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Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / Furniture- can I sit on it please!!!!!
- By sarahessex [gb] Date 19.12.03 07:56 UTC
I have a 15 week old female lab/collie cross . On the whole she is well behaved  ( well usual puppy stuff) but recently we have had a number of issues surrounding the furniture. We have always reinforced by saying no and off that she is not allowed on the furniture and gave her a beanbag to sit on. However, over the last week, she has freq attempted to sit on any piece of furniture, especially a settee that is not normally used, which she somehow seems to have claimed as hers. When i sat on it she became very aggressive, growling and using her teeth to attempt to bite me in order to make me move. I held her head, tried to calm her down and removed her from the room. This has happened on a number of occasions on other furniture as well.  Also, when out walking with the dog and children, if my children walk in front, even if only by a few paces, she whines, barks and frantically pulls, but is not at all concerned if they are behind her.  Apart from reinforcing no, and rewarding her when she does whats shes supposed to im not sure what to do, and although I sit on the settee, I feel very tense because i seem to get no warning as to when these outbursts occur. Any help would be appreciated!!
- By katie1977 [gb] Date 19.12.03 12:23 UTC
you'll get someone better experienced to give you a more comprehensive answer before too long i'm sure but just wanted to drop you a little tip: our 5 month old Cav went through a phase of being minxie on the sofa - jumping up and then looking at us if DARING us to come and try to get her off. She'd then have started a nice little game of chase-hands-and-nip, which she of course loved :)......but is clearly completely no-no behaviour!

Best thing we found to solve that is to leave a house line on her (1.5m length of strong twine with a clip on) - it doesn't drag like a lead would and basically we can always remove her from anything 'naughty' with minimum fuss and attention - and also providing minimum opportunity for biting or nipping of the hands.

Try it - it really has helped us show RUby in no uncertain terms that we are the boss and she will do what we want, however much she tries to challenge us.
- By sarahessex [gb] Date 19.12.03 12:57 UTC
thankyou-im off to the pet shop now!! Will try anything.
- By akita_lover [gb] Date 19.12.03 13:35 UTC
We had the same problem with our collie cross, he was extremely aggressive towards me, not so much to my partner but he seemed to "hate" me lol. We called in a dog behaviourist, who explained the dog thought he was higher in the pack than i was, she tested him and came to the conclusion that he was quite a sensative dog and urged us to fill a pop bottle with stones and everytime he growled we shook it, or bounced it off the floor, and he now sits happily with me for cuddles etc. It was a very long process to get him the way he is now, 11 months all together. But it is worth it and very rewarding
- By digger [gb] Date 19.12.03 14:48 UTC
Woooooooooah!!  Please, never ever ever use an aversive device with a sensitive dog :(  Some dogs are just far too sensitive for rattle cans, Mikki training discs and similar devices and they can either a) push them into feeling so scared they have to defend themselves, or b) scare them so badly they take days to recover :(  The OP's dog does sound as if she's pushing the limits, but only because she can.......  I would take a house lead, as has been described, and use it in as non threatening way as possible (no eye contact, keeping shouldars dropped and all the time using a 'light' and encouraging voice to encourage her to make the right decision for herself - which is to get off.  At the same time make sure she is rewarded for staying on the ground - that her bed is in a suitable place where she can be warm and either in sight of the family or hidden away (which ever she prefers).  Dogs do NOT look on use as part of the 'pack' or as leaders - they have been selectively bred for so long that any animal who challenged a human (unless trained otherwise) would not have survived long - they've simply learnt that it's best to do as you are told, unless the possibility of trying it on will secure you some benefit, which is where consistency comes in...
- By akita_lover [gb] Date 19.12.03 22:42 UTC
Digger, appreciate your oppinion, however i have evry faith in the behaviourist we use, and it has worked with our collie cross. I agree in some cases it probably can make the situation worse, however in my case i had a good experience so was just sharing that. This is not meant in a nasty way at all xx
- By Sally [gb] Date 19.12.03 23:11 UTC
Experience has shown that aversion techniques do work for some but for most these methods are far more likely to cause more problems than they solve.  Dogs can become aggressive or the more sensitive dog will become withdrawn and incapable of learning through fear of getting it wrong.  It is great that your dog has turned out fine and this isn't meant in a nasty way at all either but there are kinder ways to solve behaviour problems.
- By Stacey [gb] Date 20.12.03 11:48 UTC
Digger,

