My Lab has just had a litter of 9 puppies. One black bitch pup has a small white spot on its chest. What does this indicate? Will this prevent her going to her new owners? Is it considered good, bad or indifferent?

Do you mean she has a patch of white fur???

Yes sorry, a white spot sounds like she is going through her teenage years! It is a small patch of white fur. Any clues?

Don't know much about Labs, but can't see it would be a problem unless going in the show ring. Forgive me for saying so, but I would have thought you would have known about this sort of thing before undertaking breeding?
Anyway, a Lab person will probably be along later who will be able to shed more light.

A small white spot is allowed.
Dawn.

We had a line of labs going from late 40s to mid 80s - although pure bred not registered in those days - and every so often, a white "button" or locket would appear!

John will tell you whether it is acceptable in the ring or not - I know that in the field it would make no difference.

Forgive me for saying so, but I have reviewed all your responses on other subjects and I wondered why you are so condesending to questions we raise about breeding and if we knew everything we wouldn't be on this forum, I thought this site was about gaining expertise from other experienced breeders and above all doing whats best for our cherished Labs and their breed.

If this is directed at me, I was trying to help. I merely pointed out that as a breeder I would have thought you would have at least read the breed standard before having a litter and spoken to lab people who would have given some idea of what to expect your puppies to look like! The tone of your reply is uncalled for as your original question indicated that you seemed to think you had an actual health problem with the puppy. I was surprised to say the least at your worry that a white spot on a black dog should prevent it from being homed.

I agree with you Fillis. Is someone breeds a litter I would expect them to know the relevant breed standard inside out. It rather implies they haven't done all the necessary homework.

CAMBIO a white spot on a black lab is not allowed,But thats only for showing purposes,saying that a black should be that only, Yellow come in all shades frm nearly white too a deep sandy colour with different shades on its coat this is allowed, then you have the chocolate or liver which come in light and dark shades. Ihope that this has answered your question.

Sorry to contradict, Jua, but the breed standard specifically states that a white spot on the chest is permissible.

Just checked the latest Standard to make sure we are right and yes! There is no change and it is still permissible!

Incidentally, in America, Black with brindle markings or black with tan markings is a disqualification! Where on earth did they come from?

Regards, John

Ok, im not saying that either of us are rite or wrong ok,but ive been breeding labs for 10yrs now and even if you mate a black lab with a yellow they should one or the other no other colour on the coats

Jua, read the standard! You are wrong!

John

Hi Jua, you are wrong & we are right, nothing to argue about at all. A small white patch on the chest is allowed on a black dog, doesn`t matter if you`ve been breeding Labs for donkeys yrs :)

Christine, Spain.

The breed standard allows for a small white patch on the chest.

It is in the standard, which is why someone commented that the poster did not know this before breeding a litter, which I hope they did to produce pups to the standard, may be they forgot, the comment may not be a criticism but a comment of surprise.

As people have said, a white spot is permissable. My own Lucy had one! It never bothered me but I do believe that in the ring the dog would have to be outstanding in other aspects to win.

Regards, John

Not sure about that John, seen a lot of Blacks with a few white hairs on the chest, seem to do as they should in the ring. Guess that Yellows and Chocs. have the white too but it is not so noticeable to a ringsider. Happens in my breed where it is considered undesirable but seems to go unpunished in the ring. Think judges give it very low consideration when there is so much left of the dog for the judge to think about.

that small white patch is on the chest only on the yellow

Not according to the official Breed Standard, Jua. It makes no mention of the white being permissible on the yellow only. And that is what judges must adhere to, not base their placings on personal opinion. Sorry.

Here is the exact line on the standard for colour:
Colour: Wholly black, yellow or liver/chocolate. Yellows range from light cream to red fox. Small white spot on chest permissible.

Where does it say that the white spot is only permissible on yellows??

Wendy

This is not aimed at anyone in paticular but i have noticed in several of the threads in this forum that if anyone asks a question about breeding or there intension to breed then they are shot to pieces..Maybe some people who ask these questions already know the answer but want' reassurence from a breeder..It is far better them asking on here and getting a pleasent answer and knowing what they are doing than asking getting abuse and never asking any more questions and there dogs suffering in the long run..I breed and exhibit cats and there is the same hostilities towards newcomers to breeding and showing as what i see here and i think it is very unfair..Some people have the attitude of "it is my game and you are not playing"You all have to remember you were new to it once and you all would have asked silly questions,so please be nice to people and help them out,it is far easier and you will feel better in yourselves and if you cant manage that then please dont reply to the questions..Thanks..

cambio, as others have said a white spot on the chest is permissable but not desirable as far as the breed standard is concerned. It is a slight fault and as such it should be pointed put to the prospective owner as being allowed but not desired and drop the price by a small amount, say £50 or £100 assuming you are selling the other pups for one price. This is to cover you so they cant come back to you later and say that you didn't point it out and they dont want the puppy after all. People could use this excuse for you to take it back because of some other real problem like behaviour or "granny doesn't like it". Its handy for them to have a valid reason - which a white spot not pointed out - could be.

