Hi there, wondered if I could have some advice, I am keeping two dogs in my outbuilding cum kennel, its all draught proofed etc, but the problem is they are always wrestling each other, being two young dogs, and they are running about in all their mess, and urine, which means I am always having to bath them, which none of us enjoy! They also drag their blankets across the floor and in all the mess, I have tried weighing them down with big bricks but the GSD is so strong he just pulls them away anyway. I can put down a clean blanket and the same day its soaking wet and stinking! Its the first time I have kept dogs in a kennel, so I am not really sure what to do - any ideas anyone?
They have bones to keep them occupied, I tried to give them Kong treat balls but they rolled them all over the place and got them filthy too! They really are a dirty pair, I thought dogs wanted to keep their beds clean, but these two seem to have forgotten that!

well, I assume this is a wind up......why not a) clear up the mess as it's done b) give the dogs something to do in the form of a walk or two , throwing ball, training etc several times per day?

i would put shedded paper in the kennel beacuse it keeps them warm and it soakes up any wet,go out at lease twice day and clean up after them and hose down the area,and take them out for walks,they are depend on each other so get them out and socialize them with other dogs,are the dog in the kennal for a reason eg securtiy or do they work for a security company?

I have resorted to putting a large crate on the platform in the kennel and tying the bedding down inside it :-).

I also have carpets in their that they can pull around if they wish and if I remember I bring this outside when it is dry so they can lay on it.

Get a piece of rope and fix this to the ceiling so it hangs just short of the floor they can tug on it without it getting messy.

I have more problem with them taking their bedding outside and leaving it there if it rains than anything else:-)

Christine

most people with kennels find the same problems this time of the year it is of course boredom and weather permitting take them out more often

Oh yes of course its boredom! Why didnt I think of that!!
They get out 4 times a day for free running exercise and that is plenty, far more than what a lot of dogs get. They also have toys and bones with them when they are in their kennel.
By the way, weather does not affect how much exercise my dogs get, they get the same year round, rain, snow or sun.

I make wooden box beds, with sides about a foot high all around & bed them on straw/shavings then you do not get this problem.

I use Aubiose for the kennel. It's much less dusty than straw or shavings and easier to get out of their coats!

We have kenneled our dogs for over 20years and have have boxes in our kennels, without lids in the summer and with a lid on in the winter. The height of the sides and size of box depends on the size of dog you have. For bedding we use shredded papar which you can buy from a reputable pet supplies, these come in bails and cost about a fiver. There is usually enough to do both kennels. We also have two youngsters who are kenneled together outside and are very playful, so if you swill the kennel reqularly you should have no problem and any bedding that has come out of the bed just put it in the bin.
If the kennel is not heated a box with a lid would be much better as the body heat from the dogs plus the paper keeps them warm. I would not recommend staw, hay or sawdust as this can get in the eyes and cause many problems. You may be able to obtain shredded paper from an offic if you know of anyone who works in one.

Longdog

Hi thanks to everyone for their advice, all except Norm that is, who obviously jumped to conclusions and decided to offer me only cheek! I did not say that I never walked the dogs did I! In fact, they get out 4 times a day for free running in fields next to the house and ball fetching. I clean out the kennel in the mornings and in the evening, but they will do their business in it overnight, despite getting out around 9.30pm.
I cannot give them toys because as I have said, they roll them around in the muck. They have raw bones which I replace every day as these too, get filthy. Its not easy with these mucky pups!
I put down an old mattress for them lastnight, thinking, that will be nice and comfy for them and they won't be able to pull it around, let them out this morning to find that overnight they had ripped into it as though their lived depended on it and it was totally destroyed!
Boredom maybe so, but I can't be walking them every hour all night!
I don't think shredded paper would be an option either, as they would no doubt scatter that everywhere too, and probably chew it up even with their dung on it!

We thought our pups would eat the shredded paper when they first went out on it, but if its in a box they can ruff and tumble and roll in the soft bedding having fun with out dragging it all in the muck. Put about a 6-7 inch lip on the opening of the box and the bedding will not come out. If we put a matress out in the kennel with our pus they would do exactly the same as yours dig great big holes in it and pull all the stuffing out. Try a large cardboard box and the paper (They will probably chew the cardboard) then make a wooden one. Ours love to eat cardboard but have not chewed the wooden box at all.

