Not logged inChampdogs Information Exchange
By westielover2003
![[gb]](/images/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Date 10.08.03 18:06 UTC
What age can i put my puppy up for stud?any information about putting dogs up for stud would be appreciated!
Admin edit: terms of service
Hi,
Put him up for stud when he's done some winning in the showring, passed all his breed-relevant health tests and people start to ask you if they can use him on their bitches.
:)
By Carla
Date 10.08.03 18:10 UTC
;) :D
By westielover2003
Date 10.08.03 18:11 UTC
thanx for the help much appreciated!
By westie lover
Date 11.08.03 07:42 UTC
The only health test for Westies as far as I know is to have them eye tetsted ( by a specialist - not usually your normal vet-he will refer you) as junior cataracts are worth checking for.
By Irene
Date 11.08.03 21:10 UTC
I would definately get him eye tested, ive had mine done and they are clear. Also try and find out where your nearest shows are and go to ringcraft training, its not a case of putting two dogs in a room and letting them get on with it, if you try that you will be in trouble as it could hurt the dog and bitch, especially if both of them are maiden(not been mated before). I had problems with my boy first time I used him as my bitch wasnt in the least bit interested and I knew she was ready, but I perservered and had a lovely healthy litter. You will also need to learn how to work with a stud dog, I still find it difficult to work with him, but , so far he has produced lovely healthy puppies. Irene-Westyholm Westies
By Sal_Cosmo
![[us]](/images/flags/us.png "United States")
Date 11.08.03 22:05 UTC
Hi, I have a 6 month old Cocker spaniel and the lady that does his grooming, wanted to know if she could use him as a stud....i told her sure. What is the normal stud fee for a cocker? He is about 14 inches at the sholder....I have pictures of him if you give me your e-mail. Or i can tell you. He is mostly Black and has white legs and small white markings around the face. I also wondered what would happen if I did use him as a stud and asked for a puppy back is that common. The bitch is Red and White. One more thing....Luckily there is no history of Eye/Ear problem in the last 4 litters his parents had and niether of them have problems
By westie lover
Date 11.08.03 22:47 UTC
He cant be used at stud until he is a year old. Its not unusual to have a puppy back but a stud fee can be paid instead. A stud dog ( for thats what he will be if he's used at stud) owners responsibilities are just as great as the mothers owners. Would you be able to take a puppy/puppies back if their new owners had problems? What if he does pass on an hereditary disease - would you be prepared to help with vets costs for the puppies.
Be aware that using him at stud just once could change his temperament so that he is always "on the make" which can be very tiresome in a companion dog. He may start to try to "go look for it" wheras before he was content to stay home with you. Its a big step -and we haven't even got on to whether he is actually suitable to use at stud. Has someone who shows or works them told you he is an outstanding specimen of his breed? He should be to be used at stud. Its fun showing, why not take him to ringcraft classes and start showing him, if he does some winning in well filled classes of cockers then he may have the attributes for a stud dog of the future. Dont let him be bred before he's 12 months or you wont be able to register the puppies with the Kennel Club. They are the only recognised UK body for dog registration. Puppies registered with any other registration club are not desirable and not neccesarily pure bred.
By Sal_Cosmo
Date 12.08.03 01:41 UTC
I have been told he was the ideal dog for breeding that has been seen around where I live, and I don't know where you got it but there hasn't been any Eye/Ear problems or diseases in his family history. His markings are good and would make a good show dog and i would give up the time and effort of making him good at it, but there aren't any places that show within a 2 hour drive. So when his is old enough if I want to use him as a stud and the mother's owner wants to deal with money what is the normal amount asked for a stud fee? How rare is a red and white marked cocker?
By Jackie H
Date 12.08.03 05:51 UTC
Hi the fact that there has been no ear/eye problem reported in the dogs lines does not mean a thing. There are at least 20+ recognised congenital and/or heritable conditions that are know to affect the Cocker and depending what country you are in,need to be consisdered before you decide if your dog is suitable for a particular bitch. He will need to be hip scored and eye tested for GPRA, CPRA & primary glaucoma. Then if you have any interest in the breeds future you will want him assessed by someone who can tell you if he is good enought to use at stud. Red roans are not unusual, but the blacks seem more popular at least in the show ring. In a solid red a little white is allowed on the chest only, if yours is a solid with white elsewhere it is mismarked, at the moment he is also a bit too small if you are in the UK he should be 15 1/2" but there is time for him to grow.
When you have looked into your own dogs health you should do a check on the bitches as well because as someone mentioned you are responsible as well as the bitch owner for any returned or rehomed pups and should anyone take proceedings against you or ask for compensation for misrepresentation or vets bills.
Hi Sally,
Is your spaniel a Cocker or an American Cocker?