Hi Marky,
I can absolutely see your point, but one could also liken breeding animals (dogs, cats, hamsters, goldfish - whatever) to building a kit-car. You wouldn't just stick bits together and see if it works - you'd carefully study the plans first so that you knew what you were doing. At least you would if you wanted a good result when you'd finished!
:)

is this the 1st time that you have ever breed ? And you didnt say wot colour the father was im actually a reg breeder of yellow and black labs, you also never said anything about them being pure bred

The original poster said they were Labs. so guess they are. Think people are just a bit surprised that someone got interested enough in the breed to have a litter did not to know that small white spot on chest is permissible. And that the fact is stated in the standard, it does not say undesirable it says permissible, which probable means it occurs quite often.

Don’t think breeders mind others breeding at all, but they do care passionately about their breed, that in most cases they have spent years studying and trying to breed each litter that little bit better than the last and then when they read some of the posts (NOT THIS ONE) it upsets them and to be fair are you that surprised.

Oooh poor Cambio - she only asked a question and will never learn all there is to know about breeding unless others help. How are inexperienced breeders to know everything straight off when all of you with experience can't quite agree straight off? Permissable/undersirable/acceptable - they are all just words with your own interpretation. The forum bible 'The Book of the Bitch' can't help with this one.

Using forums like these isn't quite the same as having a conversation, we don't have the benefit of facial expression/body language or other interpretation as we would in a face-to-face situation. Nobody wants their post to be misinterpreted and although we know what we mean when we post, others often read things differently. Lets all make an effort to be kind to one another, helpful, supportive and offer information rather than take a condescending approach.

These boards are invaluable, lets keep them that way.

Hi J/Cat, Jua`s reply to Cambio`s question is wrong. Jua only joined recently so we don`t know about the experience h/she has. Do know that the others who have replied correcting Jua`s post are experienced & are correct in what they say. No we don`t all know the answers to everything but between us we know a hell of lot & if someones wrong the someone else will speak up, sometimes there is no right or wrong but this is one of the times that answer is right or wrong & Jua is wrong no doubt about it. :)

Christine, Spain.

Jackie - I just meant that to most breeders it is undesirable - I certainly wouldn't keep one in a breeding programme.

Hi Jackyjat,
If a breed standard says something is permissible it means that it "can or ought to be permitted; allowable". That is the dictionary definition of the word - no other interpretation is possible. In this case a white spot on the chest is permissible - no mention of on certain colours only - so there is no possible dispute. A white spot is okay on all accepted colours.

I think people were surprised that somebody would breed a litter without knowing what they were aiming to achieve. If you love a breed enough to want to reproduce them, surely to goodness you will learn all you can about them before you start? And that means reading the standard, over and over again, until it's thoroughly learned. And have a copy to hand to check up on when in doubt. That's what it's for, after all!
:)

If people do not know what they are breeding then I'm sad but I see no hope for the future of the breed! Please all breeders, Read the standard of the breed BEFORE you start to breed and refresh your memory from time to time afterwards.

John

some breeders are not interested in the breed standard, they dont concern themselves with whether the dog will look good they are only concerned with the dogs temperament and working ability. most of the lab breeders i know work there dogs and dont relly care about white patches as long as the dog has the basic working skills inherited from its parents. this may annoy some of the show people on the site but i guess thats the difference between show and working folk.

can i just add that as a spectator at crufts last year i saw a well known kennel touching up their black lab with a marker pen to hide a few white hairs on the chest.yes the white is permissable but breeders obviously dont like it!!!!

I find it very interesting that the original poster is criticised for not having appraised his/herself with the Breed Standard but then two breeders disagree on whether the white spot is permissible in the show ring...What does this say about the possible application of the Breed Standard???

Just a thought!

I think it says rather more about the knowledge (or lack of it) of the breeders.  The breed standard is readily available and in the UK a small white spot on the chest is permissable.  In the US a small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable.  This may account for the difference of opinion depending on where the breeder is from.  The fact is that whether a breeder of a first litter or an established breeder of many years, one should, at least, know the breed standard.