Hi, i posted as guest and since have only just been able to sort out my p.c to allow me to log on properly!
Kassie, my GSD is still not appearing to make any headway in puppy classes- (considering now changing to a KC registered one- any advice?)
Tried the water spraying to combat the barking-i agree- what a fun game she thought it was!!! Was advised to use an empty container filled with dried beans - works a treat when we've got it near by!!
As with grumpy other half- he still remains a pain in the backside-not helping very much and contradicting everything i do with her!

A few questions,
At puppy classes we are learning using treats - how do i wean her off this? we are reasonable on "sit" but to get her to "down" is impossible without them!!
When teaching her to stay in a position, when do we treat? straight away or when we release her or both?

We have also got into a bad habit- when she jumps on the settee or bed we tell her down and she (eventually) gets down, could this be causing the trouble with the "down" command? I suspect it does, and if so, how are we going to combat the problem?

Has anyone got any ideas on how to stop her jumping up at us when we get home? Tried ignoring her completely until she stops, tried turning our backs on her ( she jumps up our backs!!). I know that this is soon going to become a problem!! as although she's a cute almost 5 month old puppy- she's soon going to have enough weight behind her to floor us!!!!

I know we are supposed to ignore her when she barks, but what do we do when she starts barking at the neighbours? Fortunately they don't mind but it makes me feel uncomfortable with going to be such a big dog ( and the dangerous dogs act)

Also under this act- is it acceptable for her to bark when the front door goes?

If not- how do we stop her? although it would be nice if she didn't lose it everytime it happens- it takes forever to drag her into another room to keep her away from the pizza delivery guy!!!!
Sorry for such a long post, it's just I want tomake sureshe grows into a wonderful companion (she fantastic company already!!) with no problems that will stay with us forever!!! (and annoy the neighbours!!)

I would like to mention that she was bred for temperament (we were told) - is she likely to grow out of it - or is it purely down to how we train her?

You need to have different commands for "lay down" and "get off the furniture". Using 'down' for both will confuse your pup. Use "drop" to get her to lay, and "off" to get off the bed.

She is still young so it is reasonable to continue to use treats to get her to drop.
Give her a treat as soon as she goes down. Initially take just one step away from her and if she remains down go back and treat her again. Build up your distance very gradually. You can treat again when you release her from the drop - but she might be just as happy with lots of praise and a chest rub!

Continue with the back turning when she jumps. She will redouble her efforts for a while to attempt to gain your attention (this is the 'extinction burst'). Eventually she will learn that the behaviour is getting no attention and it will then start to disappear.

If your husband will not co-operate in the training it is going to make life very difficult. Can you not persuade him that, if he helps, or at least does not hinder, he will have a dog to be very proud of. Get him to an obedience trial to see the top dogs performing (many will be Shepherds) and show him what is possible.

Shadowboxer has already given some good tips to counter most of your problems so I'll just add a little.

Barking is one behaviour that does not respond to ignoring because it is self rewarding to the dog. You would be better training an 'enough' or 'cease' command. When your dog is barking get hold of the collar and with your dog at your side, give a gentle tug/release at the collar, saying 'enough' or similar as you do so. Praise your dog as soon as he stops barking. I would allow one or two barks before you give your command as there will be times when you want your dog to bark. You may have to repeat this a few times before your dog understands what is expected and then you should be able to stop the barking on command alone.

I do no think your dog barking when someone comes to the door is enough to be considered a nuicance to others unless you have an exceptionally busy social life! There's not much point having a dog and having to bark yourself!

"Has anyone got any ideas on how to stop her jumping up at us when we get home? Tried ignoring her completely until she stops, tried turning our backs on her ( she jumps up our backs!!). I know that this is soon going to become a problem!! as although she's a cute almost 5 month old puppy- she's soon going to have enough weight behind her to floor us!!!!"

I had a friend who bred and trained GSDs for 30 years. When she got a real stubborn jumper who would not respond she would use her knees. As the dog was in mid-jump she would bring her knee up so that the dog would end up smacking right into it. That usually cured it. Sort of like running into a brick wall.