Dogs do look on humans as part of their pack.  It's the reason why they integrate so well with people and are comfortable living without another dog.  They also do test and find their place in the pack in much the same way as they would in a dog pack.  

I am not someone who subscribes to dominance theories as the root of all behaviour problems. I think that kind of thinking and the corrective techniques associated with it has ruined many dogs and caused problems far worse than the unwanted behaviours a dog may exhibit. 

Humans teach dogs that they are dominant in many ways.   They depend on us for food.  We teach them to sit, down, recall and so on.  We groom them and bath them.   We teach them to use a soft mouth.    We ignore them when they are insistent on doing something other than we want them to do.  We can shape their behaviour in many different ways because dogs want to please the dominant member of their pack.  (Not to mention get a tastey reward on sometimes too!) All these types of things teach a dog that the members of their human pack are dominant.  

Stacey
- By digger [gb] Date 20.12.03 18:01 UTC
So Stacey - how do you explain that in a *wild* wolf pack (other than a captive one, which is what the 'dominance' theories are based on) actually allow the younger members of the pack to eat first.... A subserviant wolf is the one who does the grooming of the higher ranking animal..... the lower ranking animal will occupy a higher place when acting as 'look out' and the alpha will often be found at the bottom of the pile of wolves (or hounds in a hunt kennel) where it is warmest.....
A dog is actually a wolf which has never matured, and as such does not have the maturity to expect a 'top dog' place - however I'm not saying that it's not averse to seeking opportunities to take advantage of a situation - but if this should happen it's safest for the human not to get confrontational.
- By Stacey [gb] Date 21.12.03 12:27 UTC
Digger,

First of all, dogs are not wolves.  Dogs have been with man for anywhere from 15,000 to 40,000 years, depending on which theory you read.  At a minimum, translates into anywhere from a minumum 45,000 to 120,000 generations (if producing a litter of pups every 3 years) for dogs to have evolved from wolf to dog.  As theories go, over that time the wolf-dogs that chose to live with humans had and further developed physical and behavioural characteristics which separate them from their ancestors.  A dog is not a wolf that has never matured.  A dog is distinct from a wolf.  Because they have characteristics which in a wolf might be considered immature - those characteristics which endeared them more to humans -- does not make them a wolf with arrested development.

Second, humans are not dogs or wolves.  Subserviant behaviour in dogs consists of a lot of face licking.  I have never licked my dogs face, although she has certainly got in a few shots at mine.  The grooming we do is nothing like one dog would do to another.  Dogs to not clip each others nails.  They do not brush and comb their coats. The do not soak each other with water and lather each other's coats up with some awful smelling shampoo.  In the case of my dog, dogs do not secure each other to grooming tables and strip out hard top coat.  There are very few dogs that would stand for this type of treatment, unless they were trained to do so. 

Humans and dogs are pack animals. We do teach them that they are followers and not leaders in that pack.  Just as a leader of a wild dog pack would do -- you do what I ask or I demonstrate why I am at the top of the pack.  And pack leaders very rarely need to fight to prove their point.

I absolutely agree with you that getting confrontational with dogs is almost never the best approach. That's what I meant by dominace theories doing more damage than good. 

Stacey
- By dillydally [gb] Date 20.12.03 10:40 UTC
buy some spray that makes your dog stay away
its a type of repellant and it works
- By lilylaru [gb] Date 20.12.03 11:59 UTC
i used training discs with my puppy but she just thought they were super fun and tried to nick them....
Topic Dog Boards / Behaviour / Furniture- can I sit on it please!!!!!

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