As I've said, I am neither pro or con early neutering. The following are various URLs that I read in the last few days about the effects of early neutering.

Virginia Lawrence - Early Neutering for Dogs
Early Spay/Neuter in Cats very complete and interesting even if from a cat standpoint
Animal Welfare and Responsibility Effort
Animals: Shelters Take a New Approach to Neutering
Neutering: Benefits and Safety
Early Sterilization
Illinois Veterinary Bulletin
[link http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=2045340&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b]Gonadectomy in immature dogs: effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development[/link]
Canadian Federation of Humane Societies

After reading pages and pages of articles, I came across only two that were anti-early neutering. One was a Dalamatian breeder who felt that 50 months (over 4 years) was the optimum spay/neuter age and one was a Labrador Breeder and written in 1995.

I am going to print an article below that is quite long, but I found interesting.

NOTE: The following article, though long, is interesting. While it says that it can be found on-line, the site is for veternarians only and cannot be accessed by laypersons. Hence, my reprinting it here for interested people to read.

In: Recent Advances in Small Animal Reproduction, Concannon P.W., England E., Verstegen J. (Eds.)
Publisher: International Veterinary Information Service (www.ivis.org)
Prepuberal Gonadectomy - Early-Age Neutering of Dogs and Cats (24 Apr 2000)
L.M. Howe and P.N. Olson
College of Veterinaty Medicine, Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas, USA and Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc., San Rafael California, USA.

Summary: Early-age neutering of puppies and kittens (as early as 6-7 weeks of age) is increasing in popularity in the United States. This increase likely results from accumulating information on the safety of the procedure and lack of long-term adverse side effects. As veterinarians become comfortable and familiar with the procedure, they are likely to encourage more clients to consider early-age neutering. Puppies and kittens neutered at early ages have shorter recovery times than those neutered at more traditional ages; mortality and morbidity rates
have also been reported as lower. Early-age neutering is also one tool used to combat pet overpopulation, a problem whereby millions of healthy dogs and cats are euthanized each year in the U.S. because they are unwanted. Thus, the prepuberal gonadectomy may be good for individual animals and for controlling birth rates in populations of dogs and cats.

Introduction
Prepuberal gonadectomy is not a new procedure. Veterinarians in the U.S. have often recommended that female dogs and cats be neutered prior to the first estrus (i.e., prepuberal) to reduce the risk of mammary neoplasia and eliminate the possibility of unwanted pregnancy. What is new, however, is the age of the prepuberal animal that many veterinarians are now neutering. Traditionally, female dogs and cats not intended for breeding were neutered at approximately 6 months of age and male dogs and cats were neutered at approximately 6 to 9 months of age. However, in an attempt to reduce the number of unwanted pets in the U.S., veterinarians began to question whether it was also safe to neuter puppies and kittens at an even younger age [1].
Although animal shelters often request neuter contracts be signed at the time of adopting a pet, many new owners fail to comply with the contract. This compliance failure occurs even when financial reimbursement is available for the neuter surgery. In a survey published by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (MSPCA) and conducted by the Dorr Research Corporation of Boston, 73% and 87% of 500 households with dogs and cats, respectively, stated that their pets were neutered, but nearly 20% of the neutered animals had produced at least one litter of offspring prior to being sterilized [2]. Prepuberal gonadectomy performed prior to adoption, on puppies and kittens, could offer a tool for animal shelters that
desire to adopt only neutered animals to control pet overpopulation.

Concerns by Veterinary Profession - Risks vs. Benefits
Although the anesthetic and surgical procedures for prepuberal gonadectomy have been reported as safe, veterinarians have also been concerned about long-term health risks. Veterinarians questioned whether the immune system of puppies and kittens would be adversely affected by the stress of anesthesia and surgery at early ages, and at a time when animals are being immunized against potentially fatal infectious diseases.

Veterinarians also were concerned about the risk of urinary-tract obstruction in male cats and the risk of urinary incontinence in female dogs neutered at early ages. Based on clinical experience, some practitioners were also concerned that neutered animals might have a propensity for obesity or have abnormal growth patterns Until the 1990's, few studies had been published that critically evaluated these concerns among dogs and cats neutered at different ages prior to, and following, puberty.

Propensity to Disease
In studies conducted at animal shelters, puppies and kittens neutered at early ages had no higher risk to infectious diseases than older animals. One study involved dogs and cats from 2 animal shelters undergoing neuter surgeries in association with the fourth-year student surgical teaching program of an university teaching hospital [3]. Twelve of 1988 (0.6%) animals died or were euthanized because of severe infections of the respiratory tract or as the result of parvovirus infection during the 7-day postoperative period. All of the deaths were in animals from the shelter with the shortest animal holding period. Animals neutered at > 24 weeks of age had a significantly higher (P<0.004) minor complication rate than animals neutered at <12 weeks of age, but did not differ from animals neutered at 12 to 23 weeks of age. Minor complications during or after gonadectomy included complications such as incisional swelling or suture reactions, scrotal swelling, cardiac rate and rhythm abnormalities, and mild gastrointestinal upsets. Differences in major complications were not detected among the groups. Overall, younger patients did relatively better than older animals, even when immunity to infectious diseases may not have been possible due to their young ages, or when veterinary students were performing delicate pediatric surgeries.

