Hi,
Wondered what everyones thoughts were on breeders websites.Although most are a great way for reputable breeders to show their dogs and acheivements some I have found to be so obviously comercial they should be called "puppiesrus"(I think I have seen one called that!).I am concerned that people will think that if the breeder has a website they must be ok?

a website will show the dogs-the wins etc, but also type , condition, genetic make-up, then if these appeal youve always got the phone to follow up with-visits etc, the website firstly shows you the type of dogs that breeder has, also some idea of reputation and sucesses,
so first and foremost a website is a start in the process, --and as youve pointed out, the commercial ones soon become obvious on veiwing the site further,

Obvious if you know what you are looking for.Others may see it much like buying from Amazon and some of these sites make it look that easy.My concern is people just being naive or ignorant, not seeing the difference.

well if they dont know the difference wether its from a site or in real life-then theyre not going to be able to pick a better breeder/puppy anyhow,---theyve probably more chance if they visit as many sites on their chosen breed as they can, then talk to the breeders/owners of the ones that appeal most to them, a lot can be worked out once talking via the phone or meeting the breeder etc, but a website gives you acces to a huge range of pictures etc, also a lot of clubs have websites on which responsible breeders host their sites, -its not the only way of doing it, but gives you a far bigger choice and idea .

mmmmm very intresting topic.... as someone who has designed, built and hosts several "breeders" sites, I have to say I dont think I'd build a site for a "puppy farmer".

Dizzy, you are quite correct, in saying that a potential owner can see the lines, i.e. pedigrees of the dogs, having pedigrees on the site shows how closly the breeder has breed that line.

Having loads of pics on the site shows the dogs from that breeder, at the end of the day a web site can show one side or the other, it really comes down to meeting the breeder AND the breeder meeting the potential owner.

Not all potential owners make it to owning the dog they want, but we dont have sites for the owners before they buy a dog.... if they did, would we see an owner who beats their dog.... or an owner that is responsible and looks after their dog......

2 sides to every coin.

Jay

of course theres two sides, and i pointed out the website could be a starting block-however the calls and visits are what makes or breaks it, as you say for the breeder or the buyer, --these days i feel its more likely to be "BREEDER BEWARE"-----than ------"BUYER BEWARE"

I agree with you totaly,it is a real minefield the whole dog buying experience from both sides.I am in no way saying that if a breeder has a website they must be a puppy farmer,quite the reverse.I have found so much information from them,I even managed to disuade my brother from getting an unsuitable breed by sending him information from breeders websites.My point is that all the sensible advice I have read about contacting breeders etc is great but if the first website a search engine throws up is a puppy farm asking which colour you would like etc you would think that they were like that overall,contact them and guess what they have a puppy!job done!.Now I know that if they havn't the nouce to do a proper search or put in any time etc then there's no help for them but others who are just starting their search and have put "breeder websites" in to the champdogs message board search,they will read this thread and have some guidelines.

very good advice.I was looking more along the lines of what to look for/what not to look for for the average first time puppy buyer.It is easy to say don't answer dubius add in the paper etc but no so easy to distinguish with a website.Especialy one with flashy graphics and respectable sounding credentials.I have formed my own opinions on this but being new to the board I thought I would see what you all think the guidelines should be....

buy from a breeder with a track record of breeding good examples with good temperaments, you should meet the dam of any litter, she should be friendly and approachable! some breeds ask for reserved, that doesnt mean they should be doing backflips to get away from you,-also be careful of the breeder with the bitch looking as if shed like to have you for dinner, some may tell you shes protecting her pups-fine, have her brought out to meet you, away from the pups, --the pups should be well on the way to being weaned by 5-6 weeks so the dam should be easily introduced to you by then,

My last reply was for the post before yours but thank you for your points.I think most of the responsible breeders websites are wonderful.What the internet was designed for.But most of us will only come accross them when looking to buy a puppy and without the knowlege or experience to know the difference.As a web designer for breeders I would say you were perfect to answer my question about the guidelines

not sure if your replying to my post, but you need to "judge" the site for yourself, but dont "judge" the breeder until you have spoken to and/or met them and their dogs. ( i use "judge" because we should never judge anyone)

a breeder once told me that they had let a dog go to a set of owners because they would take care of the dog, look after it, etc, all the things that breeders, or the majority of breeders want out of an owner, yet the breeder did not like the owners, personality class scenario. The dog has thrived and has done very well, it wasent a show dog, just a pet.