Stacey

thanks for all your advice, i was worried that the problem weve caused using down twice would be irreversible - but i am going to start using off when she's on the furniture.
The jumping up at us is going to have to be dealt with by turning our back still, however it seems like she will never learn - we've been doing this since July!!! unfortunatly we can't be consistent with using knees- my partner is usually laden down with tools when he gets home from work- and he's got a bad back.
Fortunately on the subject of him, his new job is taking him away for twelve days out of fourteen for the forseeable future, So she will hopefully just see him as a guest until he stops- (by then i'll hopefully have her trained lol)

Any more tips on GSD's would be more than appreciated, DOes any one know any clubs in the warrington area?

Try Mrs F Williams 0151-645-6602 Wirral ATC if they are too far away they might known someone nearer

Are you using clicker training to teach down? I had a problem getting my dog to go down and remain down without treats recently too. As i use clicker training my trainer advised me to:
1. Start by luring the dog down using treats, once in a down try moving your hand slightly away so that the dog isn't mouthing the food and click and treat. Do this many times.
2. After a while pretend that you have the food in your hand and lure again, if the dog goes down click and treat. If not you may have to lure a few more times.
3. Once the dog is going down without the treats in your hand just hold the food in front and see what happens. After a short while the dog is likely to lie down in an attempt to find out what gets the treat. If so the dog is starting to really think for itself and so you can then start putting the word to the action. As the dog goes down say 'down' and then click and treat.
4. Now that the dog is going down reasonably well you can start with holding the click for a few seconds. The click signals the release (you can also add a release word - i use 'ok'.) and so the dog should learn that they stay in that position in order to get the treat (don't treat until the dog is release other wise they will think they are finished and get up). You can then just keep extending the time and eventually this will develop into a stay, as the longer you withold the click the longer the stay.
This method of teaching can be applied to lots of things. Incidentally my dog was struggling with down up until 5 months of age, at which time my trainer went through these exercises with me. Two weeks later she will go down on command (more or less - i still need to use the hand signal) and stay for more than 30 seconds in both sit and down so it works!
Another way is to use a target stick. I use a small piece of wooden dowling. With clicker training i have trained her to 'touch' the end with her nose (Every time she touches the end click and treat - they love this game and catch on really quickly). They will then follow the end of the stick where ever you place it. In this way you can position a down by placing the end of the stick on the floor, and as the dog goes down to touch it you can say down and click and treat. The dog has gone into a down without food.
I also use 'off' to ask the dog to stop jumping up or to get off the sofa.
Afraid i can't help with the barking and jumping up as i am still struggling with these problems! But i have hoped i have been of some help. Good luck!

i've been mulling the idea of clicker training over- from reading other posts as well it seems a good way of training,
The only thing is i don't really know how to go about it!
Where will i get a clicker from, and can any one recommend a good guide to clicker training?
She's not a bad lass, and i know that the problems that we are having are going to be my fault- but if i don't know what i'm doing wrong- i don't know how to start fixing it!lol

thanks for the info on wirral atc - unfortunately it's a little bit too far away to travel every wek, but i've found the GSD helpline- i've emailed them locally so they should (hopefully) be able to help!
As i said before- all advice will be gratefully accepted, i really want to help her become a truly magnificent dog!!

Pets at Home sell clickers, as do most pet shops - it would be a case of phoning round the smaller local ones I expect. A good book is Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor published by Ringpress.

Good luck - clicker is a great way of training the most amazing 'tricks' as well as obedience to whatever level you like :)

Clicker training is superb, but you do need to get either a good book (pets at home sell a clicker with a small booklet which is excellent on the basics) and yes the Karen Pryor one is v. good as Digger has said.

(With Clicker training, there are 2 rules - always treat if you have clicked, and also remember the click ends the behaviour, so for instance, if the dog is in a Down and you click, she may get up for her treat but that is OK!)

Re the jumping up - i be careful if you go down the kneeing route. Yes it does work - or can work - but it also risks internal damage to the dog :( if she is particulalry excited and meets your knee hard at the wrong place on her stomach.

YOu can teach a dog not to jump up with a clicker if you do go that route.