Good luck and keep us informed

Longdog

Well, I'm just surprised that your dogs are pooing so much that's all ! No offence.....are you feding them on processed food at all? If you consider the BARF diet this cuts down on poo enourmously and what they do do, it's usually white and crumbly and NEVER smelly !

Actually...to be fair I think 9.30 is too late to be letting young dogs out and expecting them to be clean - IMHO - I'm with my dogs most of the day and they also get shut in and get several walks , playtimes during the day, but I do one clear up each morning ( plus picking up once on walks ) - I have a 7 month shep and a 17 month dax aswell as an older collie - they all get let out for morning ablutions well before 9.30 !

I think you'll find that the dogs are let out at 9.30PM and then left overnight. Perhaps you should read things a bit more carefully before you post your responses.

Chris

Well said Chris!
I will try the shredded paper in the box thing, but I KNOW my Shepherd is going to pull it all out - he is very determined when he wants to be! I actually do have a wooden box for them, its about 6ft long by about 4ft high for shelter for them in strong wind, I put blankets in there, with bricks at the back to weigh them down, and my Shepherd still managed to drag the blankets out! Very strong and very naughty! Love him loads though!!!
Any other suggestions would be very welcome - I'm getting pretty desperate!

fine ... my dogs are let out about 11 pm - 9.30 is too early to my mind and then expect them to go all night - not sure why people get down my throat all the time - maybe I'm just a perfectionist - people whinge about daft things and then not expect, or accept, constructive criticism.....that's all it is and I've forgotten about it until next time I log on....come on !! don't tell me you don't enjoy ' norm ' posts ' , !? , he he !! { Grin }

I'm really harmless you know !

oohhh handbag { Grin } By the way, why can't the dogs be accomodated in the house - my shepherd pup and my dax pup and my collie all spend the night indoors....they spend the evening with us, with activities to do - ball throwing, hiding things - they are buggered by 9.30 !! and I have never had probs with my shep fouling since she was about 13 weeks !

Norm the dogs are not in the house because she wants them in the kennels, and if they are as boisterious as all that no wonder she wants them in the kennels.

my dogs are kenneled but they come in the house each day for about 5 hours or so. Not everyone is capable of staying up until 11.00 and I must admit one of my dogs is quite vocal so it wd. be a nightmare putting them to bed that late, my neighbours wouldn't bevery amused. My dogs don't make a mess in their kennel during the night once they've gone to bed, do you have a large run for them during the day as that helps and they know not to make a mess in their kennel?

hay & sawdust I agree longdog, but straw or shavings (very different) are excellent for hounds & dogs, unless they are really fluffy types of course

Do you think hay would be ok, bearing in mind that these are both longcoats? Would they not eat they hay?
I thought hay was for horses and rabbits!

what is aubiose.

Aubiose is a hemp horse bedding. It's tiny little matchsticks of hemp, which the dogs like as it's warm, dust free and any "liquid" goes to the bottom and can then be removed easily. They can snuggle round in it and make nests and it's easily raked up again at night.

You need a lot though for some reason - two bales of Aubiose against one bale of shaving. But there's no dust and it doesn't cling to their coats like shavings did.

They do appear to eat it though. No idea why, it smells nice, so maybe it tastes nice too.

I've heard of horses who eat hemp bedding getting - how shall I put this - 'laid back' <G> I wonder if it would work for dogs too??? ;-)

And I thought it was just because she was a nice laid back clumber spaniel . . .

My dog's a drug addict!

What a wonderful image!! Thank you for brightening what has so far been a totally bleek and miserable day.

Fiona

Im laughing my head off its good to get a laugh now and then think i will look for it sounds good

try feeding late at night so they will be full,and lazy, and possibly not toilet untill morning . If they are separated at night they cant wrestle and play with each other.
its worth a go mari

It might be worth making sleeping compartments that they are shut in at night. My girls have a double kennel that is their bedroom it is two 5 feet square compartments, that have a connecting door that can be closed or left open. i have a bench in each two feet off the ground with Vet bed on, and underneath two dog beds with paper and Vet beds on top. All four girls fo into their beds at 11pm or so, and come out at 7.30 when we get up. these kennels have hatches, which can be closed if they are being silly and dragging their bedding out (mine do that when in season :) )

Who on earth christened you brainless .thats the best advice to Bear so far.exactly what she asked for ,. a help in kennel management .