Growth
Many veterinarians once held the belief that puppies and kittens neutered at early ages might be stunted in growth. Several research studies have now refuted these once-held beliefs. In a 15-month study conducted at the University of Florida, the effects of prepubertal gonadectomy on skeletal growth, weight gain, food intake, body fat, and secondary sex characteristics were investigated in 32 mixed-breed dogs [4]. Growth rates were unaffected (P>0.05) by gonadectomy, but the growth period in final radial/ulnar length was extended in all neutered male dogs (neutered at 7 weeks or 7 months) and in bitches neutered at 7 weeks of age. Thus,
animals were not stunted in growth but were actually slightly (as determined by radiographs) taller. In a similar study at the same university [5], thirty-one cats were neutered at 7 weeks or 7 months or left intact. No differences (P>0.05) were detected between neutered cats, regardless of when they were neutered, for mature radius length or time of distal radial physeal closure. Distal radial physeal closure was delayed (P<0.05) in neutered cats when compared to intact cats. Similar findings in cats were reported by work from the University of Minnesota [6]. In males and females, distal radial physeal closure was delayed (P<0.01) in both groups of neutered cats (neutered at 7 weeks or 7 months of age) compared to intact animals. In female cats, proximal radial physeal closure was also significantly delayed (P=0.02) in cats neutered at 7 weeks of age.

Obesity
Although obesity can occur in both neutered and intact animals, and is influenced by a number of factors such as diet and activity level, there are data to suggest that neutered cats may gain significantly more than those remaining intact. The information on whether dogs are more likely to experience weight gain following neutering is conflicted in the literature.

When comparing neutered cats to sexually intact cats, intact cats were found to weigh less (P<0.05) that cats neutered at 7 months, but there was no difference between intact cats and those neutered at 7 weeks5. Root [6, 7] assessed obesity by body mass index at 24 months of age in 34 cats. Body condition scopes and body mass index values were higher (P<0.01) in animals gonadectomized at 7 weeks or 7 months than in intact animals, indicating that animals gonadectomized at either age were more likely to be obese than intact cats. Heat coefficient, a measure of resting metabolic rate, was higher in intact cats than in gonadectomized cats. Based
on these data, the author suggested that neutered male cats require an intake of 28% fewer calories than intact cats and neutered female cats require an intake of 33% fewer calories than intact female cats [7].

Information on over 8,000 dogs was gathered from 11 veterinary practices in the United Kingdom during a six month survey [8]. In this retrospective study, spayed female dogs were about twice as likely to be obese as intact female dogs. Salmeri et al.[4], however, found no differences in food intake, weight gains, or back-fat depth among neutered and intact animals during a 15-month prospective study.
(Cont'd below)

Urinary Tract Health
Concerns over urinary obstruction in cats has long been used as an argument against early-age neutering.

Gonadectomy appears to have little effect on urethral function in dogs or cats as determined by urethral pressure profilometry [4, 9]. Urethral diameters as determined by contrast retrograde urethrogram are similar among neutered cats (neutered at 7 weeks to 7 months of age) and those remaining intact [9]. The incidence of urethral obstruction in 263 cats adopted from shelters and neutered at < 24 weeks of age or > 24 weeks of age did not differ [10]. Of 70 male cats neutered < 24 weeks of age, none had obstructive episodes, while two of 38 male cats neutered at > 24 weeks of age had obstructive episodes.

The incidence of estrogen-responsive urinary incontinence is increased among neutered female dogs, and there was concern that neutering puppies at an earlier age might further increase the risk for spayed bitches.

Urinary incontinence in dogs neutered at traditional ages can develop within days of the surgery or not until several years later. Estrogen-responsive urinary incontinence was reported in 34 of 791 (4%) bitches neutered at conventional ages, and seven of 2,434 (0.3%) sexually intact bitches[11]. Howe et al., [12] evaluated 269 dogs adopted from shelters and neutered at < 24 weeks of age or > 24 weeks of age and found only three cases where owners reported urinary incontinence. One dog was neutered at < 24 weeks of age and two dogs were neutered at > 24 weeks of age. Thus, there is little information to date to suggest that the incidence of urinary incontinence is higher in bitches spayed at earlier ages over conventional ages.

Adrenal Tumors
There was some early concern that dogs and cats neutered at early ages might be at risk for developing adrenal gland tumors. Such concern seemed to arise from reports that functional adrenocortical tumors in ferrets were often found in neutered animals. In support of this suggestion, some studies have shown that gonadectomy within the first few days of life may lead to adrenal tumors in some strains of mice [13]. To date, there has been no documentation of sex steroid-producing adrenal tumors in dogs or cats associated with prepuberal gonadectomy.