Something else to look out for, I have seen some sites that arnt all bells and whistles, and neat graphics, the layout is terrible, doesent confirm to good page standards, the html coding is attrocious, BUT, the dogs are great, the breeders look good, pedigrees show good lines, ( I am in no way any type of expert, but when looking at a 5 generation pedigree, you dont see a single name repeated.......) anyway, site was c*** but the dogs were great.

I think the addadge (sp??) is dont judge a book by its cover, go with the advice Dizzy said when looking for a pup.

I feel that sites are there to promote the breed, then the dogs, then the breeder.

Breed club sites, should have their breeders listed on the site, with the site updated on a regular basis, a regular basis being at the very least a month between updates. All pages should be "singing off the same hymn sheet"
Whoever is webmaster of a breed club/society site should check out the breeders web site, to make sure that it is in line with the club/societys policies.

Club/society sites should also be checked by the commitee to make sure that the details the webmaster has put on is correct. Only authorised data/info should be there.

better go.....

Jay

Hi Jay,
I think in most breeds, if you see a 5-generation pedigree with no names repeated, you'd be best advised to run a mile!
:)

ok, but would you rather see the same name repeated 6- 12 times? that was what i was trying to mean.

jay

I would like to see, in the 4th generation, that the sire and dam's forebears "doubled up" several times. And in the 3rd generation certainly one set of mutual grandparents. Providing those dogs weren't awful!

Just my opinion. :)

Hi Jay,
I agree about the amatour websites,I get the feeling that they are the best kind.Especialy the ones with lots of great photos of people with their obviously loved dogs.They can be frustrating though and difficult to find contact information etc.It is the ones that are easy to navigate with nice clear "click here to buy a puppy" kind of information on the home page that I find worrying-they are not to show of proud bloodlines or latest acheivements but to sell puppies.People need to be aware of this difference.

its often very simple--puppy farmers/bad breeders. wont want to ask you anything. -apart from make sure you bring the cash!!!! theyre very unlikely to tell you about illnesses in the breed, how theyve been reared etc, or offer any follow up advice , and just about always have a litter on!!!!
then even worse---might of registered them with "THE PET LOVERS CLUB"

mmmmm, its difficult to know what to put, since in effect by this thread we're steriotyping websites, as long as people look at websites as extra information on a breed and/or breeder and get more than one opinion or look at as many websites as possible on the subject/breed/breeder then they should get a rounded view.

bit of advice, if you go to a good search engine, and type in a breeders affix, it brings up certain sites that have results on them, look at the results, who owns the dog in question, who showed it, who are the parents.

Theres lots of info on the web, its just finding it, and making sure its relevent to what your looking for.

I think we have all done a search for something and ended up with a couple of results that bear no relevence to what we're looking for, e.g. looking for FZ750 motorcycle, and end up with mistress helgas house of pain......
the result had motorcycle in its meta tags......

jay

I agree,searching the internet is a skill like any other,but to the average puppy buyer it can be a very daunting prospect even with said skill.Advice like yours is a valuable resource and I am trying to extract some experienced advice to go with the technical stuff.Where the emphesis should be is a good point.I have seen one rather disturbing website for the breed I have been looking for and that is what has sparked me off.

ok, well, at the mo, I have to go. Got the other job to do in 40mins. Should be fun!!! not!.

