My friend has a miniture schnauzer bitch who has just had puppies,she is health checked eyes etc etc.... so is the stud dog. The parents are both salt & pepper kc reg, now we have a very BIG BIG PROBLEM there is 8 puppies 5 are salt & pepper and definately look like schnauzers & 3 are tricoloured white with black/brown all over but they do look like schnauzers also.
My friend also runs a boarding kennels but she is positively sure the bitch never got out of her kennel to be near any other dogs when she was in season and the bitch stayed with the stud dog owner for 3 days whilst being mated, they were kenneled beside each other & let in together to do the business.
She has been thinking about DNA testing the litter & mum & is asking the stud dog owner to have him done also.
She has asked all her kennel staff if any dog was let near the bitch when she was in season but they have all said no.
OMG what can she do? Please please help advice anything i'm very worried for her because if one of her kennel maids have done something (which is the only thing we can think of) then she is going to go AWOL with them she's been planning this mating and litter for 2 1/2 years.
thanks Stephen.

Admin edit: terms of service

Strangely enough, can answer this as I found out the details for a friend recently!

The Animal Health Trust will DNA test the puppies - call Amanda Tanner on 01638 751000 for details. They can test either from swabs or from blood - if you do blood, your vet takes it, if you do swabs Amanda will send you the swabs for parents and puppies, and you send them back for testing. Results take approx. 4 weeks, so registrations would be held up till then.

Send samples (swabs are taken from cheeks) for both parents and for all puppies, they will then confirm whether some, all or none of the pups are from the planned sire.

Cost is £10 per sample, minimum of £50 charge.

M.

Hello all i have now finally registered after alot of trouble & only with the help of a kind person on the board called SUZE-thanks.
My friend has had the DNA testing done & the mini schnauzer dog is the sire & the dam is obviosly the dam but it seems she is the one who is crossbred because her genes arent the same gene type as a mini schnauzer or more complicated words to that effect.
She definately looks like a mini schnauzer & is kc reg.
My friend has been in touch with the person whom she bought her off but they don't live there anymore so she has phoned the bitchs breeder but he says its not one of his bitchs? but his name is clearly stated on the kc documents & signed pedigree?
What should she do? & can the kc help in any way?
She has paid £450 for the stud & planned this litter for along time the bitch has also been shown locally and she does look like a cracking little schnauzer which she as bloodtesting has revealed is not 100% schnauzer.
All help we would be grateful of.
Stephen:(

Do you know where she got the puppy from? Was it a private breeder and do they have an affix. If they do they can be traced through the KC.
Technically, however, if all the puppies are the result of 2 KC registered dogs of the (supposedly) same breed then they can all be registered as that breed! One way of expanding the gene pool ;)
Bec

So sorry to hear about you friends trouble. This illustrates how registration papers are only as good as the person registering them or passing them on! Could your friend ask (nicely) the person who is registered as the breeder if the dog and bitch down as parents could be tested, then it could be poved if part /al/non of the pedigree was accurate? Was the bitch registered to the people it was bought from? If some some research in the Breed Record Supplement might bring there name up, and they could be traced.

Whilst I agree that technically the litter could be registered, as yo now know the bitch is not 100% as stated on her pedigree you would be leaving youself open to all sorts of potential trouble from the puppy buyers (and the KC) if you knowingly issue incorrect papers - and it is proveable (which it would be in this case). Wish I could say something more constructive.
bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen,

I was thinking and you will know more about it that I but even is the 2 pedigrees/dogs are KC registered the fact that she is not 100% Snhnauzer means she can't be the dog in the pedigree so I would think legally she is not KC registered as she is not that dog. hope this makes sense.

What a terrible situation and those invloved should be ashamed whoever they are and probably never find them now.

Good luck Stephen in tracking them down, I think the owner will know the right thing to do is not register them. stop the wrong now.

