I was at an open show today and we were watching some judging while waiting our turn in the ring.
One lady was placed 3rd out of three and as soon as they were in the final places she went mad, how do you this and how dare you that , my dog has always been unbeaten at champshow yet you seem to think that this load of c**p is better than mine, are you on the blind register bla bla bla, she then threw her rossette at the judge and stormed off.
Does this happen often?
Do people really get this serious about shows?
The lady that won the class , it was her first show so good luck to her i say but i never want to get bitchy about shows.
You win some you lose some surely!!

Peanuts

At the end of the day...its supposed to be a hobby.And aren't hobbies supposed to be fun???
The day i don't have fun is the day i give up!!!
What is the point in being so serious about it!!You win some, you lose some!It would be a boring world if the same dogs won all of the time....!
What would be the point in anyone else entering!?
I hope the woman who won had a good laff to herself on the way home!I certainly would have!

Mel

(tongue firmly in cheek here!).

If her dog is unbeaten at Ch. shows then it's bad form for her to be entering Open shows isn't it? Shouldn't it be beneath her???

Wendy

I think that show of bad sportmanship is digusting and the woman responsible should be reported to the kennel club. How must the lady that won have felt having her dog called a load of c**p. There is no excuse for that kind of behaviour. We all like to win otherwise we wouldn't enter our dogs in the shows but you have to take the good with the bad. and what one judge see's in a dog isn't necessarily what another judge will like.Some you win and some you lose ,and as long as you always know that you are taking the best dog home with you then everything else is a bonus.

I also thought this type of behaviour was reported . I remember reading somewhere once of a lady who swore at a judge and had to go to some sort of hearing ? Can anyone else elaborate ?
Every judge should be judging what he or she thinks is the best on that day not what everyone else thinks is the best from previous shows. So goodluck to the judge and good luck to the winner . There is ALWAYS someone better than your dog somewhere anyway
Lel

An exhibitor in my breed once tore up her 2nd place card and threw it on the floor in the ring, before storming out. The judge, a very well known judge who we'll call MQ, sent the steward after her and made her come back into the ring so he could write her critique!!
I think anyone who would lower themselves to such behaviour has a serious problem, and really should have a less competitive hobby than dog showing.
I love showing, partly for the fact that you never know if you'll get best of breed or chucked out until you get there- if you get beaten by what you consider to be a poor specimen, just smile sweetly, always congratulate the winner, and remember not to enter under that judge again.
And stand back and have a chuckle when other people make t*ts of themselves!
Liz

As a fellow exhibitor, I agree wholeheartedly, my dog has had amazing successes and been completely ignored next time out, the times my dog is unplaced only serve to make the wins more enjoyable. A large helping of humble pie doesn't hurt, it helps keep my feet firmly on the ground :). As a beginner last year I had the amazing experience of an exhibitor whose dogs had just taken firsts in all their classes (six in all!!!) accosting me on the way to the benches and complaining very loudly about the dogs the judge placed 2nd and 3rd !!!!! I'm still gobsmacked at how seriously some people take it all, but in my book it isn't life or death stuff - its a hobby and supposed to be fun.

I totally agree,you should always congratulate the winners even if your crying
inside,and just take home with the thoughts another dog show another day.
It's a dog show for goodness sake.Some people take it far too seriously!

There are some people with serious kennel blindness,and it does know harm in being
chucked out from time to time it keeps all our feet firmly on the ground 4 leggged
included:-D.Also reminds us there are lots of good dogs out there and every judge
will interepret the breed standard as to what they see.The perfect show dog
is still waiting to be bred!

S with this in mind there is no excuse for bad language or any other bad behaviour
as this only serves to give showing a bad name.I think you should be banned
from your next couple shows if you use this kind of behaviour?

Regards Briony whose won alot and chucked alot :-D

I work on the basis that if I have a lovely win one show, then I am bound do do nothing next time out! :D

I think it is inexcusable for a disgruntled to p**s on another exhibitors parade and spoil their enjoyment of winning!

At one show where I was very pleased to have handled a dog to a first at a Champ show, the Reserve Cc winner was compalining about being insulted with only the reserve. I told them that I would have been over the moon with that card, and maybe she ought to let the judge give it to one of the others in the lineup!

Totally agree with you there Liz :D

I was appalled when I read this. I think there has to be a case whereby this exhibitor loses the placing she was awarded. IMHO showing for the vast majority is a hobby , we win some and we lose many ;) It doesn't matter if it is a top Champ Show or a companion dog show , it should be fun.

Can imagine the pressure to *face* judge that this poor Judge must be under?