I'll have to post later, or mail me, and when i get the chance over the weekend, or beginning of next week, i'll send you a mail with some "helpful hints" lol

Have fun

Jay

I think like any other media, it's a mixed bag. Most are sites by reputable breeders who are dying to show off their dogs, and dont really use it to "sell" pups. However, I did see a really worrying one that accepted "Paypal" (internet payment) for kittens. :(

would you say that a good guide would be they had a kennel affix,some reference to show results,photos of their dogs looking healthy and of the standard,breed club links,health tests and maybe a bit of information about the breed and perhaps some personal background.If you were to find a few of these points then that would indicate a breeder you would want to contact.If none of these things are on a website and just references as to how to buy a puppy you should stay clear?

what breed are you looking for, perhaps i can help-if you want to feel free to mail me

Thanks dizzy,we are going to see a litter at the weekend ,a lovely breeder I found on the internet!whilst looking though I came accross some disturbing sites.After reading the advice on boards like this I was soon able to distinguish between the better ones and the puppy farms.My real concern though is how easy it is to find these sites and how someone without any experience of puppy buying or knowledge about good/bad breeders could be driving this market.They will be able to ship these poor puppies all around the world now with this wider market.I lost count of the sites I found offering to send a pup to your nearest airport!!!
I just want people doing a bit of research to stumble upon this thread and realise that a flashy website is not the only qualification for being a good breeder.
By the way it's a Boxer,we could have no other!!

Hazel...

If life were perfect....people would have done loads of research on their chosen breed before they buy..

Unfortunately it rarely happens that way!

My website, is just a little thing I created myself (not paid for!!) and it's got pics of my dogs, their names, pedigrees, and what they've won.....Which isn't a lot, as I only started showing last year!!

Take care

Lisa

Sounds like my own amateur effort using a cumbersome programme to crewate, and takes ages to load, but now I have done all that work, I am loathe to start all over again, :D

Hi Hazel,

I've been reading this thread with interest as we are currently researching breeders we would like to approach. We have found the internet to have a wealth of good information if you know what you are looking for.
We did a lot of background reading using the internet on the breed we have chosen trying to decide whether or not it was the right breed for us. When looking at websites of breeders we looked for all the things you mentioned. I found it helpful that the site had a copy of the breed standard on it so that you could see how closely their dogs were to the breed standard.

Obviously not everything can be done over the internet as to really get to see the dogs properly you have to visit them in their home environment. However, websites are a good place to see a little bit about their dogs achievements etc so that you can narrow down the list of breeders you want to approach. Having show results listed on their site is good as then you can see how well their dogs have performed in the show ring and breeders should only use dogs that have done well to breed from (as these would be good examples of their breed).

A good place to start looking is to write/email the breed club and they should be able to point you in the direction of reputable breeders. I would also recommend that you visit some shows. Personally I would stay well clear of a site that just advertised puppies for sale! Most breeders only breed when they want to keep a puppy for themselves and are immensely proud of their dogs achievements, I have found this to be reflected on most breeders websites.

Phil

Hi Phil,
I agree totaly and I am taking the same route.I am just astonished at the way some of these websites make it so easy to buy a pup.They rely on ignorance.I know the sort of people who will buy from these places are not the sort bothering to do any research,so this is most likely preaching to the converted but I think it is a point worth highlighting.At the end of the day you use your judgement when you meet the breeder and see the pups with their mum but obviously people don't and do need guidance otherwise there would be no puppy farms.The more information about how to find a good breeder the better,including what to avoid in an advert/website before contact is even made.

but then, by having this conversation arnt we giving the puupy farmers advance notice that we're looking out for them, and that they may change their sites accordingly?

another point, people are impatient, after being told they are on a waiting list, thats 12months long..... arnt the ones that "simply must have that dog"
arnt they going to go and try and get on well before that 12 months? no matter what

jay

Admin Edit

very good point Jay.Another angle is if we expose these sites and warn "stay clear" then we are advertising them.An example of this is I wanted some opinions on a website I found for a breeder in the breed i was looking for,it got pulled by admin-for very good reason but before it went I did get a reply from someone with their opinion,I didn't say"do you think this is a puppy farm?just have a look and tell me what you think....well someone replied saying"what a great website,great dogs!!"I was most surprised as she is a regular on this board and thought she would see that I was trying to expose something wrong.The puppies on this site didn't even look like the breed!!!They had no affix,no mention of showing,breeding lines,background.It was just clearly a puppy shop!!It said that their stud dog "serviced" all their bitches and they could easily get any colour you liked!!puppies usualy available(for the impatient buyer!!)All we can hope is that a few more people read this thread and realise that there is a bit more to a breeder than selling puppies.I guess I just want to say that in my experience most of the responsible breeders do not put the emphasis on how many puppies they have to sell!
The puppy farmers would have to put quite a few made up acheivements etc to look authentic and hopefully most people would see through it(but then again most don't I supose).

