Hello,
I'm in the process of rehabilitating a fear aggressive dog, and have experienced first hand the looks from other dog walkers, the rudeness of other people who allow their dogs to come up to yours ruining months of hard work, and the immense social pressure to punish your dog when you know it will make things worse, and then to be subject to muttering and stares because you 'let him get away with it'. I also know what it's like to look at your dog lying in front of the fire all sweet and relaxed and feeling torn up inside because he can't be like that all the time.

I'm quite lucky in my case, I know my dog, I know exactly how I plan to sort the problem and I know that perseverence is working, but I do wonder that if I hadn't had enough knowledge to cope with him would things have been terrible?

Jo

whilst i sympathise with your situation i think that until you have rehabilitated your dog sufficiently maybe you should take him to places that are relatively dog free. When walking my dog across the fields i let him free from his leash. i have control over him and i know from experience that he is not a visious dog. whilst i understand how frustrating it must be for an owner with a dog on a leash to have dogs running freely a responsible owner will not let there dog to far in front and will retrieve him with a call before he approaches a dog on a leash. if the freely running dog is of good temperament with both children and animals and is under control by his owner i see no harm in a free running dog. As for being under social obligation to punish your dog i'd say that you know what is better for your dogs recovery and ignore these people let them look after their pet, its up to you how you look after yours!!

Unfortunately, (and i have been in this situation) it is nigh on impossible to either rehabilitate a dog with nervous aggression problems by avoiding other dogs, or by keeping it on a leash. These two actions are just avoiding the problem, not solving it.

With the best will in the world, it is also impossible to tell at a distance exactly which loose dogs are friendly and under control, and which are going to undo months worth of work.

I have 3 dogs, one is good tempered, and very good at reading other dogs body language, one is a complete bully and wishes to intimidate other dogs who he percieves as being 'lesser status' than himself, and reacts aggressively when on lead. The third has problems reading body language, but isnt really bothered by other dogs.

When walking my dogs, taking all these factors into consideration, the LAST thing i need to have to do, is to work out wether the dog hurtling towards me is friendly or not!!!!

Certainly, any dog approaching Rocky when he is on lead, irrespective of wether it is vicious or not, is percieved by him as a threat, and he reacts by barking, snarling and lunging. This is the very behaviour i am trying to avoid, but with his tendancies to bully other dogs when off lead, i cannot risk it often. Its a catch 22 situation, i hate to see dogs on lead permanently, and dogs who are not permitted to play with other dogs...... but so few of the dog owners i meet on walks seem to have an inkling of what their dogs are trying to communicate, its a situation that i fear will continue.

Em

That's exactly why I want a seperate forum for people with similar problems!
In no way was I attacking people who let their dogs off the leads. I have two dogs, one is very friendly and confident, but if I couldn't control him enough to call him back from other dogs that may not appreciate his attention, he would stay on the lead. Being a rescue, he was not trained when we got him, so until he learnt a good recall he was always on the lead around dogs. It's just manners.
When you use words like 'vicious' it makes people feel very inadequate and ashamed, it's a horrible emotive word to use, and implies the dog has an intention to be cruel. The vast majority of aggressive dogs are actually trying to avoid conflict by putting on an impressive display to keep other dogs away.
You seem to have made a lot of assumptions from my post, my dog CAN walk around dogs without behaving aggressively, but if a loose dog invades his space he will bark. How are we supposed to teach our dogs that other dogs are not a threat when they are constantly hounded by them, always accompanied with 'it's ok, he's friendly!'? Well that's great, but my dog barks, the other dog walks off to find someone else to play with, and the barking has been rewarded.
You cannot get a dog used to other dogs without exposing it to them. Not overwhelming them, but controlled exposure at the dogs own pace, gradually building up without making them uncomfortable and afraid. Even if I wanted to keep him away from all other dogs, it's just impossible, he will always have to encounter dogs at some point in his life.
I'm very happy with the methods I use to improve his problem, I've had very significant results, from a dog that would bark and lunge at anything near him to one that could happily walk alongside another dog, but is not yet comfortable with social interaction. That will come, providing his social experiences are not dominated by bouncy, sometimes friendly (and often ill mannered) dogs jumping around him when he is on the lead.
Unless you've had a nervous dog on the end of the lead, you probably wont appreciate how many people there are who think it is their right to let their dogs go wherever they want without control.
You clearly have a high level of control over your dog, so I'm not talking about you. I daresay everyone who uses this forum is the sort of person that takes steps to avoid their dogs becoming a nuisance to others, so it's not directed at anyone.
The idea behind the doggy rehab forum is for people to get together, share experiences, realise that they are not alone, and, yes, to let off steam about the irresponsible owners who do make the job of rehabilitating their dog so very much harder.