Makes me think there should be a yellow and red card system like at football matches (and I don't maen first and second place ;) )

Melody :)

What about the other way round - judge being rude to exhibitor(s) ?? I have been lucky so far and haven't had this happen to me personally but I have heard, and quite recently, of a judge/judges being rude to the exhibitor almost to the point where if it had happened to me I would have felt they were insulting my dog :-(

This showing world ain't always a nice one is it ?! :-(

i was not happy with the judge that we that at welks,he was trying to look in chase mouth but chase was a bit worried and this as he first champshow,the judge was getting a bit heavy hand and rough with him so chase was backing off,then the judge make him sit,bye this time chase was saking this is when i said to the judge you are upsetting my dog.so as soon as i said that the judge stop,i nearly walked out of the ring but i was not going down to his leval,i new as soon as i said what i did i would not get place and i didnt weather it was i said it or not,he should have been a little gentle with the younger one,s,then in gradute bitch it happen to a bitch in that class as well,so i will not go under this judge again,i hope he as not but chase off showing and if he has i will tell the judge to he face when i see him.you got to give young dog time.
this is the first time in 13 years of showing that this as happen and i got very upset,

Poor Chase, when i saw him he was a happy little soul trying to play with my little girl.
You would think that these judges that have been around dogs for years would know that puppies are puppies and that you should be gentle, i don't know why he did not ask you to show him the mouth , it would have been less stressful for the little chap.
Ths happened to my friend who has Papillons.
She was at her first show with her 7 month old puppy and the judge was really heavy handed with her , which really scared her , then if that was not enough the judge turned round and knockerd her clean off the table.
Well as you can imagine it has taken my friend 8 months to get her back into the swing of things but she is still very wary.

Peanuts

That is an interesting aspect. There are a couple of judges where it is a positive pleasure to exhibit under them, they speak to your dog while examining it, and give every dog the same level of attention, and do not make it obvious which are the also rans. They are clear with directions, and pulling you out, no regal waving of the hand (very important when you have limited eyes sight) and generally are pleasant and set you at ease. win or losse it leaves a pleasant feeling.

there are others who can't wait to9 be finished, handle your dog like a pioece of meat, and barely acknowledging their or your existence. They seem to imply by their behaviour that they are soing you a favour by giving their opinion, for which you have actually handsomely paid! Your lowly exhibit is helping them up the judging ladder, and that seems all it is to them.

I think that's my main frustration when showing. I don't mind not getting placed if I feel a judge has honestly looked at my dog. But sometimes I feel because I do not have a 'face' that they give a cursory glance over my dog and pay more attention to the people they know (of course because they breed good dogs, but....). Or even because they have a preconcieved idea of what they're looking for. I feel they should still go over my dog properly even if, in their mind, she isn't necessarily their 'type'. That's what I pay them for!

If I go away without something but I feel the judge has fairly looked at my dog and given her a fair shot I still go away happy. It's the days when they barely seem to want to touch her that frustrate me.

Wendy

And this sort of judging comes at all ends of the scale - took Mabel Pug to a local open show (one of her first) and was delighted with her BOB & puppy Gr 2, however we had entered the AV class( being chased to put in more and more entries so calsses will stay for next year). The judge started having a tussle with Mabel to look in her mouth. Mabel politely refused at first, and then started backing off. I commented (very politely) that she was not used to having her mouth inspected, and was told "She had better get used to it is you want to show her", I replied (still politely) that Pugs didnt usually have there mouths inspected, the reply "Under me, they do", so I asked "What would you be looking for, then?" a moment silence from the judge, who then let go of Mabel, gestured that we should go up and down, and then totally ignored our further presence in the ring:(. Similar lapse of manners from a judge in Stakes at Ch show. We got 3rd, and the steward dismissed those placed below me, while judge writing critique for 1st, but asked me to stay in case needed, judge moved to 2nd, looked at Mabel & I, and simply waved his hand towards the exit! Pointed, but not polite!
bye
Gwen

Would have loved to have been there while he thought of what he was looking for LOL!!

Wendy

I don't really understand the issue with Pugs mouths as it is clearly stated in the standard

Drat, now you have me intrigued and will have to look it up! :D

Don't think judges should ever be rude but if the judge wishes to check the mouth against the standard then that is their right, whether or not it is the norm. A judge can decide what they wish to check and a bad mouth in a pug is no different to a bad mouth in any other breed. Do exhibitors really have the right to question what the judge looks at, they have the right not to enter but I hope the time is not coming that because you are a successful exhibitor you can decide what the judge judges.

Hi, you just try looking in the average Pugs mouth and you will find out why, even though dentition gets a brief mention in the standard, Judges just dont look in the mouths;) For most Pugs having teeth checked is only slightly less offensive than having nails clipped :). The position of the Jaw, which is much more important in the Pug is easily seen without opening the mouth. And whatever breed, especially with a puppy in front of them, Judges should be sensitive to the animal in front of them - I find it much more excusable for a judge to be rude to the Human handling an exhibit than rough with the dog itself. By all means, if you cant see something becasue the dog is reluctant, then mark it down accordingly, just dont try and literally force the issue (or the mouth:)) In the case of this particular judge, it was extremely obvious she did not have a clue, but was merely making a show of it - she may have been very knowledgable about her own working group, and was applying those criteria to her variety judging. Of course, had she been able to tell me what she was going to look for, it would at least have made her atttempt more excuseable.