:)
By JaneS (Moderator)
Date 12.08.03 08:37 UTC
Sally, please think carefully about the advice you have been given. I breed Cockers myself & it's really not enough to say there are no eye problems in your dog's line without evidence of clear eye-test certificates obtained after examination by a specialist (not someone's usual vet) It would also be extremely unusual for a reputable breeder to approach the pet owner of a puppy & ask to use him at stud - as a groomer myself, I would never even think of asking to use a client's pet puppy at stud. Reputable breeders do their homework & will spend hours researching pedigrees to find a dog whose pedigree is compatible with their bitch. They would also look for a dog with a proven record in the show ring (or in the field if a Working Cocker) & will have gained as much knowledge as possible about the various hereditary problems in the breeds so that they can avoid producing these problems in their puppies, as far as this is possible to do. If you need more info about health issues in Cockers, have a look
here
By Jackie H
Date 12.08.03 09:23 UTC
You may be right JG, but the lass did say Cocker Spaniel, so I thought that was what was meant. Looking on her profile to see where Sally comes from, no clue, I see she is still at school or a teacher, which means she would no doubt need someone at home all day who could deal with the mating when the bitch comes to time, not sure if spaniel need help but it would still need someone to turn and hold. So Sally you need a helper at home who is prepared to deal with the mating as well as sorting all the health tests.
I know, Jackie, but in the US what they call Cocker Spaniels, we call American Cockers, and what we call Cockers they call English Cockers.....it gets very confusing!
:)
By Jackie H
Date 12.08.03 10:07 UTC
I see JG, gundogs not my group,;) it seems that Sally is not around today anyway but expect we will be told when/if she returns.
By Sal_Cosmo
Date 12.08.03 16:03 UTC
I'm only at school until 2:00, and the rest of the family is home while im gone. He is an American Cocker. I Live in Ohio, (United States) So there will be at least one person at home at all times if we decide to use him. I agree its very confusing about the English/American cocker thing. but an English cocker has a longer nose. I have a picture of him, but the only on in the computer is one of when he is younger. I can E-mail it to who ever
By Jackie H
Date 12.08.03 16:09 UTC
Well can't say if the colour is unusual in the USA or not, and would think the size was ok, but you will still need to look into all the other health problems. And check that someone who knows how to mate a dog is at home when needed. Still you have over 18 month before you will use him as I believe that hip scoring is not done in the USA until the dog is 2 years, mind you I could be misinformed.
By Sal_Cosmo
Date 12.08.03 16:12 UTC
Thanks! How much is a normal stud fee though. No body ever answered me.
By Jackie H
Date 12.08.03 16:27 UTC
Well what it is now and what it will be in a couple of years may be a different thing. To be honist it is a question you will need to ask in the USA, may be contact a breed club they would know the normal cost. Over here (UK) what you would get for an unproven, unshown or worked young dog without health tests would not be very much if anything. Which it is why we say get the pup assessed by someone who knows the score and if they think him a good example then get the tests done, he may then be worth the cost of a puppy per service in the UK but may be less in the USA.
Edited to say if he has outstanding dam or sire, either of whom have produced good winning stock or done a lot of winning themselves then you may find people would be interested in you pup when it is older, best way is to join a breed club so people know your intention as the last thing you would want to do would be to use him just once. In most cases once a dog is used at stud it is best to continue to use him as there is a good chance he will change and no longer be the pet you know now.
By gwen
Date 12.08.03 17:18 UTC
Hi Sal,
We breed and Show American Cockers in the UK, and visit the USA one or twice at least every year for the Nationals (biggest Cocker Shows in January and July). I am a little confused about your description of the colour of your boy - you said he is mostly black with which on legs and face? Tjhis would mean he is a mismark - either a very heavily marked parti-colour, or a black with incorrect white patches (only a little allowed on chest/throat). If it is the 2nd case, then mated to a Red and White bitch he will probably only produce mismarked black pups. If his pedigree is excellent, with many quality champions in it, then he could still have some value as a stud for a knowledgeable breeder keen to further a hybrid (cross colour) breeding programme. However, I am a little concerned at the "experts' who have told you he would do well in the show ring - as a mismark, he would not be able to be able to be shown at all. It is worrying that comeone may be trying to take advantage of your youth and inexperience and get a cheap mating for an unsuitable bitch.
Before you can consider mating your boy you need to have him OFFA and Cerf tested for hip dysplasia, slipping pattellas etc. He will also need eye testing for Hereditary Cataract, PRA & Glaucoma and you need to make sure that his parents are both currently certified clear and that there other tests are at least "good" (or excellent). You should also check that his prospective mate has been similarly tested, with satisfactory results. This is all quite expensive, and if you live quite a way away (as you suggestion that no shows are held within a 2 hour drive) you may have to travel quite a distance to get to a vet who can carry out the tests. A typical stud fee for a Cocker, with no show history and unproven, would probably be about $200 to $300. The tests alone, without any travelling expenses, would come to much more than that. You should also bear in mind that if you decided to go ahead with the mating without going ahead with the essential tests and any puppies subsequently were shown to be affected from any of the above hereditary complaints, that the state of litigation in many US states would make you equallly responsible with the bitches owner for reimbursing and compensating the pups owners ( or perhaps your parents would be held liable).