Jo

Hi

I know what you mean :)

I have an 8 month old staff bitch who is just the same, she is very nervous around other dogs. I have posted on here for advice before and both times my posts ends up being removed beacuse it causes such a debate and one person in particular usually ends up being very rude and thus the post gets removed :(

I have to keep Ruby on the lead if there are other dogs near to us as she is so unpredictable. As a rule she is ok if the other dogs keep out the way and ignore her, but if they come running up to her it always panics her and she lunges and snarls at them. She is easier to manage off the lead as she feels less threatened, so it is a catch 22 situation, in one way you feel she is calmer off the lead and less easily provoked and on the other hand you dare not risk it! Especially when other owners will allow their dogs to run up, on some occassions even when I have asked them not to.

The other day a GSD came running up to Ruby, she reacted in her usual way which meant I had to hold her back, whilest the owner was so far in the distance, and daydreaming to herself, thus completely unaware of what was happening! This seemed to go on for an eternity, with me trying to lead Ruby away, but the other dog kept on following us, poor Ruby was eventually sick with the stress before the owner eventually called her dog away!

I dont have a problem with dogs off the lead at all, I wish that I could trust Ruby enough to allow her to more often, but I like you do wish that owners would at least keep an eye on what their dog is doing!

There is a little Yorkshire Terrier in a home near us that is just allowed to roam the steets with no supervision at all, it has suprised Ruby on more than one occassion as we are walking, and its owners no where to be seen! God forbid if Ruby ever got hold of the little thing it could be terrible.

I am going to see a trainer in September to try to assist me in training her. We have made a little progress in that Ruby is ok if other dogs ignore her, at one time she would bark and panic at the mere sight of another dog! This is as a result of another dog upsetting her at a puppy class whan she was small.

Good luck with your dog, its a struggle, and can be worrying, but when you have such a loving and adorable dog at home, it is all worth the effort :)

HI Jo and all :)

Just a very quick reply as i hope to get back to this later (have to do lots of stuff today!) but I wondered if you are setting up a forum re. dog aggression, Jo? That would be interesting.

My Terv had a spate of defensive aggression - i know exactly why it happened, when, and thank goodness had enough knowledge at that time to help her through her fears, despite meeting dogs of all sorts of dispositions and her being attacked by a bitch defending her grown up daughter. MInd you, a lot of what i did was pure instinct too :) :)

I'll get back on here when i can and chat more.

Lindsay
X

Hello everyone, thanks for posting this as it helps me appreciate the problems - I have a friendly young dog who is learning to meet other dogs under supervision, and have been guilty of this very offence through both of us being inexperienced and making mistakes. I have always apologised profusely for being a nuisance but I realise this is insufficient compensation for your hearts blood going into rehabilitating your dogs. People should learn to be more forgiving of each other and realise it could be them in the hot seat another time... I certainly do and admire those with enough skill and commitment to give rescue dogs a better life.

No, apologising is not insufficient! Most people don't think they have to.
If it happens to me and someone understands why it upsets me, I don't have a problem at all. It's the abuse that I get which annoys me!

Lindsay, my original post has been edited so I don't think I'm allowed to say! There is a link in my profile which explains it, I don't want to break terms and conditions by discussing on here, I hadn't realised that I did to begin with otherwise I wouldn't have posted it at all!!