Our kennels have a sepearate sleeping areas that can be closed but I thought the idea of a kennel run was so they could go to the toilet in it during the night. Surely if they are shut in the sleeping area all night thay will soil in there.
For Norm- I have kept dogs in the house and kennelled and believe you me they would much sooner have their own space. In my experience they much prefer a place they can call their own. My dogs are in the house all day when I am in but are kennelled at night and when we go out. I would never keep a dog in the house all the time unless ill or having puppies. IMHO they prefer it out side! Although I would never kennel a dog on its own

Longdog

Being in town, if I am out the dogs have to be shut inside, in the kitchen, as they might bark, but they like being able to sleep out! Being a coated breed they prefer the outdoor conditions.

Regarding being shut in, as thy get shut in at 11pm, and go to sleep soiling isn't an issue for any of them other than young pups under 8 weeks old. I do always lay paper down on the floor, as the beds only take up half the room. I find this keeps the bedding dry as it takes the wet off their feet. Mind you Elkhounds do not seem to get as much dirt on their feet as say spaniels, who seem to have sponge like feet :)

I actually did try to keep the dogs indoors in a spare room, they ripped all the wallpaper, ripped up the carpet, soiled the carpet, and chewed the skirting boards!
So I prefer to have them out in the kennel for obvious reasons!
I can't let them out as late as 11pm because the neighbours have a Jack Russell who sleeps outside and barks at anything, they and their kids are in bed by 11pm and it would be inconsiderate to wake them up every night just to let my dogs out for a wee!
Its a good idea to seperate them at night but I would be worried about them soiling their beds, might have to try it though, but they will still run about during the day together, and I would not like to keep them permanantly seperated because they enjoy each other's company, so far anyway!
Norm, I know you are only trying to help, but perhaps if you could offer advice in a less critical, ' Why doesnt everyone do it my way, they are all idiots' kind of way, it might be more appreciated! And for the record, I don't think this problem I am 'whinging' about is silly or unimportant as my dogs mean the world to me and I want to do the best I can for them.

Hi, 5 of my 7 dogs are kennelled and have two that are real "muckers". They have home made sleeping boxes with a big "lip" at the entrance so they have to jump in. This means they can have a deep bed of dust extracted shavings without it getting kicked out of the boxes. I have a deep bed of shavings on the floor and a concrete block in front of the pop hole (to the run) to stop them dragging it out. The only way to stop them rolling about in poo is to remove it regularly - every couple of hours.

With respect, I think any dogs would go slightly bonkers kept in a building with no run (you didn't mention an outside attached run). At this time of year unless it is lit during the day, it will be almost dark in there too. This means they have no choice as to where they poo, and are living in semi darkness, they would almost certainly do it outside in the daytime if they could. They should spend at least part of the day in the house with you, for company, socialisation and stimulation with the opportunity to meet visitors. Dogs kept in an enclosed building with no outside access and little human company will not be happy dogs and are showing their stress by this behaviour. I appreciate you are walking them 3 or 4 times day, but how many hours is that compared to the hours they spend on their own. Dogs can be very happy kennelled, but do need access to the great outdoors, to have fresh air ( the smelly kennel cant be good for their lungs), the chance to be in the daylight/sunshine, and the interest of seeing and hearing what is going on outside. Sorry to be so blunt, but if they are confined in an outside building for the majority of their life, with only a couple of hours out of it each day, this is exactly the stressed behaviour I would expect them to display. No offence meant - but build them a run - a big one and have them in the house, even if its just the kitchen, for at least a couple of hours a day. I am sure you would see a change in their behaviour.