As for barking, at neighbours etc, you do need to control it - so yes get her used to a command such as "Quiet" and then click and treat or reward with food or praise.....you may need to add a sharp "ah ah " type once she understands but decides to bark anyway. Do reward her once she listens to you which she will with consistency :)

That's so important - consistency, all familiy members should really be doing the same thing :)

Re the treats, you can put them in a bum bag, different pots, different hands, and start putting them for example on the side so she knows they are there but she doens't get them straight from your hand. My dog took a while but i would put a treat on the side, then say for example Sit, and often if you just wait them out they will offer the behaviour, if not, walk away (no treat) calmly, and try again. I have never known this not to work but it hleps if someone can show you ;)

Your trainer should be able to show you, and eventually how to stop using them as lures and rewards so that youdont need them to get the dog to obey, but can use them as a "thanks" for excellent behaviour :)

Lindsay

If you cannot get to a clicker trainer an excellent investment would be the Motivation Movie made by one of the leading clicker trainers in this country Joanna Hill; this is better than a book because you can see the method in action and addressing the most common problems like biting, barking, jumping up etc. It is available via Alpha Dog Training on the net. It is highly recommended and when you have finished with it you can sell it on!

Id disagree with this bit slightly "(With Clicker training, there are 2 rules - always treat if you have clicked, and also remember the click ends the behaviour, so for instance, if the dog is in a Down and you click, she may get up for her treat but that is OK!)"

The way I use clicker training, is that the 'click' signifies the correct response, adn teh 'treat' signifies the end of the behaviour.......only a very slight departure from your way Lindsay (and i know many who do it that way, not getting at you, just saying how i do it)..........this way, IF it works for you, you avoid the dog getting up the minute you click.......the dog getting up when you click if you are training a sit, or down in a small puppy isnt a problem....but i found with the first dog i used clicker training, when i got to distance sits, downs etc, i would click and he would come back to me, NOT what i was after.............

This method also works, but you have to make the connection between the click marking the correct behaviour, and the treat coming a little later (at first ALWAYS, until the dog is 100% on teh command in all places and with and without distractions, then variable treats).

There are loads of variations on clicker use, some people have the patience to shape behaviours by waiting for the dog to offer them, and clicking when it does.....without any commands, luring anything (me, nope! id be waiting a long time, mine rarely offer much beyond SLEEEEP).....other people prefer to encourage the dog to perform a behaviour and then click .......either way is good, whats great about it is , done correctly, the dog will learn to offer more and more behaviours as it learns to think.

Anyway, i have lost my train of thought, and its gone 2 am!

Em

Allyson, i have the Motivation Movie by Jo Hill - i think it 's very good :)

Hi Em,

I agree :) there are different ways to use a clicker and in fact have been wondering if i should change what i do. i was originally taught that as long as the dog understands the click ends the behaviour - AND there is no great distraction in between - it works well and the dogs certainly always seem to understand it. My dog would get up and come tome, and also choose to go off and drink and l loved all this and it worked very well. It was a refreshing change, for me, to have the dog thinking and learning without having to keep the dog in the same position for the reward like i used to do before i used the clicker. I had a few debates about this with people i was learning from, and these were trainers like Elizabeth K. and others who were in at the beginnign, so to speak :) and i did agree with them i have to say.

I now wonder in fact whether, as you say with distance sits and downs etc, too much happens between the click and the reward and the dog doesn't learn so well - or maybe does learn, but not so quickly. Is this why you use "treat" as signifying the end of the behaviour, Em? Did you find this was in fact happening? I would't be concerned about the dog getting up/coming in for a treat unless it was upsetting the actual learning process. Maybe there is some underlying classical conditioning going on too - association with rewward/return as well as the operant!! LOL!

I tend to mention the "do'nt worry if the dog gets up" a lot, because IME the dogs often do unless trained/guided otherwise, and i wouldnt' want for example, newbies to clicker to get concerned they were training their dog wrong ;) In fact i sometimes explain things in a different way to the way i would dothings myself at home, because i am always aware of people reading - who knows how many will read these posts before the day or week is out LOL.

Gone 2 am - how do you manage it.... i need my 8 hours!!!

Lindsay