I had a smart business man type come to see me and the dogs as they had just lost the dog they had from puppy farm sources due to ill health ast a youngish age.

As I didn;t have a puppy available and was telling him about bitches with litters due and planned, he asked why good breeders didn't breed more so that puppy buywrs weren't forced to go to puppy farmers and pet shops when they couldn't source a puppy!

This from a supposedly intelligent articulate person!!! :(

Good breeders reduce their breeding activities because of rescue, and the puppy farmers just step up production to fill the vaccuum!

Hi Hazel, I aggree with the points you are making and have sent you a link off line to a web site that you may find of interest as I believe we are not allowed on this message board to direct to links of web sites. Am I correct admin?
Pat

Hi Pat,
Thank you so muchfor that,it must have been devastating!!I can't beleive that in the 21st century a nation of dog lovers would put up with it!Is there no official organisation trying to prevent this from happening?There is so much ignorance surrounding the dog world.I am sure that if there was some kind of nationwide campaign to make people aware of the problems that would be half the battle!My husband knows someone from work that bought her puppy from a garden centre!!!!he did warn her not to but as people have pointed out-she was impatiant,needless to say the dog had so many problems both mentaly and phisicaly that I think she was pts in the end.I am heartened though by reading your website.If only that was the first page that came up from a search engine after putting in "breeder" I am sure it would make others think twice.Many thanks again,
Hazel

Hi Hazel, thank-you for your positive comments. It is a subject (puppy farming) that I have been interested in for a long time and one that does not get adequate media attention unless of course you can present the media with a picture of deprivation, filth and cruelty. There is greed, overbreeding and lack of basic husbandry and of course the hidden problems such as issolation and lack of socialiation which causes untold problems for the breeding bitches and subsequent puppies but that is not what sells newspapers, hence the lack of interest. They want something that is heartrending, sensational, it is difficult to get the point over in such a way that the media likes.
Puppy farming and the selling of puppies from retail outlets is the root problem of the large majority of unwell puppies and later unwanted dogs. That is why I consider that identification for all puppies has to be a good basic start in reducing the numbers. I say this because if it was illegal for any breeder to sell a puppy whether it is a pedigree, cross breed or mongrel without identification, which will cost the breeder in terms of cash then they have two choices to pass the cost over to the new purchaser by increasing the price of the puppy or in the case of puppy farmers/commercial breeders who breed each season the cost could be prohibitive. Because most sell to an agent/dealer and that cost would have to be passed on to the pet shop. Most importantly the puppy would always be linked to its paperwork whether its reg with the KC or Dog Lovers UK and also to the breeder, this is particulary important for traded puppies. As much as I am against the selling of puppies from retail outlets (until there is a change in law or thinking from the DTI) then it will continue but at least if they were indentifiable by microchip tattoo or DNA and linked to their paperwork then it has to be better than what is offered now. What we have at present is a pedigree and KC reg which if given by a reputable breeder will hopefully be correct but not so in every case and particulary so if puppies are purchased from retail outlets. When a puppy is sold with the Dog Lovers UK then it is anyones guess as to who the parents of the puppy are or the breeder. All puppies sold from breeders to retail outlets are supposed to be sold with collar, tag and details of the breeder but most are not. Somehow, there has to be much more responsibilty on behalf of breeders to try to ensure that they do not over breed. I agree with some one who wrote that puppy farming is consumer led of course it is, if there was not a market for these defenceless innocent puppies then the puppy farmers and commercial breeders would not have a market to sell to. Do not forget also that many export, why someone would want to export puppies knowing where many end up I do not know but it again is consumer led and money orientated. For what other reason would some one crate up puppies and export them to countries which are known to not have the same uses for their dogs as we do, where their future is on the dinner table or to be made into a fur garment?
No one that exports to the Far East or countries associated with can say hand on heart that if not that puppy or dog but the progeny of that dog will not end up with the same fate?
I hope that all breeders on here that do export think very carefully at what they are doing and where they are sending their puppies, none of you can ever be 100% certain, can you?
Time to get off my soap box, I think!

