Well, I read the book 'Switching to Raw' and am hoping to get a grinder and enough ingredients to start the switch this weekend (if I can get in to get blood panels on saturday). But ... I have a few questions before I start.

First, in the book it says you can give them a 1 day fast on watered down yogurt to get the kibble out of the system. It doesn't say how much water to use? Also, is this safe for a 7 month old dog??? In the book, it seems to consider any dog over 6 months an adult (but, I still think of my 7 month as a pup! Is it safe to feed her just yogurt for a day?). I can see my older dog being ok with eating light for 1 day, but I imagine my puppy will go nuts!

Also, it never mentioned tomatos in the book. My older dog loves tomatos, and when I had a garden he would pick them off the plants himself! Now I read that tomatos can be toxic??? Is this true? Are they considered citrus? (I have also read that citrus is not good for them). Is it ok to have tomatos once in awhile?

And one more question - It never mentioned in the book about cooked vs. raw eggs... I am not sure my dogs will eat raw eggs, but they loved cooked eggs. Is it ok to cook the eggs? Or would raw be better?

Also, I am planning to start with just the veggies, egg & rbm's (will be chicken) - then add organ, muscle, & supplements a few weeks later (I am planning it this way to ease them into it, but also becaues it seems much easier for me to start small!!!) - So, I want to be sure this is healthy? Or is it better to start everything at once?

Thanks for your help!!! - I am very excited to start, but am nervous :)

Firstly, YAY for u, switching to raw feeding, its pretty scary at first!

Thinking back, i wish i had let my dogs go hungry for a day before i started.
No, i dont think it will hurt your pup to go hungry for a day, he wont like it, ill guarantee that, any more than you or i would though, but it wont hurt him in the slightest.

The only special equipment i have for raw feeding my dogs is a food processor, is that what you mean by grinder, or do you mean a grinder for meat and bones???? if so, i wouldnt bother, dogs have teeth, natures very own meat and bone grinders.

If you ARE worried about your dogs not chewing up bones properly, then you will have to teach them, i had to hold down chicken wings a few times, for my dogs to realise that they are not good swallowed whole!

I have never heard anything about tomatoes being bad for dogs. I usually use tinned though, as they have no skins, which are hard for dogs to digest.
The veg you shouldnt feed, are
Onions, Leeks, spring onions and raw potato, especially with green skins, though a little wont hurt.

My dogs all love citrus stuff, oranges, tomatoes, kiwi fruit, (dont think they would eat a lemon or a lime, but there again, neither would i!).
I believe some dogs can become allergic to strawberries, but apart from that all fruit is fine, oh, dont feed pounds and pounds of grapes or raisins, thats not good for em, though again, a little will be fine.

Basically, with veg, if you would eat the skin, so can they, anything you would discard for your own consumption then discard from teh dogs diet also.

Eggs, i feed them raw, occasionally, dont bother cooking them, that renders any nutrition from them fairly useless, also, grind up the shells and feed that too.

To the diet you can, and should add, eggs, cottage cheese, live yoghurt, olive oil/safflower oil/cod liver oil, garlic, brewers yeast, and various ground up nuts and herbs.
I also feed oily fish, offal and a good variety of meat, though chicken wings are the base of teh diet.

If your dogs are not used to eating raw veg blended up, there are some crafty tricks to make it more appealing, most people find this the hardest part of the diet to get their dogs to eat, mine love it!

My veg mix ( lasts a week for 3 medium dogs) is
Carrots 1kg
Spinach (one pack, dunno how much)
Spring greens or other dark green leafy veg)
Apples, two]
Celery two packs
Avocado, 1-3
tin of tomatoes
pack of mixed nuts
pack of mixed seeds (sunflower, pine nuts, and pumpkin) the kind you buy in health food shops.
olive oil
garlic
brewers yeast
kelp powder
sometimes a dollop of honey
All that gets blended to a disgusting consistency, adn bagged up into 3 meal size bags, and frozen.

So long as you get the right balance between bitter veg and sweeter veg, your dogs should be happy to eat it. They will also prefer a greasyer mix, hence the avocado and oils.

Start off on a basic diet with a veg mix of just a few veggies (carrots celery spinach) and chicken wings.
Gradually increase the variety, until you are happy with it. The last things you should introduce are the richer foods, ie eggs, oily fish, offal.
U may well notice that your dogs suddenly develope scurf, or get the runs, thats pretty normal, they are detoxing, bear with it, and in a few months you will notice amazing changes! (ie, you may not think your dogs smell now, but trust me in a few months you will realise they did!)

Em

Also check out the yahoo group 'Britbarf'. It's a very good email list

Wendy

Wow, thank you :) I guess I won't be needing the grinder - I was actually planning to grind the bones, thinking it would be easier to digest. I am pretty sure they will like the veggie mix (my older dog has always loved veggies & little one will eat anything). For some reason, I am worried about the raw eggs, but probably I am thinking of how I would feel if I had to eat raw egg!!!