Inflammation of the Penis, Prepuce, Vulva
The penis, prepuce and os penis appear infantile in puppies who are neutered at six to eight weeks of age when compared to puppies neutered at conventional ages or those remaining intact. To date, the infantile secondary sex characteristics have not been associated with an increased risk of balanoposthitis. Complete penile extrusion was possible in 100% of intact cats, 60% of of cats neutered at 7 months of age, and no cats neutered at conventional ages [14]. The clinical significance of failure to extrude the penis is unknown, although it could increase the difficulty of catheterizing animals who require such a procedure.

The vulvas of puppies neutered prior to puberty appear smaller when compared to intact bitches. Vulvar size may also appear small in intact bitches during anestrus or in some bitches spayed later in life. Perivulvar dermatitis can result in bitches with recessed or small vulvas, especially if the bitch has excessive skin and adipose tissues partially cover the vulva. Although perivulvar dermatitis has been associated with weight gains and recessed vulvas following ovariohysterectomy, there is no information to suggest that the occurrence is higher in bitches spayed at early ages over those neutered at conventional ages.

Surgical and Anesthetic Considerations
Anesthetic and surgical considerations for the pediatric patient include the potential for hypoglycemia, hypothermia, a relatively small blood volume, and the delicate nature of the pediatric tissues. Since hepatic glycogen stores are minimal in neonates, prolonged fasting may result in hypoglycemia. Food should be withheld no longer than 8 hours, with 3-4 hours recommended for the youngest patients (6-8 weeks) [15, 16].

Additionally, animals may be fed a small meal within 1-2 hours after recovery from anesthesia [15, 16].

Hypothermia can be lessened by using warm water blankets and by the use of warm intravenous fluids (if used). Minimizing operative time will also help lessen the severity of hypothermia. Excessive wetting of the pediatric patient during preparation of the surgical site should be avoided, and the use of warmed scrub solution (chlorhexidine) and avoidance of alcohol will be beneficial in helping preserve body heat [15, 16].

Pediatric tissues are very friable and should be handled carefully. The relatively small blood volume of pediatric patients makes meticulous hemostasis very important. Fortunately, the small size of blood vessels and the presence of minimal abdominal and ovarian bursal fat allow for excellent visualization of the vasculature, and makes precise hemostasis simple to achieve. Pediatric ovariohysteretcomies may be performed similarly to adult ovariohysterectomy with some slight modifications [3, 15, 17]. Puppy incisions are started relatively more caudal to the umbilicus than adult dogs.

Generally, the uterus is more easily exposed in puppies if the incision is started at least 2-3 cm caudal to the umbilicus (resulting in an incision placed nearer the middle third of the distance from the umbilicus to the cranial brim of the pelvis, similar to a feline incision). In kittens, the incision is placed in a similar location as adult cat incisions. Upon entrance into the abdomen, it is common to encounter substantial amounts of serous fluid in both puppies and kittens. It may be necessary to remove some of the fluid using gauze sponges to improve visualization. In contrast to adult dogs and cats, it is recommended that the use of a Snook ovariohysterectomy hook be avoided in pediatric patients due to the delicate nature of the tissues. Because of incision location in both puppies and kittens, the uterus is easy to locate by looking between the urinary bladder and colon. Uterine tissue is extremely friable in young puppies and kittens, therefore care must be taken to avoid excess traction. After the uterus has been located, the suspensory ligament may be carefully broken down to improve visualization, and a window made through the broad ligament adjacent to the ovarian vasculature. A clamp is then placed just proximal (medial) to the ovary across the vessels using a mosquito hemostat on kittens and small puppies and Kelly, Crile, or Carmalt forceps on larger puppies. The ovarian vessels are double ligated using 3-0 to 4-0 absorbable suture material or stainless-steel hemostatic clips. A single ligature may be sufficient to prevent hemorrhaging in very small pedicles. After ligation of the ovarian vessels on both sides, the remaining broad ligament should be broken down and the uterine pedicle ligated at the juction of the uterine body and cervix with two fully encompassing uterine body ligatures or hemostatic clips. After the reproductive tract has been removed, it should be examined to ensure complete removal (of ovaries and uterine body), and the abdomen should be examined for evidence of hemorrhage. When closing, it is important to carefully identify the ventral fascia (external rectus sheath) and differentiate it from the overlying subcutaneous tissue since they can occasionally be difficult to tell apart (particularly in some puppies). The ventral fascia can be closed using either a simple continuous or simple interrupted suture pattern using 3-0 (or possibly 2-0 on large puppies) absorbable (polydioxanone, polyglyconate, or polyglactin 910) or monofilament nonabsorbable (polypropylene, polybutester, or nylon). The subcuticular layer may be closed with an absorbable suture material (3-0 to 4-0) in a continuous intradermal pattern to avoid the use of skin sutures. Alternatively, skin sutures may be loosely placed following closure of the subcutaneous tissues.

Pediatric puppy castration is also performed with modifications to the techniques used in adult dogs [3, 15].