If you want to mail me privately with his parents names (or post on the list) I will check with the various health registries and friends in the States to give you an idea if it is advisable to consider using him at Stud. Please dont feel offended or upset that we all seem to be trying to put you off, but there are many pitfalls to consider, and the amount you may get as a stud pales into insignifigence against the potential costs. After all, you love him as your pet, and using him on a bitch will almost certainly change his character.
bye
Gwen
By Sal_Cosmo
Date 12.08.03 20:34 UTC
Gwen,
I miss placed the names of his parents but they are in show. They do drive 5 hours to get to the show though which is why i decided ti not show him. If its any help to you the breeder of his litter's name is Sarah L. Aber she might have something that would help.
I have got him tested for everything that is available around here. So that wouldn't be a problem. Aslo he is parti-coloured so is the bitch, only different colors. Thanks for your information. I'll get a better picture uploaded on my computer and E-mail it to you so you can tell me if his markings are good and what not. Thanks again. I don't feel that you are trying to offend me and I don't fell offended, so thats always good.
By westie lover
Date 13.08.03 20:08 UTC
But surely at this tender age you cant have had him tested for everything. I feel you are going to use him at stud regardless of the excellent advice you had recieved here from the many knowledgable people in your bred (not me!) who have taken the time and trouble to try and help you. Who has told you he is the best in your area? Unless they are long standing succesful exhibitor breeders or recognised judges I wouldn't take their word for it. No inexperienced breeder who cannot even recall the breeding of their dog should offer a dog for stud until he has good results for possible hereditary disease AND has success in the ring or field. Would you know when a bitch is ready for mating? Would you trust another inexperienced person to know? - what if things go wrong during the mating ( as can happen) and your dog is injured or even killed- would you know what to do. Two inexperienced people and a maiden dog and perhaps a maiden bitch all present together for a mating is a recipe for disaster.
American Cockers have cataracts that do not appear until they are mature dogs & so they really should not be used at stud until they are at least two years old
By gwen
Date 13.08.03 22:56 UTC
Hi Sal, Westielover & Moonmaiden,
many excellent points in your reply to Sal, Westie. To have all the necessary tests carried out you would have had to have your AKC registrations available, which give the names of your dogs parents, and several of the tests cant be done until he is mature. What is coming over is that you have a pet dog (with 1 major fault we know of, he is a mis mark) he is to immature to be properley evaluated as having stud potential and too young to have had his tests done yet you seem determined to 'get your stud fee'.
If I am misreading the situation, then post me your dogs parents reg. names, and those of his prospective mate, and I will get you all the info on them I can, if they are "known dogs", and see if I can put you in touch with a "Cocker Mentor" in your area.
bye
Gwen
By Blue
Date 14.08.03 12:09 UTC
Hi there, ( westielover2003)
Sorry missed you post been on holiday for a few days.
Apart from what the others have said there are a few other tests now avaliable for westies you may be interested in. There are not too expensive especially if you dog is very good and can bring some benefit to the breed and you plan to use him at stud.
There are no compulsory tests as yet but morally as a breed lover any test that can help iliminate problems is avaliable should at the least be considered. It is worth noting as a potentional stud dog owner it would be your responsibilty to keep yourself up to date with any testing avaliable or necessary over and above being a very good example of the breed.
Westie puppies can be eye tested , infact whole litter screening is avaliable now and is not expensive neither. My puppy bitch was done at 10 weeks old along with the rest of her litter and will be done yearly along with my others.
Some other testing that can be done is:
PKD Pyruvate Kinase Deficiency and GCL Globoid Cell Leukodystrophy.
Other things that have to be watched for is CMO and Copper Toxicosis.
The Animal Health Trust is very good for information and are very helpful.
http://www.aht.org.uk/Just some food for thoughts.
Pamela
PS Just noticed your puppy is only 12 weeks old, Please put this to the back of your mind for a while at least.
By westie lover
Date 15.08.03 21:33 UTC
PKD and GCL are extremely rare in this country. There is no hereditary testing for CMO available as far as I am aware. None of the common hereditary problems that affect Westies are able to be screened for except possible eye problems.
By Blue
Date 16.08.03 11:30 UTC
Not looking to debate this was just passing on relavant details
That is why I said the tests that CAN be done are PDK and GCL , then went on to say things to WATCH for are...........
as there are or can be signs that are visible.
Whilst I am not sure how how rare PDK and GCL are or if there has been an increase or not the testing is now being offered by the AHT who is a UK organistation linked to the kennel club, from this I am presuming there is a reason. I will need to do a bit of research on this further. A wild guess is with the success of some kennels outwith the UK and the ease of use with the pet passport theses test become more desirable as does the use of stud dogs from all around the world. Like a lot of breeds.
Alergy testing is now avaliable but generally not carried out till approx 18-24 months , so that the dog has been exposed to most things. Whilst this testing is relatively new it is being taking up now also.
People can get their vet to order in the tests which are done and then sent away. I have not used this test as yet but I gained a little info about it though one of the breed note writers who has done a bit of research into it.
Powered by mwForum 2.29.6 © 1999-2015 Markus Wichitill