So, I have blood panels [$ talking to my vet tomorrow, so hopefully the switch will get started this weekend. ])

~ m.

Hi Macdoggy,

Good luck with talking to your vet tomorrow. I hope he's open-minded and doesn't give you a hard time. Have fun making the switch, your doggies will love you for it! ;)

Monty's Mum :)

Hehehehehe, i can waffle on about raw feeding for ages! cant you tell????

Try them whole, and just keep the raw bones to a minimum at first, so they build up enough acids to digest them. if you should notice any large white chunks in teh poop, the next wings, wrap in an old teatowel, and bash firmly with a hammer. This way, though the bones are broken up somewhat, they flesh is still pretty intact, and chewing through muscle and tendon etc is as important as the bones.

Errrrr, what else did i forget yesterday, errrrr, yes, a good food mixer is important, dont panic about trying to acheive a balanced diet with every meal, it cant happen, doesnt happen in humans, or any wild animal, so dont worry, so long as it balances out over a period of time, you will be fine!

Another tip, if your dogs seem a little less than keen on the raw wings, (or necks or whatever you are feeding) run them under a hot tap to take the chill off them, and cut through the skin a little with a sharp knife.

And, start pestering butchers!!!!! If you look hard enough, you may well find, as i have, a good butcher who is prepared to let you have lots of bony bits for free! Yes, there really is such a thing as a free dinner!

Another thing i have found, is that, should your dog accidentally swallow something a bit too large, or uncomfortably shaped, he will most likely throw it up again, so dont prevent them from eating grass, or whatever it is your dogs do when they need to vomit.
(Urghhhhh) carefull examination of anything puked up will tell you what not to feed again.

If your dogs are competitive around their food, feed them in seperate rooms when you give boney meals, or you will find one will race the food down so he can steal the others (this happens in my house!).

Good luck with it all, dont be afraid to be adventurous with foods, and keep us updated as to how you and your dogs go on!

(errrrr, and save up for a bigger freezer, as you will discover buying in bulk is much cheaper! i now have 2 fridge freezers, one for me, one for the dogs!)

Em

Well ... I just got back from my vets. He says he tries to be open minded, but he wouldn't do the raw diet w/his pets. His biggest concern seemed to be spreading disease from raw meat. He wasn't too bad though, told me he would lean against the diet, but said the book (I brought 'switching to raw' w/me) looked like it had good info. Also, he said pet food industries spend billions a year on research for animal nutrition. I didn't tell him all the reasons I want to do raw. I can't wait until I have my 6 month blood panel appt.

Also, he had me do a full chemistry panel, and is getting me copies of the results. He seemed happy that I asked to weight my dogs every other week. I think eveyone else in his office thinks I'm crazy, and my vet might also.

I am just hoping there is a big improvement in the 6 month chem panels that will shock him. Hehe, well I know this probably won't happen ...

Anyway, thanks for all your help!

~m

Well,
Id be a liar if i said there was no risk at all in any way from feeding raw, of course there is, you just have to minimise it as much as possble.

As far as pet food companies go, yes indeed they do research animal nutrition, but its the antioxidents and preservatives and stuff they put in that causes the problems.

Their remit is to produce long lasting food, that looks appealing to owners, most dogs will eat, and wont actually kill the dogs outright, at maximum profit to them.
If you are feeding raw, then you dont NEED the preservatives, and its not been over processed and had nasty tasting vits and mins added, so you dont need to spray it all with fats and sugars!

Em

I have one more question - Can dogs get salmonella? Isn't salmonella on eggs? Is it on chicken? What about ecoli? Or are they safe from that? How would I tell if one of them got something like that? I feel safe about myself, I mean, obviously I will make sure to keep things sanitary. But, what about the dogs? If they can get salmonella, couldn't they get it from raw chicken & eggs???

I might just be getting paranoid, but I don't want to make them sick ;( ...

m

Dogs with a compromised immune system can get salmonella but we have never experienced it with our dogs.
We have fed up to 10 dogs on a raw diet for over 5 years and have raised 6 litters and are now on our 7th feeding raw.
We have never had a dog with diarhorrea or sickness on this diet, we certainly did when we fed kibble.
We start our puppies on the raw at 3.5 weeks of age and believe that exposing them to any bacteria present on food at this young age actually 'immunises' them against the succeptibility to bacteria as an adult dog and builds up their immune system.
One thing that vets never tell you is that dogs stand as much chance of contracting salmonella from a bag of kibble. When kibble is manufactured it is coated with fat to make it palatable to the dog, when the bag is opened and exposed to the air, there is just as much chance of contracting salmonella from the kibble as from raw meaty bones.
A dogs digestive system is much different to ours and their stomach acids can break down almost any kind of 'nasty'.
My advice is never ask an average vet about dog nutrition, if you have read about it yourself, you are already probably more of an authority on the subject than he is!
He has obviously been well and truly indoctrinated by the commercial companies because he said that they spend millions on researching nutrition, why does this make a commercial food any better than a natural one?
This following question is a paradox that I would find interesting for a vet to answer. When a dog has sickness and diahorrea, why does a vet suggest that a dog is taken off his normal food and given chicken and rice?
Isn't this admission that the dog's normal food is responsible for his condition?
Answers on a postcard!