As with adult canine castrations, it is important to ascertain that both testes have descended prior to commencing surgery. Because of the small size and mobility of puppy testes, the entire scrotal area may be clipped and surgically prepped to permit the entire scrotum to be included in the sterile field. This will greatly facilitate testis localization and manipulation, and does not cause scrotal irritation as in adult dogs, since the scrotal sac is not well developed. Puppies may be castrated through a single midline prescrotal or scrotal incision. Alternatively, two scrotal incisions may be used similar to a feline castration. After exposing testicles and spermatic cord in closed fashion (testes remain encased in the parietal vaginal tunic during castration), the spermatic cords should be double ligated with 3-0 absorbable suture material or stainless-steel hemostatic clips. Incisions may be closed using 1-2 buried interrupted sutures in the subcuticular layer, or incisions may be left open to heal by second intention healing. Closure of incisions prevents postoperative contamination with urine or feces, and prevents fat from extruding from the incision.

Kitten castration is performed using identical techniques as in the adult cat [3, 17]. Care should be used when exteriorizing testes to prevent tearing of the spermatic cord due to its small size. As with adult cats, incisions are left open to heal by second intention.
Cont'd

References
1. Lieberman LL. A case for neutering pups and kittens at two months of age. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1987; 191:518-521.
2. MSPCA Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Spay/Neuter Survey Summary. MSPCA, 350 South Huntington Ave., Boston, MA 02130 1991.
3. Howe LM. Short-term results and complications of perpubertal gonadectomy in cats and dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997; 211:57-62. - PubMed -
4. Salmeri KR, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille V. Gonadectomy in immature dogs: Effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1991; 198:1193-1203. - PubMed -
5. Stubbs WP, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Shille VM, Lane TJ. Effects of prepubertal gonadectomy on physical and behavioral development in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1996; 209:1864-1871. - PubMed -
6. Root MV. The effect of prepubertal and postpuberal gonadectomy on the general health and development of obesity in the male and female domestic cat, PhD Thesis, University of Minnesota, Saint Paul, MN, 1995.
7. Root MV. Early spay-neuter in the cat: effect on development of obesity and metabolic rate. Vet Clin Nut 1995; 2:132-134.
8. Edney ATB and Smith PM. Study of obesity in dogs visiting veterinary practices in the United Kingdom. Vet Rec 1986; 118:391-396. - PubMed -
9. Stubbs WP, Bloomberg MS, Scruggs SL, Schille VM, Senior DF. Prepubertal gonadectomy in the
domestic feline: Effects on skeletal, physical, and behavioral development. Vet Surg (abstr.) 1993; 22:401.
10. Howe LM, Slater MR, Boothe HW, Hobson HP, Fossum TW, Spann AC, Wilkie WS. Long-term
outcome of early age gonadectomy as compared to traditional age gonadectomy in cats. Submitted to J Am Vet Med Assoc, 2000.
11. Thrusfield MV. Association between urinary incontinence and spaying in bitches. Vet Rec 1985; 116:695.
12. Howe LM, Slater MR, Boothe HW, Hobson HP, Fossum TW, Holcolm JL, Spann AC. Long-term
outcome of early age gonadectomy as compared to traditional age gonadectomy in dogs. To be submitted
13. Wooley GW, Little CC. The incidence of adrenal cortical carcinoma in gonadectomized female mice of the extreme dilution strain: Observations on the adrenal cortex. Cancer Res 1945; 193-202.
14. Root MV, Johnston SD, Olson PN. The effect of prepuberal and postpuberal gonadectomy on radial physeal closure in male and female domestic cats.Vet Radiol Ultrasound 1997; 38:42-47. - PubMed -
15. Faggella AM, Aronsohn MG. Evaluation of anesthetic protocols for neutering 6- to 14-week-old pups. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1994; 205:308-314. - PubMed -
16. Faggella AM, Aronsohn MG. Anesthetic techniques for neutering 6- to 14-week-old kittens. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1993; 202:56-62. - PubMed -
17. Aronsohn MG, Faggella AM. Surgical techniques for neutering 6- to 14-week-old kittens. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1993; 202:53-55. - PubMed -
All rights reserved. This document is available on-line at www.ivis.org. Document No. A1201.0400 .

I never realised there was so much to owning a dog. I always thought the decision was between spaying or leaving the bitch entire, now I have to think about when to have her 'done'.

I'm definitely going to have to do lots of reading on the subject. Are there any health problems associated with not spaying the bitch?

I don't know enough to have a valid opinion on whether to spay at such an early age or not, my only concern would be a general anaesthetic (sp?) at 8wks. I'm looking forward to seeing how this topic continues.

Chris

Sorry Sierra, I still can't accept that it is in the dog's best interest to spay at that early age. I have no problem with the idea of spaying but still feel deep down that a season at least is needed to allow a puppy to develope in a natural manner.