Pam

Hi Pam, yes agree, that is what I was trying to get over, but with my awful typing (brain faster that fingers) the spelling errors make it not at all clear! Thsi is why, without benefit of further testing, IT WOULD NOT be a good idea to just go ahead and register, even though she has a KC certificate. If the putative parents of the bitch could be tested, the Schnauzers owners would then have a clearer idea where the problem arouse, and what action to take. In the ( unlikely event) that it is proved both parents are accurately recorded and 1 of them is not pure bred the reprecushions in the breed may be substantial if other pups/litters are involved. Without this test then the bitchs breeders can (and perhaps rightly) claim she was not bred by them, and the 3rd party from whom the bitch was bough simply did a paperwork swap

I am not sure to what degree DNA testing proves breed accuracy - I know that someone once told me that the silver/black colour occassionally seen in poodles was caused by a cross into schnauzers years back - maybe one or two crossed over the other way if they looked schnauzer! (bit of a forlor hope, and I thin a large number of dogs wold have to be sampled to prove/disprove this one)
bye
Gwen

Thank you very much you are such nice helpful people on here.
As to all your questions YES the breeder has an affix but not on his schnauzers he said they are just for making a bit of money off
I do not want to brake any rules by naming him or the affix so will not start slandering on here, but he is a judge & well known in gundogs i think that may be all i can say.
My friend Naiomi has managed to get hold of the owner of her bitchs sire & has had a bit of a heated argument with her, & it seems she still has the sire of this bitch & he has had loads of litters never sired anything other than S&P or B&S & she has bred mini schnauzers for years & has said he is definately pure bred.
So back to the breeder himself & he has now said the KC papers are from him but the bitch for those papers was a pure bred but he said the mother of the litter is now dead so we couldn't do DNA testing on her & he has no idea where any of Naiomi's bitchs siblings are.
Looks like we can do nothing to solve the problem, so all she can do is make sure all the pups get good homes i suppose.
Well Naiomi is not going to register the litter as she definately dosen't want any comebacks, she had got orders for all the puppies but has had to phone them and let them know the news & 2 of them have refused the puppies because they are wanting pure breds -god this is disastrous:( she is going to have katie spayed & is keeping one of the tricoloureds herself & giving the other 2 tricoloureds to a retired couple who recently had to have their greyhound pts because he had cancer.
She paid £400 for katie when she was 6 months old because her owner couldn't cope she is a bit hyper you see & its the only mini schnauzer she has got, but she has vowed never to buy another or breed ever again- she is sticking to boarding dogs its much easier.
She has asked for a small fee for the ones which look like schnauzer & are s&p do you think that she has done right? or should she give them away to their new owners when they come to pick them up?
Would like to know what anyone else would do in this situation?
bye Stephen.

Sorry i am just recievin a text now from Naiomi
her bitch katie sire has been DNA tested before because of a complaint by someone else who has used a dog sired by him-poss katies brother
& that the DNA results do not match the dog stated as sire of katie
does that make sense to anyone?
stephen

Well then that sounds like where the problem occured. It is possible that Katies Mum was mated to the dog purported to be Katies Da on the KC reg, but was subsequently got at by another dog, and Katie and her brother where sired by this unknown dog carrying tricolour genes (I know see how the AHY know Katie is not 100% purebred, as they can DNA test for colours, and of course Tri is not in the breed gene pool, until now!).

It could well be that as all the pups were correct colour the breeder of Katie never knew that some at least of the litter from her Dam were not sired by the named dog. Does the Gundog breed he owns carry tri?

As for selling the pups, they are at least 3/4 Schnauzer, and if the situation is explained that the Dams Father is in doubt due to the colour of the pups, I think half price would be fair, as unregistered purebreds are fetching around 3/4 price of registered ones, and many crosses are being sold for around half the purebred price. This would ohnly seem fair, as the rearing costs are likely to have been around half puppy price, especially as the Stud fee is obviously still payable, and at least 3/4 of the pups heritage is known and can be documented.