By the way, far from being a succesful exhibitor with Pugs I am a real newbie, having been to just 4 or 5 open shows with Mabel and our very first Ch show.
bye Gwen

Know what you say is correct but did you really need to speak to the judge in such a high handed manner, when a quiet ‘he is not trained because the mouth is not normally inspected’, would have done.

The KC rule means that you can’t judge AV classes, groups or BIS unless you give CC in a breed, any breed, which means that the judge will find themselves judging breeds in a group where they have little knowledge of the finer detail of the breeds, where as those who have a good knowledge of a group, but for some reason do not give CC are unable to judge the AV classes and groups. This leaves little scope for the organising society to invite judges who really know the breeds to be judged as there is a limited number judges who have a wide knowledge of all breeds, may be about 10, so they have to employ a judge that gives CC even if they have no knowledge of the dogs that will come under them. The dog can only then be judged on a sort of overall conformation and movement way and not against the standard because the judge does not know the standard.

This is not the fault of the judge or the organising society, it is the instructions of the KC. Better is to complain to the KC in the hope that if enough exhibitors do then perhaps they will change the rules and allow some one who have a good knowledge of a particular group, perhaps on 4 or 5 of the breeds B lists, judge AV classes and groups within the group that the judge has good knowledge. At the moment someone who owns one working breed for years and has never owned anything else and awards CC in that breed because they have been in that breed for years and is very knowledgeable about that breed, is, under this system allowed to judge the toy group, even if they have never laid hands on a single toy breed before.

I don't see what is *high handed* about :

I commented (very politely) that she was not used to having her mouth inspected, and was told "She had better get used to it is you want to show her", I replied (still politely) that Pugs didnt usually have there mouths inspected

It seems polite and quiet to me ....reading the post it appears as though it was the Judge who was high handed if anyone

Melody

Hi Melody and Jackie, thanks for the agreement Melody - yes the judge was very high handed! I sometimes find it difficult to follow the dictum not to converse with the Judge versus answering the judges questions. Keeping it short, to the point, polite and informative whilst not volunteering what is not asked for requires considerable skill;) In this instance I had to volunteer info unasked as my pup was being manhandled. I know the judging requirements and regs., variety classes cant be easy for lots of judges - anyone read a couple of pieces by Andrew Brace recently when he has discussed this very subject, and admitted to making errors in the past with varieties?

My feelings are that EVERYONE deserves courtesy - judge, exhibitor and ESPECIALLY the dogs. However, some judges appear to be on a bit of a power trip as soon as they enter the ring - or perhaps they are just like that all the time?
bye
Gwen

Must have read some thing else, thought the comment was <what do you think you are looking for> I agree that judges should be polite to exhibitor and carefull with dogs but then if the exhibitor expect this of a judge they must return the complement, but then it seems I must have read this or a simular comment else where. In which case I'm sorry, silly me.

After the judge responded 'under me they do' she asked what would the judge be looking for.

So yes you were right - but in the context I still don't see it as high handed:)

Wendy

"What would you be looking for?" certainly reads as sounding arrogant. Perhaps the tone of voice used made it clear how it was intended.
:)

Hi again,
the "What would you be looking for" question was asked politely, quietly, and with empahis on the fact it WAS a question. The dismissive refusal of the judge to acknowledge that she didnt know simply emphasised how fruitless her attempts to open the mouth would have been.
bye
Gwen

Folowing on from my previous posts, is any once else feeling pressurised into entering extra classes (eg Varieties, stakes etc) which they would not normally do, just to keep the shows class average up? It seems so mean just to enter the 1 class, if that is all that is available for your breed, so you pop in an entry for Any variety or the Stakes, then what do you do? If you miss going into the class it cant make the judge feel good, having a terrific entry on paper with only a handful in the ring, or do you chance taking your precious pooch under an unkown judge, with little or no knowledge of your breed/group, and take you chance that your baby will be OK? Dont like to overshow the babes either. How does everyone else walk this fine line between supporting the show societies whilst not insulting the judge. And then of course, depending on the timing of the Varieties, you sometimes HAVE to go in if entered, to remain elibile for group of BIS.
Is this just my pet quandary or is anyone else in the same doubtful situation?
Bye
Gwen

I totally agree with you...If your face doesn't fit... tough luck. I was at a show at the weekend, my dog was placed third, the steward told my husband, who was at the side of the ring, that we didn't stand a chance of winning as the Judge was friends with the winner... I rest my case.

Many judges and exhibitors are friends, Bramble, they come from the same world :) I don't think that goes any way towards proving a 'case' that favouratism has occured, nor does the stewards opinion in my view.

I've just seen in another thread that you are not too happy with your handling and grooming yet, don't you think that might have a slight input into the placings :). I rest my case :D