Regards John

john I am glad you dont accept its in the interest of a puppy to spay at 8wks . I feel a little bit better now. The endorsements are not harmful I have no problem with that , its just I would not buy a puppy with conditions , it has nothing to do with money either, I dont think I ever made money on a litter , I just love the showring and my pleasure in life is to see my puppies in the ring and to know they will go on , If I have a puppy that does not look like he or she might not make it in the ring I dont register them, I find loving pet homes and I can only in my opinion justify castration and the removal of wombs to save a life.If I m wrong for that then I dont know what the world is coming to

What the world is coming to is an overpopulation of dogs. One only needs to look at all the overfilled shelters and rescue groups at this time and see that something needs to be done. I have found that even the best intentioned people buying puppies or adopting from shelters often forget those intentions when people tell them how great their dog is and they start thinking that maybe they should breed to get another 'FiFi' or their kids see some puppies and start begging that 'FiFi' deserves some babies of her own (or that 'Fido' should be able to be a daddy). Dogs, unlike humans, do not undergo any emotional trauma associated with not having 'children'. Sometimes we can, in our attempts to maximize our love of our dogs, 'humanize' them to an extent which actually takes away from or endangers them in the long run.

My attitudes toward endorsements/restrictions/neutering changed dramatically when I became heavily involved in rescue and saw the problems first hand. I think that talking to Glenys or Chris or any of the others involved in rescue could provide a great deal of insight.

I don't know what the answers are to overpopulation. What I do know is that the medical reports I have been reading points out that there is no endangerment nor is there any temperment or physical problems associated with early neutering contrary to beliefs of past times. Having said that, I also believe that the age to neuter is very much dependent upon the individual's feelings and those of the vet doing the procedure. I will not condemn someone for doing something that is legal and has been shown to not be deterimental to the puppy based on my emotion of whether it should be allowed. If I were to do that, I would be condemning everyone who keeps dogs outside because it is not something that I would do. However (before everyone jumps on me and beats me to a pulp), I know that there are many dogs that are more content outside and that there are many people who successfully and carefully keep their dogs kenneled outside.

One point that you may wish to consider is that (even if it has not yet occurred), one of those loving pet homes may still decide to breed the pet that you don't believe will make it in the show ring and don't register -- they may not care that Fido or Fifi's progeny cannot be registered. And so perpetuates the overpopulation problem. Just consider this post that was put in the 'Guest' section: Never been studded, Male 4 year old, 5 generation pedigree, KC registered, etc
Need to find a female to have babies with? Anyone ??? Many thanks

I don't have the answers, folks. I just know that we need to look at it unemotionally (without putting the dogs in human-light) and think before we condemn.

I think early neutering could be an invaluable tool for the rescue centres (those that can afford it) by ensuring that any puppies unfortunate enough to be born or end up in rescue at that tender age can be neutered prior to them being rehomed and thus preventing them from producing the next lot of unwanted dogs. Surely this is a more acceptable way?
I have heard of many tales of rescue dogs ending up being bred from such as the alaskan malamute that the breed rescue wouldnt rehome to someone because they wanted to use it for working (i.e. rig racing) so passed it on to someone who subsequently crossed it with GSD's. Nice and responsible that. The cocker rescue person who breeds a litter from the rescue bitches first before rehoming them and the list goes on. Actually I've just realised that the last example isnt a good one as it is the rescuer who is doing the breeding!

The thoughts are appallingly terrifying, aren't they? There are some conditions that can be seen early on in the breeds, also, that would make neutering by breeders (through a veternarian) at an early age advisable also. Some of those might be entrophic/ectrophic eyes, monorchids, dwarfism in part of the litter, etc. We, as emotional beings who love our dogs, sometimes forget that not everyone will view them in the same light and react in a knee-jerk way to issues without thinking them carefully through as to all the ramifications. That was my entire point about bringing this up as a separate issue.

My philosophy is that if it causes you to think and re-think and think again, it can't be all bad!

>>I think early neutering could be an invaluable tool for the rescue centres

Bec, how *early* would you be prepared to do it tho ?

Leigh :-)

I personally wouldnt do it at all! I suppose it would be down to the advices of the vet. If the pups are too small or unhealthy then no but if the vet deems that they could withstand such a procedure then at whatever age they deem that to be. I just cant see any other way round preventing the large number of dogs being bred and abandoned.
Only today I popped in to see a friend of mine who has just whelped a rescue bitch. She herself is only about 7.5 months old and had six large puppies last night. She is incredibly thin and I mean incredibly thin not the result of being pregnant but being abandoned. Luckily for her she was found and taken in and both she and her puppies have already got 'homes' (subject to checks). If she had been 'done' when a tiny baby she wouldnt have produced another six mongrels.
I do appreciate Jo's comments about not rearing them in the first place but where does our responsiblity to animals end? When I fostered for the then Cats Protection league some groups were having to neteur EVERY cat regardless as to the stage of pregnancy they were in because there were far too many and in some ways yes its one way of dealing with it but is it fair on a bitch to whelp a litter then have them all destroyed? Very difficult question to answer.