I would even go so far as to write out pedigrees for the pups listing the Dam Katie, with her sire as 'Identity in doubt' and showing sire and Katies Mums details.

I would advise that she write out a contract saying that the pups are sired by and Katie is their Dam, but as some of the pups are wrong coloured DNA tests reveal that her sire is unlikely to be correct, but that as she can pass for a ascnauzer the pups are most likely to exhibit mainlyu this breeds characteristics.

I don't know if english cockers come in tri colour? Do they anyone?
Naiomi is writing up a contract now so that when people come for their puppy they will only pay £100(she thinks its cheating them to charge anymore & feels like its all her fault)
& they agrre to bring the puppy back at 6 months or after first season to have them spayed/neautered which Naiomi will pay for to ensure this never happens to anyone else.
The tricoloured pups are hairy like the schnauzer coloured ones but much finer chested-narrow & with very long heads & tiny ears, they have brown heads with black patchs on the body outlined in brown, & one of the s&p bitchs actually has brown eyebrows instead of white.
Thanks everyone
stephen.

"I don't know if english cockers come in tri colour? Do they anyone?"

Yes they do - a true tri-colour is black, white and tan, but some people often call blue roan and tan a tri. Black, white & Tan is not very common though.

Pam n the boys

In English Cockers, the tan gene is recessive so you would only get tricolour pups if both parents carried the tan gene. Not sure how this applies to this situation but I'm thinking that a Cocker/Schnauzer mix mated to a purebred Schnauzer could not produce tricolour puppies as only one parent would carry the tan gene, assuming there was a Cocker involved in the mix somewhere? It's certainly a very difficult situation isn't it?

We had a tri-colour Cocker when I was little, so yes, they were certainly about in the past.
:)

This is a very sad and messy situation. Your friend seems to be behavingly in a more than fare way. It depends how far you want to take this thing, but if you have admission from breeder that he/she bred the bitchs litter,, he can contact the KC who will be able to tell him the current registered owners of the rest of the litter. Due to data protection they wont tell your friend, but I think they can tell the original breeder. This wont get you a whole lot further forward, but ith DNA testing on some of the siblings you could establish if they are, in fact, siblings, or if the paperwork is totally fake for your bitch.
If I understand your original post correctly, the bitch was bought from someone other that the breeder, so I am not sure if you can actually sue the breeder - I have a feeling any case would have to be with the person you got the bitch from. This might be a total dead end, as it look like it was not there fault.

Might be a good idea to check with the KC when the bitches last litter was registered - and what their date of birth was. You could then see if this ties up with when the breeder said the bitch died. Whil I know it is not going to help your friend a lot, if it look like the original breeder was either negligent or deliberatley falsifying records, and lttle more pushing and suggestions that the KC will be apprised may prompt some action and offers of restitution (possible financial?) from the bitches breeder. If they are active in the dog world they are unlikely to want the sort of attention a complaint of this sort to the KC would bring.
bye
Gwen

I didn't think the DNA tests for checking pearentage would be able to say that the dam was not of the stated breed???? After all a dogs DNA is a Dogs DNA, each individual being different, but I wouldn't think that they would be able to tell that a particular breed alwasys had similar patterns, and that a particular individual could be exclude from being purebred, just not sired by a particular dog. Can someone explain a little more for me????

