Hi everyone, Just heard something today which left me thinking about some peoples attitude towards breeding! A couple of years ago a friend let her Am Ch dog be used on a bitch owned by some first time breeders. She ended up having to raise and sell the litter for them. It surprised me that 2 of the pups (they were very very average if you know what I mean) went to show homes. Well, one of these has just whelped, and they rang my friend to enquire about colour - one of the Buff pups appreared very dark. Friend happily assured them that it would just be a Red. However, when mentioned it to me I reminded her that one of the bitches gr. gr. grandparents had a name containing "Choco Buttons" which suggested to me it might be a Chocolate;). It transpires that this "expert" breeder had been given a 3 generation pedigree, and had not bothered to go further back! Now in this instance all that seems to have happened is an unexpected but perfectly acceptable colour. But how could anyone not fully research a pedigree before going ahead. My mind is well and truly boggled;) Does this mean I am putting in dozens of hours of unnecessary pedigree research before each litter when I could use this "lucky dip " principal:)
bye
Gwen

My dog came with a 5 gen pedigree :)

I know what you mean. My bitch is black. But her Gt Gt Grandsire is a white pied. So although if I ever decided to have a litter I would be surprised, I wouldn't be unaware that I might get a white/pied. I can take Sal's pedigree back about 30 years. But could go back to the 30's if I needed to although we are a large breed numericaly (sadly) being Staffords.

So I would have to know what the pedigree of the stud dog contained, what's the point of breeding a pedigree dog if you don't understand the pedigree? I'd end up going through everything I could get my hands on including any previous litters the dog might of sired.

So I agree with you Gwen, I'd read then read again. Then read it again :D then pick it to pieces.Then read it again.

Karen

i just about turn them inside out :D im onto sites trying to see pics of relatives, kennel types etc, i ask anyone that might know--thats in the uk and the usa/ -------also others sites thats used anything in the pedigree either, i drive myself bonkers with it :(

Thought it was just me who did that. I too have noticed that I am sometimes more aware of what is on the pedigree of someones dog than the breeder/would be breeder. I ahve found similar to Gwen when talking to people.

Few would be breeders seem to know much beyond the parents of the potential mates.

I also think it very strange when somwone has spent a lot of money on an advertisment and they don't include the breeding or health test results!

I do the same - there is an American website which specialises in Aussie pedigrees - which can throw a 9-line pedigiree - so I can go back as far as possible & check probabilities!

Margot (who has actually only bred 1 Aussie litter - so far :D :D)

Well have to say I do the same when buying a puppy, luckly the breed is not large and I know most of the dogs used for breeding during the last 30 years or so, don't mean in person, but I know what they have produced and of, I hope, any health problems there may be a risk of. Whilst looking for a pup I have found I have been more inclined to accept a problem I know of rather than pups produced by an import of whom I have know knowledge.

Guess others would have known about most of the backgrounds of the imported dogs but I felt happier with what I knew about myself. Was not looking at the dog itself but at what it produced in the first few generations.

We are in a numurically small breed with a small gene pool so reseach should be quite easy, but a litter was born last year and when at a show we were discussing it, I asked the breeder about the pups. and got on to pedigree's he did not know the dams pedigree, had not done eye tests even though the dams mother was litter sister to my bitch that went blind ,this was no secret in the breed and was reported to the breeds health registrar I have the foundation book from the 1980's and have added to it hips score etc as they become available and can usually collate a five generation pedigree with hip score's, if they have been done by just being, given the dam and sires names.It would not be hard in this breed as there are few dogs, but it annoys me that when the information is readily available in a small breed that it is not used

I can tell you my Anna's pedigree back to 1870. I also know most of the dogs back to 1960 or so. The dog I picked out for her stud I know and I also know most of his pedigree back to 1980. I also know what he's produced.

If you intend to try to produce anything more than a pet litter I would suggest that 20 years back is a bare minimum to research. Otherwise how can you expect to have any idea at all about what you may produce?

Regards, John

In my breed you can only really research the UK dogs back to 1970/1 when the first imports came here & unless you have contact with German breeders/VGM you'll draw a blank but it is a numerically smallish breed so you know who's breeding what and using which dogs. I have to say some reasons people have bred from I find illogical, no thought as to construction, lines, the lurkers behind the lines etc.