A former puppy owner of a friend decided to rescue a dog the next time. she got her bitch home and wondered why she didn't gain weight but was paunchy. The vet confirmed her in whelp. she had gotten that wayat the dogs home! who would not release her until she had finished her season, and she had been there for 3 months. She was about 10 months old, and very thin. the vet agreed to put all but two pups down at birth. the bitch had 9 multicolured and sized pups. two strong ones were jept and the rest taken away to be destroyed. Homes had already been found with my friends daughter and the ladies son.

the bitch kept two pups to asssuage the maternal instinct, and so that the pups would get proper socialisation, as singleton pups can be difficult learnign canine niceties.

>> ....in some ways yes its one way of dealing with it but is it fair on a bitch to whelp a litter then have them all destroyed?

Why do you need to destroy all the litter ? If people feel that it is *unfair* on the bitch, then you do have the option of letting her keep a puppy don't you :-)

I personally, agree with Jo on this one.

Leigh

Hi Bec,
When did this happen with the Mal? Not something that i'd heared of. I thought that the lady who used to run the breed rescue Mrs Allan worked her own dogs.

Naomi this was about 8 years ago.
Bec

Hi Bec

Is this an official Cocker Rescue person you are talking about? If so, the Cocker Spaniel Club would be v interested in more info - they can & do take action against official Reps who abuse their postion. Sadly they can't do anything about people who just set themselves up as a Rescue off their own bat & do this sort of thing though :-(

Jane

Hi Jane I was lead to believe that the person concerned was indeed under an official breed rescue banner but unfortunatley I could gleen no more information as I would have reported it there and then! So sorry about that but at least I tried!
Bec

Oh well, never mind - at least you tried! It's a depressing thought that "official" Rescue people can act like this though knowing how difficult it is to "recruit" people willing to take on this job, I can see why the odd bad apple may slip through sometimes :-(

Jane

Its happens in all breeds Jane :-( There will always be *someone* who is ready to make a quick $ out of Rescue Dogs.

John, as I stated I am not either pro or con early neutering. What I am in favor of is people reading all available reports, talking among themselves in a reasonable manner and then using the information that they assimilate to make an educated opinion for themselves. From a personal standpoint, I don't believe that one season in the larger breeds equates to maturity. GSPs most often are not mature until they are two to four years, while some breeds like Minature Pinschers are mature by nine to twelve months. I think that this is an emotive subject and one that most people would do well to research.

I'm afraid that I'm strongly opposed to early neutering. I imagine that the majority of the work done as mentioned above was performed on cross-bred dogs and cats. I saw no mention of follow-up on the mental attitude of these early-spay pups in later life. Now I'm going to say something contraversial.

While I can see the obvious benefits to a rescue centre which routinely spays/neuters before release of the animals, I can see no benefit to anyone to rear a litter of potentially unwanted puppies which have been born to a bitch in rescue kennels, and then subject them to major surgery at 8 weeks so they don't reproduce. Better for the pups all round not to rear them in the first place. (Real apologies to those of you who may have adopted a pup under these circumstances)

There are surely enough dogs which have come into rescue later who should have the chance of being prioritised with homing.

On a slightly lighter note - nobody has mentioned the awful woolly coat which makes grooming a near impossibility in some breeds after spaying - notably the Irish Setter and the Cocker Spaniel. Are the new owners ready for the headache that this involves?

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I'm glad Jo mentioned the coat changes which occur in certain breeds (mainly Spaniels & some Setters) after neutering as I was going to mention this. It may seem a trivial point but having spent all yesterday grooming 3 neutered Cockers for their owners, I can confirm that for these dogs, coat changes are anything but trivial! These Cockers used to have the flat, silky coats required for the breed - they looked beautiful & their coats were easily managed. Now they have thicky, woolly "fleeces" which matt up v quickly & are far from easy for their owners to keep in good condition. Vets in my experience do not warn owners of this side effect of neutering - indeed one of my clients was told by her vet that castration would have no effect on her black Cocker's coat. She knows different now :-)

I believe many coat changes like this are more down to food that hormones.....

JMHO

Fran

I'm sorry Fran but that's just not correct - just ask any dog groomer :-) I have several neutered Cockers myself & can assure you that their coats did indeed change for the worse after spaying whilst their diets did not change (apart from needing to be fed less of course!) There is absolutely no way that diet can produce the sort of coat changes I am talking about - a poor diet may result in a lacklustre, sparse coat but it won't lead to the poor dog growing an enormously thick, woolly coat that has to be clipped off every 6-8 weeks!! I wish it was as simple as you suggest ie that I could adjust my spayed Cockers' diet & hey presto, they would get back the coats they used to have before they were neutered but as far as I know, no one has come up with a diet that will do that ..... unless you know different :-) Someone could make a fortune if they could come up with this wonder diet!!