Jo

<<<God forbid if Ruby ever got hold of the little thing it could be terrible.>>
And we all know which dog would be in the wrong even with Ruby on the lead - the terrible Staffy !!! :(

Hi Jo

I'm sure you'll get a big response to your post as there are an equal number of people who allow their 'friendly' dog to go say 'hello' to others on leads as there are owners of dogs on leads who are nervous about 'friendly' dogs coming to say 'hi'!!

In my lifetime I've had 2 dogs spoiled by other people allowing their dogs to run free.

One was a neighbour who allowed his adopted 'stray' to wander on and off his land at will. We had to pass this man's land - it was our only way off our property and, for 18 months, were charged at by this dog and pinned against our own garden gates. Sometimes, if our gates were open we couldn't even get off our own front drive!! We approached him, the local dog warden, the police and finally took legal action against him which cost us a fortune, and ruined our dogs nature for about a year after. Our neighbours response ' I don't think she'll bite you'! Small comfort when you've been faced with a barking, snarling ankle nipping GSD/collie x until he came from wherever he was to haul his dog off.

The other was a couple with a pair of Rotties who were allowed to run free in the local park. The dogs left their owners and ran after me and my dog (a nervous rescued youngster)for 200 yards with their owners shouting in vain behind them. When the dogs caught up with us they rolled my young dog in a hedge of brambles and jumped all over him while I tried to hang onto his lead and put myself between the dogs and him. God knows what might have happened if children had been involved. When the owners finally arrived all they could say when I said they ought to keep their dog under control was ' we're here aren't we?' and 'they only wanted to play' What escaped their notice was that they were over 100 yards away when their dogs decided to come and have a little fun with mine and took not a scap of notice of their 'stop' and 'come here' commands. Once the damage is done it takes an awful lot of undoing - all of which can be undone again in a few thoughtless moments.

A support group is an excellent idea - wish there'd been one when I needed it!!

Good luck

No, I do not allow my friendly dog to approach dogs on leads - he gets recalled and put on lead & I take advice from the other owner where I can, but I am honest enough to admit our shortcomings and work to correct it. We had to learn with Morse and by experience and we got caught out at the beginning. CD has helped me to learn to be a better owner through everyone sharing their experience and this thread is adding to my understanding. The dogs you describe werent friendly they were rioting and I dont see why anyone should have to put up with that.

Hi Lorelei

Sorry if my post came on just as you'd added yours. My comments weren't aimed at you but in response to Jo to relate my experience. I don't for one moment think any of the people i described had intentionally meant harm either - just hadn't realised the damage their friendly dogs could cause. Please don't feel I was having a dig - there was none intended!!

Hi dogbehaviour, thanks for explaining. I have a horror of coming across as making excuses for Morse (e.g. hes only playing) and that made me somewhat terse, and I feel guilty (see new friend post) so Im thin skinned. I like this site compared to someothers I visited because its understandable and positive. So Im sorry I fired off at you.

Hi Jo

Another tool which may be useful if obtainable is a doggy waistcoat, similar to those worn by rescue dogs etc. I'd love to find one which says something like 'Dog in training - please ignore'. Like you, I get involved with rehabilitating dogs and quite often the only way to get them used to the thing they fear is to do it gradually. BUT, whenever you have a cute looking, cuddly dog, people want to approach and fuss. If anyone knows a source of waistcoats which could be printed up with a suitable slogan, I for one would much appreciate it!

I want one which says Owner in Training with a notepad for writing down suggestions.:)

Just swing a muzzle round in your spare hand and they will think 'oh no, evil dog not wearing muzzle! Stay away!'
Anyway, luckily my dog is very ugly, so people tend to just hurry away as though their eyes might have been damaged by looking at him!

Also, Lorelei, have to add my post looked like I was being rude to you, I was actually trying to say that I wouldn't include you in with those people! I'm talking about people who really dont see the problem with their dog frightening and winding up mine, and then throwing me dirty looks if he reacts!

Jo

JO!!!!

Im gonna tell Charlie you said that, he is gorgeous, not at all ugly.....he is the smoothestest dog in the universe.. i swap you for Saffi, you can have her, she just farted n it smells!

Em (who loves charlie lots, errr and Len, dont wanna leave lenny out)

Lorelei

Love your sense of humour - don't ever loose it!