Hello all,
Naiomi sends her utmost thanks to you kind informative people:)
There has been some more detective work done over the bank holiday weekend & we have been in touch with every breeder i think in cumbria & lancs (as this is the area where Katies breeder is) & Naiomi managed to get hold of a lady in cumbria who has been very helpful & we think she may have solved the problem for Naiomi's litter.
She knows of the breeder of Katies litter & has said a few years back the breeder bred alledgely a litter of 6 pups from a min schnauzer bitch 4 pups were tri's 2 were salt & pepper(or the other way round she couldn't quite remember) the breeder had blamed the owner of the stud dog he used & the stud dog owner didn't take to kindly to the blame of his dog so had his vets do DNA swabs on the stud,bitch & litter which the stud dog owner paid for. It was proved the stud dog was not the sire of the litter & something else had sired them. Stud dog owners dog had mated the bitch twice but she must have been had before the min schnauzer mated her.
Anyway to cut a long conversation short the breeder KC registered the salt & pepper puppies to another bitch who had puppies of the same age but a small litter so that the KC wouldn't question him because the true dam & litter had been DNA tested so obviously they wouldn't have registered them & sold them for £350-400 each the tri's went for £50 sold as long haired jack russels.
A year later his wife owned upto letting a fox terrier dog stay with the bitch because she didn't know she was in season!!!!!!!
Naiomi has written to the KC with this info & complaint.
Bye
Stephen

Hi Stephen,

Glad you got to the bottom of it - hope you get help and support from the KC. I am fairly sure I know the breeder in question, and he can be extremely high handed (was going to put bossy, but that doesnt begin to cover it) He has a very big reputation to hold on to, so wont take this lying down - expect a bumpy ride, but at least you can be bolstered up with the knowledge that right is definetly on you side:). Dont forget to let the board know if you need anymore advice, and let us know if you got homes for all the pups in the end?
bye
Gwen

Thanks Gwen,
Yes this breeder is very high up in the dog world we believe & he is very abrupt/stroppy whatever.
Katie is actually registered to his wife as the breeder but he won't let her talk to Naiomi,& he hasn't answered the phone for a while now anyway, he also has boarding kennels but on a much larger scale to Naiomi, whom only has a few kennels so each dog can receive proper care & attention when their owners are away. Seemingly it was a boarding fox terrier that mated Katie's dam.
I am not sure how the KC will deal with this but i hope for everyone's sake some sort of enquiry will be opened as this breeder should not be able to get away with this. Naiomi is distraught & fed up she is not at all bothered about the costs she has incurred through all this, but very upset that people would do this, she was after all breeding Katie so she could get a puppy to start showing with thats why she planned the litter for so long found the best dog suitable & done all the right things,but all this has knocked the stuffing out of her.
The puppies are all spoken for now & in a few weeks should be going to their new homes with a pedigree for all its worth :( with katies sire left blank.
I am taking a tri coloured as he is rather cute & Naiomi is keeping his sister & the other brother is going to a retired couple whos dog died recently (they were going to take 2 tri brothers but think 2 pups at the same time would be a handful:D)
& the other pups which look schnauzer like have now all got homes waiting as well so a happy ending for the little ones i guess.
Naiomi will be keeping in touch with all the owners so that none go astray as she wants the pups back if anyone decides to sell later on as Naiomi wants them all neut/spayed along with Katie who has been booked in for 3 weeks time just after the pups leave.
Naiomi & Myself truley hope nothing like this happens to anyone else & we will continue to try and find the owners of katies brothers/sisters to inform them of the discovery as such a mix up in the genes could have a devastating result for someones lines if ever introduced.
Thanks everyone
Stephen on behalf of Naiomi Richards.

Hi Stephen,

I've been following this thread with a very heavy heart. What a completely horrendous situation your friend has found herself in :(

I would just like to say that she seems to be a wonderful breeder and it would a terrible shame if she never bred another litter because of all of this hassle. She comes across as a conscientious, caring breeder who's desperate to do the right thing even when external forces make that very difficult.

I hope that you both get some joy from the KC and that steps are taken to try to rectify the situation with regard to Katies pedigree.

Good luck with your new puppy,

Fiona and the mad muddy manky mutts
x x x

Good to know you have everything under control. Just had a thought - why not enlist the Min Schanuzer breed clubs, who will, I am sure, be desperate to locate and inform the other potentially wrongly registered pups to prevent further contamination of the lines. They may be able to give a little extra push to the KC should it appear reluctant.
bye
Gwen