Jane

I phrased it rather badly Sierra. Yes, I know you said that you were neither pro nor con and I wasn't taking a swing at you, rather addressing my thoughts to the board as a whole. :) I on the other hand am not against neutering for what I consider are the right reasons, I had two spayed late in life for medical reasons and an epileptic bitch spayed at two years for the obvious reason. As far as the difference in differing breeds maturing, I've argued this before as you will no doubt remember concerning the KC limit on breeding age. I don’t know the answer to that one but to the uninformed, if a small, early maturing puppy could be spayed at 8 weeks, (Which I don’t accept) then in their eyes why couldn't they do the same with a large slow maturing breed? The vets are quick enough to call docking "Mutilation" but to me spaying at 8 weeks is a far more severe mutilation.

Regards John

At an independantly run rescue center I worked for years ago we would charge new puppy/kitten owners the spay/neuter fee up front and give them a voucher to present to the vet we worked with when the dog or cat reached 6 months old. The families would also have to sign a contract saying they would indeed spay/neuter their pet at 6 mos. or we had permission to "reposess' the animal. We had a list of these contracts that were filed according to their 6mo date and would call and remind them and even make appointments for them. We would even do a door to door courier service to help things along! We would then pay the vet ourselves after the surgery was performed. MOST of our adoptees had their surgery on time but there were those we had to harass a bit to make our point. It always seemed that owners of dogs and tom cats were more resistant to getting their animals neutered! ;)
There was some talk of spaying and neutering at 8 weeks, but the vet we were working with didn't like to spay that early as it was hard to find the right bits sometimes! I don't know if they eventually went to early neutering or not.
Quinn

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Mari, I have to say I strongly disagree with you on your point with regards to not neutering so the dog can't perform. :) As good as peoples intentions are, a dogs procreation drive will urge him to jump fences etc to get to a bitch in heat. It's only natural! Inexperienced owners of bitches in season or even just owners who don't care find themselves and their girl unexpectedly with pups a few months down the line. These accidents produce mixed breed pups which are usually harder to find homes for than planned litter pedigree pups. There are SO many pedigree and mixed breed dogs needing homes right now. Why would it not be sensible to try and decrease the number of unplanned litters so that those dogs that do find themselves in rescue have a better chance at being rehomed? Yes, I understand concerns about hormonal changes in the dog, but I feel that it is far better for "the greater good of dogs" to neuter 1 dog than to have to kill 20 because there just isn't room at the shelter. :)
Quinn
PS
In case you can't tell, my tone is calm and NOT nasty. :)

If the dog is properly fenced in he cant get at the neighbours bitch and vice versa.so there are two people not taking care of their dogs properly. I do see your point though accidents do happen. I know you are not nasty I have read your posts and i must say you have a nice way of putting things, remember the kerry brace :d .... but the answer to that is who let the dogs out who who .

I've seen dogs get over ten foot fences in a matter of seconds. Plus a lot of families have the inevitable problem of spouse or children not 'remembering' that Fifi is in season or doesn't realize that it takes just a matter of a minute or so for a dog to get in and/or her to get out and sit down to watch the boob-tube rather than stand and watch the dog in the cold.

The whole point of these discussions is that some people do not take proper care of their dogs. I see proper care as not only providing medical, food, water, shelter, etc., but also in having medical aspects checked (hips, eyes, blood, etc. as appropriate for the breed), and having enough respect for the breeder that one has purchased the dog from to abide by their decision as to whether or not the dog is breeding quality.

Wish I had a quid for every story that I heard in the vet's office that started: "I didn't know they could get over the fence that fast" or "She was just out of our sight for a few minutes" etc. as they stood there wondering why their dog was gaining weight and looking matronly.

Mari

<<If the dog is properly fenced in he cant get at the neighbours bitch and vice versa.so there are two people not taking care of their dogs properly.>>

What would properly fenced in be? I know dogs who can scale 8 foot fences or dig under them. Would the fence need to be highter, or would it need to be sunk about another 3 foot into the ground? I KNOW people who's dogs have chewed and dug through walls to get a a bitch next door. Stuff happens. In some cases I think it is better to be safe than sorry. I've read a few cases recently on some of my lists - one of which was with someone who previously took offence that people couldn't be responsible about their dogs. In spite of all her own caution, this time round it happened.

Stuff happens to even the most careful of people.:)

Wendy

Agree with this one. I have a Parson Russell Bitch (stands only 14.5 inches at the shoulder) and she can clear a six foot fence without a run at it. I therefore completely paved my garden, use concrete gravel boards and have an 18 inch over hang on the fence to stop them getting out. Thus far it has worked.

The overhang is the best idea I have heard . I was here scratching my head: wondering how Iwas going to reply to wendy , my situation being different to some. I have a quarter of an acre surrounded by 10 ft walls and fencing but the trees are about 30 ft high so the dogs dont have a run at the walls as they are stopped in their tracks by the trees. I know everyone cant have 10 ft walls and 30 ft trees so that would not have been good advice, so you have done this for me , thank you very much mari:)

Ok think I'd best put my tuppeny bits worth in here as a Pro early neutering breeder.