snomaes

Now, I am not sure about barf ... I did not start this weekend because someone emailed me some links on the cons of barf. Most of these were about parasites in the meat, and I'm not sure I'd even need to worry about that since the meat I would use would be frozen. There were also some about bladder crystals. Anyway, I guess I am still too unsure to get started yet.

So, I guess I will try feeding them nature's balance. I have heard that is a good one that doesn't test on animals. I just wish I could find out where they get the meat product in the food.

~m

mmmm, have u read up on the downsides to feeding complete foods?

i have!
I feed my dogs human grade food, and its all frozen first, so i really cant see them getting any parasites at all!

That said, im in the UK, i dont know where you are, it isnt the same everywhere!

Em

Hi, I know about commercial dog food and what is in it. I am in the u.s. and hearing about rendering plants is what made me want to switch my dogs to raw. Although they are both healthy on the dry food, neither has skin or allergy problems. If they did, I guess I would be more inclined to jump ahead and do the raw.

I guess I need to find some farms out here that sell frozen chicken wholesale. I wish I could find a natural farm, but out here it all seems like factory farms where animals are treated very bad. This is why I don't eat meat myself, but I could see buying it for my dogs since I don't believe in a vegie-only diet for dogs (although mine do like tofu :)*).

Anyway, I thought I was ready to do the raw thing, and then I heard about parasites and people losing their dogs. I couldn't be happy if I lost one of my dogs, especially if it was to something as stupid as parasites. I am tired of all these commercial companies and what they hide, but at the same time I know my dogs are ok on the dog food, they aren't going to die.

Oh ... And another thing I read about was bones ripping the stomach lining. I read this on the internet, and couldn't tell if it was written by someone who really knew what they were talking about, but this is another thing that I now need to research.

I am still interested in doing barf, but I guess I'm not quite ready yet. I have researched, but mostly the pros, I didn't realize there was such a big con side...

Don't do it unless you are 100% comfortable with it! I read about it on the internet and chatted about it and listened for over 3 years before I became convinced it was 'relatively' safe. There are dangers with anything. I don't feed my dogs rawhide because of horror stories, but now I'll give them raw chicken bones - go figure! It took me a while, and what I do is give them complete in the morning for their morning meal and raw meaty bones at night. Some Raw feeders are okay with this - other raw feeders think I'm a total heretic and will kill my dogs even worse now than by just feeding one or the other. However I have to do what feels right for me and for my dogs, and for us, this is working. They are healthier now than ever, they are certainly HAPPIER. I keep a close eye on them when they eat, make sure they crunch the bones really well before swallowing - even check their stools to make sure it all looks safe and well.

Raw feeding is not without risks, but neither is kibble feeding or toys. STICK chasing is one of my biggest fears for any dog - there are so many dangers out there, we have to make life as good as possible for our dogs and choose their path with what we feel is best for them and us.

Keep reading - read the pros and the cons - decide if there is an agenda. A lot of the 'con' people criticise 'pro' people because it's all anecdotal, but if you look closely - the anti raw people are pretty much using all anecdotal as well.

Good for you whatever you decide - you obviously have your dogs best interests in mind:)

Wendy

A very balanced post Wendy. :) I agree with everything you have said. :)

I would just like to add that if feeding a bit of both foods, it is advisable to think about the feeding timetable carefully, to ensure that the kibble has enough time to be digested. This is because kibble is processed by the body much more slowly than meat and bones (once the dog is accustomed to eating them). So, for my day, that would mean feeding the meat for breakfast and the kibble in the early evening. Obviously, everybody's day is different. :D

I know that Wendy is aware of this, but thought that Macdoggy and others may not be. ;)

Monty's Mum :)

Thank you Wendy & Montys & everyone ... I definately have some more research to do. But ... when I went to pick up my dogs chem tests, my vet thinks my little one might have a kidney problem (my older one was 100% normal). When she was around 2 or 3 mos. old she had a bladder infection that wouldn't go away, and who knows how long she had it before I noticed. Anyway ... she has to go back for another test in 3 weeks, so obviously I won't be changing anything until this is figured out. :(

She does pee in her sleep sometimes, which could be another sign about the kidneys, but I always thought she was just a deep sleeper.

~ m

Thanks for mentioning that - yes we do know that and our feeds are morning between 5-7am is the complete food, and then evening feed is around 7pm - so at least 12 hours in between the two:)

You're right - if people are thinking of doing what I'm doing they need to know that and I left it out:)

Wendy