Why does the KC like to cause confusion with its explanations?:
Take for instance, Grad - "not won - four or more first prizes...". I always took this to be win 3, move up, but talking to someone (who has been showing a lot longer than me) last night, was told I can win 4 in Grad. There followed a "group" discussion which resulted in a 50/50 split. Anyone out there with a certain, sure, 100% answer? And wouldn't it be nice if the KC could just say what they mean?

It seems clear to me - not won 4 or more first prizes at Ch shows etc, means you can only have won less than 4 of the relevant classes - so 3 would be the maximum.

Thats what I thought, but when people are so insistent, it puts doubts in your mind, and you tend to think they are more experienced and therefore must know. Thanks.

No because you move up if you win your 4th so you can win 4 in grad or less and until you win 4 youve only won 3

Edited to say that sounds really silly doesnt it :D GIllian

I'm with Satincollie on this one. Picture the scene, you walk into the ring with your dog that has won 3 Graduate classes, he's elligible to be there because he hasn't won 4 or more. He wins the class, so now he's out of Graduate. (4 wins).
Dawn R.
Edited... Reading Jeangenie again, she's right too, if he's only won 3 he can go in today because he hasn't won 4!!!

You see? They both sound right! This is how it was last night. If only the KC could define it as "after 4(or whatever) wins" life would be much easier, but then when did they want to make it easy for us poor deluded folk? :(

As long as your dog hasn't won 4 or more of the relevant classes by the closing date of entry for that particular show, you can enter him. If he wins that Graduate class, he has then won 4, so cannot be entered in any more. But because of the long gap between close of entries and the actual show he may have been entered in a Graduate class at another show a little earlier and won that too. But that doesn't alter the fact that he was eligible for entry in to the class at the 2nd show (I'll be doing diagrams later!) when those entries closed.
Take it slowly and it makes sense!

Actually it is 7 days before the entry closing date that is the qualifying time, I suppose for those people who post enties off in plenty of time. I never do them before time :D

These two are correct - if you overthink it then it gets complicated. If you have three you can still enter - once you get your fourth you can no longer enter because then you have 'four or more'. And the reason it states four or more is that you might win 2 more graduate classes after you've already entered another show. You are still able be be in the class you entered (as when you entered you were within the limit), but you may have 5 1st's by that time. But you are no longer eligible to enter any more. Have I really confused you??

For example I have 4 1st's in Novice Classes. To enter Novice I can't have 3 or more, but when I entered the 2 other classes I only had 2. So, I can legally 'own' 4 1st's in a Novice class, I just can't enter any more after I've got the 3rd one.

Wendy

Thank you everyone - I've got it now :D Roll on open much easier ;)