Many of you know I have family living in California working in the med profession so have access on a social level to many 'professionals' they all seem to want the English midwife can't think why lol.

A friend (via the delivery room lol) has her own veterinary practice and has practiced early neutering of most animals (at owners request) passing thru her small animal clinic's ranging from mice thru to dogs etc. She first introduced me to the concept of early neutering some 4 yrs ago extoling the virtues for both animal population control (the most obivious) and animal welfare issues such as unwanted pregnancy with owners maybe culling the entire litter putting a terrible strain on the bitches mental and physical welbeing.

I too was very skeptical about the whole procedure so she asked me to join her for a day at work to see the puppies and kittens both purebred and rescue animals being operated on and cared for. I was astonsihed at their rate of recovery from the procedure it was fantastic to see them playing around eating their hearts out within 2 hrs on average of the procedure - non of my 6 mth plus animals had ever recovered that quickly!

They took precautions to control temperature loss etc and monitored the anethestic very closely - they used the isoflow almost instant acting one that they can reverse very quickly if there is a reaction. The surgery took about 15 mins if that to spay a queen/bitch the toms/dogs took less - I could see the advantage there in shorter time under for the animals.

During her afternoon surgery she showed me animals that she had early neutered some 4 yrs previous (the longest in that day at least) I had time to chat with the owners and judge the state of the animals concerned myself. Not one person could give me any reason as to why they felt they had done the wrong thing by their pets having the procedure done at 8 plus wks. They could see no difference in behaviour etc to any other pet they'd previously owned that had remained intact in some cases upto the age of 4 yrs - one woman bitterly regretted 'putting' her last bitch thru 2 season before neutering.

From what I experienced that day and others on later trips and the research I have done myself both on the net and talking with some rescue workers who've been early neutering for over 15yrs, a lifetime for most breeds, I would have my non show quality puppies neutered before they left me the breeder if I could find a competant vet.

There lies our problem in the UK our vets do not as yet feel qualified to perform the procedure on young animals - although some admit that they do if the puppy needs surgery for some other condition such as a large hernia in a bitch puppy as any pregnancy would put both her and her unborn whelps at risk. I think once rescue centres and charities start to use early neutering as a way of helping to control the overpopulated animals we have in this country all that will change.

Thanks for sharing that. I'm leaning more and more toward the concept of early neutering from my reading and from what I saw at my veternarian friend's clinic in the US. I know that all I have read and seen spoke about the quick recovery rate of the puppies. I think that also correlates with the quicker recovery rate of infants and children compared to adults from my understanding.

My understanding is that the primary concern is with the surgical competency level of the veternarian performing the surgery and of his staff in monitoring during the procedure. Added to that would be that (at least from my understanding) the feelings of the nurses involved can sometimes play a big part in what is finally decided as being 'ethical' or 'unethical' (at least in some other procedures, but that is another ball of tangled yarn).

Given what I have been led by previous discussions to believe is the inapplicability of seller's contractual terms here in the UK, I am very seriously considering the ramifications of breeding here. If I am unable to seek damages for contractual violation (such as in breeding a dog that I have determined is a 'pet'), I too believe the I would be forced to do one of three things: a) either not breed; b) breed and hope that the people that I sell the puppy to are not con artists or people who break their word later; or c) to seek a veternarian that is capable and willing to perform early neutering. Difficult choices.

Again, thanks for the insight into reality.

I think another problem breeders would have with early neutering is the disappointment they would feel if down the line the pet puppy turned out really well and the people wanted to show. If it was male it would have little chance in the ring. Also it would be rather disappointing that it couldn't be bred from. How many of us can be sure which pups are going to be show quality and which pet Quality. I have found the obvious pet is easy but the others can go either way. It is different if you have a breed with obvious mismarks, or if the pup has a bad mouth or something obvious like this :)

I am sure glad that My youngest bitch that I had back, wasn't spayed when I sold her as a pet, I did tell the owners she was promising, but they weren't interested in showing :(

The study done on the 3 groups of male mixed breed pips neutered at 7 weeks 7 months and left entire is interesting. both the neutered groups were castrated before puberty and results were foundm not unsurprisingly, similar. A more useful study would have been to compare Dogs castrated before puberty, after reaching adulthood, and entrire dogs. I would imagine that the difference between the firts two groups would have been quite marked, and between the #Adult neuters anf entire males not so great. I have not done a study, but know several males that were neutered as Sexually mature Adults, and they still look like males, though are less sexually aroused by bitches than when intact.

Hey Mari........?

It wasn't me! :D

Quinn

ok shaggy

One of the studies that I read had done just that. Sorry but after reading eleven pages of links, I can't remember which one it was. I used 'early neutering of dogs' as a search criteria if that helps, though. If I remember correctly, there was little difference in physical attributes (other than immature genitalia).

Trouble is those studies are on mixed breeds, so the likely look was not known. some breeds have a much more marked difference in the sexes than others. My own breed is a case in point, as are GSD.