I have to say, Bear, I'm inclined to agree - with respect ! As a dog trainer myself, i would say the dogs are displaying behavioural problems and stress from lack of stimulation with you. Instead they are getting their stimulation with eachother and are not focusing on you. I would also be inclined to seperate young dogs for several periods during the day and , if possible, at night. If one dog as much as does a little wee, it can set others off and before you know it , you have a veritable pig-sty ! My poor old incontinent collie, used to wee in the kitchen and my young dax would then wee or poo aswell !

I reckon it would help you, no end , if you could bring the dogs into the house seperately for one-to-one time with yourself - there's lots of puppy training to done in kitchens and sitting rooms ! Also, I would walk them seperately aswell - although I know this is a bit of a fag, it will help with overall control of young dogs - let them run in a pack, once they've learnt to respond to you.

Do try the raw meat diet too - honestly, it's more pleasant to deal with the other end than processed food - not so nice to deal with the start end actually - my other half says the dogs food looks like road-kill and it puts him off his egg and chips !

How many dogs did you say you had? You were looking for another weren't you?!

I prefer to keep my dogs indoors as I like them being around me, they have their own crates and so can have their own space if they require it. They always go in their crates when we go to bed or are out.

I can see why some people do kennel their dogs outside but from my personal point of view (and maybe I've been lucky) I seem to have had fewer problems with keeping dogs indoors than you guys do keeping them outdoors. Not a dig at anyone who kennels their dogs mind but just my point of view and personal preference, probably because my breed would hate to be kennelled as they love to be with people as much as possible :-)

Horses for courses Claire. My dogs would not tolerate being caged and I would never inflict that on them ;-) I started out having them in doors and kenneling them if I went out or had guests. In the end they asked to go out in the kennels, to the point that they didn't want to come back in .....lol They still come into the house, but prefer the freedom that the kennels give them. Reefa hates the kennel so he stays indoors. I have the best of both worlds and so do the dogs :-)

I have also found that this works for the old man as well. He has his garage and I shove him out there if he is getting under my feet or if I have visitors. Then let him back in when they have gone .....LOL .... he's very happy out there, infact he asks to go out there and he whines when he wants to come back in again ...LOL ... wonder if an electric collar would cure it ??

Leigh

We have a kennel and only use it when we are out. Only two of the four dogs stay in the kennel. When I am putting them in the kennel, I tell them "kennel" whilst I am in the utility room and they both run out and push the door of the kennel open and wait in the run waiting for their biscuit.

They all sleep inside and are always inside when we are there. Works very well for us.

Helen

Quite a lot of people do both - although mine sleep indoors - I did actually construct a kennel in my garage in the summer - the dogs use it sometimes now when I go out, but I'm too soft to put them in it at night, as I was intending to put up a lamp, but never got round to it....also, I'm still deciding what sort of bedding to use - I thought about straw , but it might just prove to be another expense - wonder how often it should be changed/how deep etc?....also, it'll probably end up all over the garage, garden and half way down the cul-de-sac!, despite the kennel being enclosed.....my biggest bug-bear is wet dogs coming in through patio doors ...grrrrrrrr.....with a 7 month shepherd puppy that thinks she's a pony , a border collie and a dax...it's not funny when they all do window cleaner impressions on the glass either - I often have to clean down the window just to see what the weather's like - I did enjoy sierras jokes about that ! -

Sounds like you got em sorted Leigh, just what I like a woman in control ;-)

Norm know what you mean about the wet dog thing, my other half is designing our extension and the only access he gave us to the garden from indoors was through french doors in the living room and dining room, until I kindly reminded him we had 2 dogs who love the garden and being indoors, he's now changed all his plans and given us a side entrance ;-)

I'm now working on him to give me a stable type door cos I like em and after all we're in the country now and we have to play the part :D

Hi Bear my poodle has an outdoor kennel which she sleeps in overnight or if we are out but it has a dog flap in it that lets her into an enclosed garden so she never messes in the kennel would it be possible for you to do this? Pawla

Mine have the kennel as their bedroom, and it is used when I have puppies of 5 weeks plus when they need more room than there is in the kitchen, to play. Also four beds in the kitchen just would take up too much room, there is an Open crate and a dog bed under kitchen table, for when I go out (they happily double in the day, or use the floor).

It does have a 12 x 10 feet run, but the door to it is always tied open, except for when there are small pups.