Funnily enough, my best friend Caz says that my brain is wasted, give me the name of a British bred Munster & I can recite the 5 gen pedigree for you!

lily-----i dont want to no :D

Dizzy,

What are you saying???????? That you don't want anymore photos?????? :rolleyes:

Welll I am so glad everyone one here seems to agree with me . We arent a very big breed numerically, and certainly have our fair share of hereditary problems. I just cant believe that a supposedly experienced breeder would leap into a mating without even researching the basics. I spend hours extending pedigrees back as far as we can (not too far in my breed, they only came into existence in the 30's/40's, and into the UK in the 60's. However they are numerically very strong in the USA and loads of data is available. Apart from needing to know what to expect (roughly at least) you can find out some very interesting things to avoid too, cant you? Having adopted Pugs as my 2nd breed I have been delighted to research the history and find common linds between our bunch, for instance even though they came from very diverse breeders and areas (USA, Poland, Ireland and the UK)every single one of our pugs goes back to the same Nanchyl dog from the 60s. As the Nanchyls are about quarter of a mile from my home this was quite a co-incidence. Fancy missing out on this sort of fun.
bye
Gwen

I wish that our BVA/KC scheme data was accesible like that of the OFA. It is very interesting to check OFA stats where they will compare results for siblings etc.

I have been told the same info can be found on SCandinavian Health results with tables of what Studs produce. You do need to know how to find them with the langusge barrier, and then when you have them you need a dictionary, lol

I agree Brainless. Hiding it away the way they do rather defeats the object! Even the BVA website is a year out of date with their BMS!

Best wishes, John

I agree, it is so good to be able to look up dogs on the OFA site. Have lots of contacts in Scandinavia who help with translations for their scheme, but even with a translation it can be hard to interpret the results - for instance with cataract they have a classification for "good cataract"! This sort of means none HC, but no compatible status over here.

Bye
Gwen

OFA site? Please can you tell me what this is?

"Orthopaedic Foundation for Animals". Who run the health schemes in America, rather like our BVA do over here.

Regards, John

Yes I scour Maremma pedigrees and photos from anywhere in the world - they all join up eventually coming originally from the same Italian stock so even dogs that are in Australia and America are useful to understand what has been thrown by different lines. What is interesting in the Italian lines is how regularly they stop after a few generations - where shepherd dogs have been used and the parents are unknown. In Italy the dogs can be brought to a show and judged and eventually gain registration if considered to be purebred - but of course then it is impossible to know what is behind the dogs.

But I am always amazed at how little interest there is in knowing any further back than the parents - even when people are doing really close matings - half siblings, grandfather-granddaughter etc.
Janet

I do a lot of pedigree reseach and try to look at siblings as well as ancestors health results when looking at potential mates for my Dobes. My husband reckons my research has gone beyond a hobby to an obsession :)

Brainless, there is nothing to stop you putting published results up on your website for health results or pedigrees. There are quite a few people putting their databases online now for others to access. There are some breeds here and some here (these can take a while to see) and more here

OFA - Orthapaedic Foundation of America I believe and you can have your dog's results registered with them and put on their web site for everyone to see. Unlike our results the owners can choose (and I believe pay) to have their results there. For anyone who uses the OFA site for pedigree research there are (or were) a lot of spelling errors in the dogs names and it makes sense to check them against those in the AKC database. This will give you a dog's name, reg no, sex and DoB but no parents although these can often be picked up from OFA by cross checking the results.

Some breed clubs across the world are now making their registrations and health results available

Christine

Which is more important when choosing a sire....

The pedigree of the sire? In which case how many generations should be considered relevant?
The type of the sire ie positive attributes which you feel would enhance / counter your bitches good points / faults irrespective of pedigree?

In other words: is the choice based on pedigree or the dog itself?

In reality I think most folk would say both and the skill is in the blend of pedigree and quality.

Some one we know bred siblings together for several generations. There were the 'freaks' which didnt survive but also extremely good dogs where the positive points of the breed were strongly bred into the line and some of these dogs became the top winning dogs of the time and still appear in many of the current pedigrees. (the breed is not the one we own)

There is a well know line of working Irish Red Setters where the breeder has not gone outside their dogs for many generations. But this is not for the inexperienced. You need to be so aware of your line. Any hereditary faults will almost certainly come out and even if there are none the chances are that line will get tired after a while and start to suffer from "Line Breeding Depression"

As you say LD, a dog is more than one thing and if producing a champion, either show or working, was as simple as just putting the handsomest dog to the prettiest bitch then everyone could do it! But knowing what is contained within a pedigree, both physical, mental and medical would make a good starting place.

Best wishes, John

Hi Longdog

I think the pedigree and the dog themselves should come into the equasion - and if you can see what sort of pups he is producing to certain bitches and any of his litter mates, parents and their littermates so much the better.

I tend to ignore whether a dog is a champion or not as to me this basically means two things, one the dog is considered good enough to be a champion and two, the owners have the enthusiam to travel round the country going to shows - generally on a regular basis. I do like to have seen a dog having been shown however as I feel we need this to keep the breeds in line with the standards and this helps to do it.

Christine