I have every pup I breed tattooed in the ear, so that if they ever got into rescue they could be traced back to me.

If this was mandatory (chip or tattoo) then if a significant number of a particular breeders pups kept going through rescue they could be made to cough up for their upkeep!!!!

Hi, or better still back to the breeder, may not be so keen to keep breeding in excess!!

To emphesise the point I am making please take a look at this:
http://www.pedigreedogs.co.uk/cgi-bin/bbs.cgi?bbs=3&action=display&num=2479

Looked at that site - I am surprised that they are advertising a non-standard colour as an exciting novelty. :(

I thought that,also IMHO the puppies are very cute but don't look much like Boxers!!!Did you see the reply?That is my point-the avarage person starting a search is totaly unaware of the difference.

Do you have any solutions Hazel? If you do a search on Boxer Breeders in the UK you can find approximately 982 sources ..this is for ONE breed alone! Whilst there is a problem I don't think that outing all the sources on a Forum is the answer ...and if the Kennel Club registers the pups then no one is *technically* breaking the rules.

Possibly your efforts would be more worthwhile if directed at the Kennel Club?

Melody

Hi Melody,
I agree,it is not the answer and I have asked several times if anyone knows a proactive way of dealing with the problem.The reason I have highlighted this website is firstly I love Boxers and so that is the breed that I have been looking at.When I first started looking and found this site I was unsure as to what I was looking for.After looking at several others my suspicions were confirmed even more.I did a bit of searching and found Champdogs.After reading many of the posts I realised what they were doing and was shocked that they could get away with it.
Secondly I think what shocked me most was the fact that they are in the area I was looking at and before I knew what I was doing I had half a mind to contact them for a puppy!(mind you I was a bit suspicious that the puppies didn't look much like Boxers!)
My point at the start of this thread was that people are unaware of the difference between a resposible breeder and a puppy farm.If you read the reply to the post it is someone questioning why I think it is a puppy farm.I think I just about covered it in my answer but I just wanted to highlight my point that education is the key!!!If I had read this thread at the start of my search I would never have considered contacting them.I know outing them is not the answer and apart from everything else it is advertising them.I just wanted to highlight the point that people don't know the diference and that is why I have asked for some guidelines as to what makes up a good breeders website.
I have gained alot of information about the dog world from reading this site,mainly guidelines about how to find a good breeder and what to avoid in adverts in papers etc but nothing refering to the websites which in this day and age is where most people will look.If just one person reads this and avoids a website that makes buying a puppy look like buying a cd from amazon then this has been a useful thread!!
I know what they are doing is not illegal and have written to the kennel club about them.I am new to all this and that is why I put the post up,to ask for opinions from people with a bit more knowledge about the subject.
Hazel

Hazel I have looked at the site and the dogs and must to admit it is a bit vague if one compares to show breeders, hobby breeders web sites. I can only take a guess and to say that this person is breeding just for the pet market. They say that they KC reg but do not give an affix which is a little odd I admit. If Licensed for dog breeding they would come under Basildon Council Essex, but of course they may not need to be licensed if not breeding more than 4 litters in a year.
I dont think the KC will have any interest, they are only registration body and will allow anyone to register litters of puppies even children!
The Licensing authority (Environmental Health) of Basildon Council will only take interest if it can be proved that the person is breeding more than 4 litters in a year. No one is really interested in the type of dog that is bred, whether it looks like the breed standard. These dogs do not look as though they are suffering of malnutrition and their coats look ok by the pictures, for anyone to take an interest it would have to be for one or two reasons unlicensed breeding or malnutrition or ill treatment. It is a sad world but that is in fact the way it is. Sorry
Pat

Thanks Pat,I realise that there's not alot we can do and this one is not nearly as bad as some out there in cyberspace but I realy wanted to highlight the diference in the website.It gives the impresion that buying a puppy is something easy and convenient and is feeding a new market of people who use the net for everything-I do,it's quick,easy and convenient so why should buying a puppy be any different?
The internet is such a powerful resource and it gives the puppy farmers a ready market of naive buyers.If just a few people read this entire thread and it makes them think twice before buying a puppy from the wrong place then we have had a very worthwhile conversation!
Hazel