My back door is always open, and if I am watching TV, or nod off I find they have already taken themselves off to bed, and I just go outside to shut the pop holes! My oldest bitch now often goes in there in the day to get away fr4om it all, especially after a long walk, or when the younger ones are being bumptious!

If I left my back door open at the moment 3foot of snow would come in!

I am curious as to where you live? Must admit on cold days the door is closed! Being in Sout of england it is not that often, usually winter evenings. I am just too lazy to keep opening and shutting the doors for them :D

Have you heard Terry Wogan going on about the A939 Cockbridge to Tomintoul road being closed with snow? Well. When you hear that think of me - I'm about 10 miles away and over 1000 feet above sea level. And, bizarrely I am Mrs Mackay and I do have a shovel.

Ok, time to defend myself once more, as my request for help seems to have led to all kinds of criticism of how I keep my dogs when people don't even know the real score!
My 2 boys are kept in a huge outbuilding, which has a big window that lets in the light, a side section where they sleep to keep out the draught, and it has lighting so they are never in the dark. I have a collie bitch aged 3 who stays in the house as she is very clean, however, all the dogs come in the house with me at night, I take it in turns to have them in the living room with me, where they munch happily on their bones.
I would never dream of walking my dogs seperatley, they love running about together, they are a pack, but I am pack leader and they all know it, they are all very obedient and good with me.
I feed them all a complete food with raw tripe for taste, they love it.
I appreciate any genuine advice and suggestions, but I resent criticism by people who do not know me, who think their ways are the only ways and assume any dog not kept how they would keep their dogs must be unhappy and stressed. My dogs are very healthy and loved, ok, I know they are probably a bit bored as they are still young, but they still get more excercise and attention than many many dogs out there, my surroundings where they run free are ideal for the breeds they are, and they are not fat, lazy, under stimulated dogs who do not know the meaning of a walk unless its on a lead with a halter around its head.
So think about that please before you criticise and insinuate that I am a bad owner.

I dont for one minute think you are a bad owner, but you admitted you had not kept dogs in a kennel situation before and asked for advice from those that do I did not mean to be unpleasant or over critical, but there is a skill to keeping kennelled dogs happy. No offence at all was meant. The advice to exersise your dogs separately occasionally is sound advice. Young dogs kept together will tend to bond with each other much more than they will with humans if they do not have individual attention/training/affection on a daily basis. Its not critism, just fact!!
:-)

hi bear ihavetwo ofmy staffs outside in kennels and my long coated shepherd thestaffs were always dragging there bedding out but 1 mth ago putshavingsin and paper on top in there boxes this there mix togeter when playing and now find as there dont want a moutfull of shavings there leave the paper in therebeds,both the paperandshavings brush easly out of the shepherds long coat no more probs.

Thanks to everyone for their advice, I am happy for my dogs to bond together as its only natural, and I know that they all love me as well, and as long as they all know who is the alpha female ( ! ) then I have no problems with them being more bonded to each other than me. I would rather have that than seeing them fighting and competing with each other for my attention, as I know some people have problems with.
Amazingly, the situation in the kennel sems to be getting better, the 2 boys have only been in there together ( before that they were kept seperate ) for a few months, so maybe they just needed a bit of time to calm down and accept being together, I don't know, but they seem to be getting a bit cleaner, if you understand me, and the blankets are not getting dragged all over the place anymore. I still have to put clean ones down every day as they get covered in mud and wet, but I would rather have that than having to bathe them every night!
By the way, does anyone with white or pale coloured dogs use dry shampoo? I was thinking of using that for my cream Shepherd, as he looks a real sight sometimes, and bathing him takes about 45 minutes as his coat is so long and thick. But does it work, and is it ok to use regularly?

It seems to me, Bear, that you didn't really require any ' advice ' in the first place....sounds like you already have your own ways and means of doing things, as we all do - so if it works for you and you are already set in your ways about it - no need to consider what anyone else says really. I have to say although, I sometimes come accross a bit abrupt ( apologies ) I thought westie lover had some very sensible and polite thoughts on the matter of kennelling dogs ( or not ).....it's each to his own in the end isn't it? But interesting nevertheless to learn about all the different ways people manage their dogs day to day -