weeks old. Just that some of 'joe public' expect that after 8 weeks that's it.
But trying to explain to the 'non-doggy' people that haven't
experienced having a litter, or even the people that
breed because they think it will 'make them money' Most of the people
that knew that we were having a litter thought a) we were going to make loads of money (the average price for a pup in my breed, boxers, is £500, with whites being £250, although I've heard of people asking more
for both coloureds and whites) Trying to explain to them that more often than not you lose money or if you are very lucky you break even.
They just couldn't understand why people bred or thought that you
should be able to make a profit.
b) When the pups have reached 8 weeks they all go to their new homes.
Fine if you've found suitable homes, but I knew of a friend that still
had 5 pups left to sell way beyond 9 weeks old. God am I glad that didn't happen to us (LOL, with three at 10 weeks was bad enough, boy did they squabble...and their mum had had enough of their noise too) My last puppy went to her new home at 12 weeks of age.
Best Wishes
Kirstine

Kristine,
I added in additional monies for food to compensate for puppies that did not leave home until later. I also included vaccination costs. Can you think of any additional monies spent on puppies kept longer? I couldn't figure out how to add in a reasonable 'socialization' cost.... any suggestions?

With puppies that stay with me longer I take them out in the car and to friends, and if they have had their innoculations I will also take them to puppy training/socialisation classes - I pay around £4 a session. There would also be the cost of a more grown up collar and lead (if you don't already have them) for going out and about.

Christine

Anyone have objections to adding in four weeks of socialization for two puppies? That would add an additional £32 for training/socialization classes; approximately £6 for new collars and leads. Plus most cars get approximately 25 miles to the gallon (?) at £3.30 per gallon. Figuring four weeks of going to training classes 15 miles each way is 120 miles, five gallons or £16.50.

We could get very intensive here and use at least £1/hour of our time spent cleaning, feeding, socializing puppies. Anyone out there have any idea of how many hours you really do spent on a litter? I'll bet that if you think about it, it would be mind-boggling.

Sierra

Unfortunately you could not put down 25 hours a day which is what if often feels like when you have fed, watered, cleaned up, played with, done washing, done washing again after it has been pulled off line, replanted the garden, chased down and caught the chickens which spread to the four winds, had big sister's ear stiched where puppy swung off and ripped it etc etc <g>

Christine

LOL...isn't that the truth?!!!

Hi, this is all riveting!! The only other thing I can think of that I notice is the increase in electricity bills, when I have a litter the quarterly bill is at least £80 higher in the winter and perhaps £50 in the summer - they still have heat 24 hours a day in the summer for at least 3 weeks, and at night. Sometimes it is warm enough during the day to have the heat off - which is rare because the kennel is well insulated and keeps warmth out as well as the extreme cold! I used to have a doggy fridge/freezer too, and that needs electricity, as well as the constant washing of vet beds. Has anyone mentioned phone calls? Although now I do a fair bit by e mail, because I am rarely indoors to answer the phone, I am always having to ring clients back, and as puppies are usually pre-booked or booked early on, this can go on for many many weeks. I rarely need to advertise these days, but when I was starting off I used to spend at least £100 per litter on advertising, and if I ever had to keep one puppy on for weeks due to a cancellation, I could easily spend another £100 on just advertising that one that was left. I probably spend about 1 1/2 hours 4 or 5 times a day with mum and puppies up till 3 weeks, and then they are in the house all day, and although I can get on with some housework, I still have one eye constantly on them for house training and spend a lot of time just sitting and playing with them. I try to take a pup on the 2 school runs, on my lap, in the car, every day from about 4 weeks of age, so each one has been in the car several times. I also have tea parties for my sons better behaved friends so they can come round and do socialising, can I include the cost of cakes and biscuits LOL? I also get through a fair bit of expensive disinfectant, and treat them all for fleas/worms with Stronghold at about £7 each every 4 weeks, ( so usually twice each) average 4/5 pups in a litter + mum . I also pay about £20 annually for breed club subs, though this is not strictly puppy expenses, a breeder should be a member of their clubs really. I have also recently bought a microscope (£40) to do my own ( I mean the bitchs'!!) ovulation testing, which is great fun, does anyone else do this?

Thanks, I'll add in those costs too. I'll leave a post as soon as the revised charts are up so that I can get additional input. Actually, someone else mentioned to me that they give tea and biscuits to people who come to look at puppies so that is a viable cost. Anyone have objections to £20 for 'visitor costs'? What about £30 for return phone calls?

Obviously my advertising costs may be somewhat low. Any suggestions?

I read the charts :D

Now I just think we need one for the litter bred from the bitch who has just come in season, who will be mated to the the dog owned by the Guy they met in the Park/Pub!

This litter will of course not be Kennel Club Registered, though if from a Popular Breed can still sell for £200 to £250.

There will be no testing for any health problems as after all they are only going to be pets without papers, and Quite possibly the owner thinks that his bitch is perfect so couldn't possibly produce a problem.

This is tongue in cheek folks, so switch off the blow torches:D

Seriously Open your paper and there will be lots of GSD, Collie and other litters bred this way!

It would not be a problem to create that chart also, if you're willing to help with some ideas for the 'expenses'.

What expenses??

Mum feeds the pups until they go to their new homes at 5 or 6 weeks doesn't she?

If they don't sell by then then then can always be sold to a dogs home or rescue!
~~
Breeder expenses
How about follow up costs of ringing puppy owners - I generally ring within a couple of days of pups going, a week later and then maybe a month and then at least annually if not more often. This has been cut down a little as I set up an email list for my puppy people and a lot of us keep in touch that way.

Taking puppies back at adolesence or later in their life - most need some vet attention even if only neutering before rehoming.

Christine

Also thy are likely to be fed the cheapest food, usually not a puppy variety, that can be found. We are talking £10 to £15 a bag rather than £25 to £35! No extras like puppy milk. Old Blankets or sheets are likely to figure as bedding, or possibly cotton clothing the kids have outgrown (teeshirts).

I once met a woman outside my kids school who had a gorgeous little golden coloured bitch of about cocker size that looked like a collie retriever cross! she was complaining at the fact that she had got out again, and had a litter of puppies at home. She said thank God they are going tommorrow as they are Six weeks! I have had hell keeping the wire on the box their in with bricks as they keep tryiong to get out! I was horrified. I casually suggested that perhaps it would be easier sand cheaper to get her spayed. she blythely disagreed, as the dogs home were happy to take the pups, and Spaying was expensive! She had had 4 litters that she could remember!

Okay, folks, I'm going to drop the puppy price on the Benny/Sally pups to £300. And I'll do another chart for the Guy/Gal pups with no testing and selling for £200.

Where can I find the charts please?
Diane