Just to let you know I have seen it Barbara and I will get back to you. :)

Best wishes, John

Hi Barbara. You’re not intending to go picking up with her then ;)

Sorry it's taken a time to get back.

I wouldn’t dream of trying to tell you anything about breed specific training of your breed, you have years of experience and would know far more than me about what makes them tick. What I will do is give a few ideas on my thinking to training.

Years ago, like a whole lot of people working obedience, I trained almost exclusively with food reward. These days it is the exception that I reward with food. Obedience can be likened almost to the 100 meters sprint. Everything happens in a relatively short time! OK, I know the test C round can be quite long but even then in total it rarely exceeds more than about 15 minutes work. Working trials take a little longer but even those are only in the 1500 meters class! The working gundog is a totally different kettle of fish and well into the marathon class. We go out into the field at around 10 o’clock in the morning and apart from an hours break at midday don’t finish till about 3 o’clock and during all that time our dogs are working. Whether that means sitting quietly at heel, retrieving or walking at heel there is no break. Walking the average dog possibly has more in common with gundog work than with Obedience. We don't want the dog glued to our leg but we do want it paying attention to us. We find that with food reward the dog tends to look at it not so much as an order but a barter system where he can accept the highest bidder! When it comes to calling him it is almost like, “OK, bit of food back there, any better offers?” I still use food with the dogs at the dog club but it is used as a training aid, a means of guiding the dog into the position I want. As soon as it knows the positions then I start to break away. I want the dog working for me rather than the food. we cannot tell a dog off if it dosen't know what it is that we want but if it does and if it is just ignoring us then that is the perfect time to remind the dog who has the tin opener!!!

The other thing we say is that when the lead comes off it does not go back on again! Obviously it does but not when running in the park or field. The reason for that is that the dog finds something like an extending lead or check cord restrictive and when the lead comes off the thought then in the dogs mind is that he is going to make the best of it! because he does not know when it might happen again. With the lead off often enough it becomes “The norm” rather that “Some exciting event” and as it is normal so the recall gets better because it is only a temporary break rather than an end of freedom.

I don’t know how your dog reacts to toys but to make the area around me more interesting than the distance I take something with me and toss it around, make a game! That way my dog is coming back to me all the time.

Never be in a hurry to put the lead on at the end of the walk. I finish with a little play heelwork back to the car or the entrance of the park and then put the lead on when I have the dog’s interest. That way he does not assocate the lead with the recall.

Just a few thoughts for you. :)

Regards, John

I think it would be fun if someone would, as I understand that many an Elkhound in the early days was used as a general help, and of course at least one I know of picks up, and another stalks deer with their Gamekeeper owners!

I think it a shame they aren't more often given a job to do in UK! One I knew in Poland was a really good duck dog, and unlike many of the breed liked water! :D

Actually with the earlier generations I have pretty well done the same as you.

Knowing that the breed is independant I have had them off lead as soon as they had their jabs. At this age they are still going to ewant to stay with you in the big wide worlsd, and here I build the habit of calling them back to check in as soon as they are out of siight. I rarely used food, as I couldn't be bothered to have to remember to have it in my pockets!

Unfortunately they are not a very toy orientated breed. they will chase it while it is alive, but lose interest after one or two retrieves. they are more inclined to make up their own games with a toy. Often I will find that they are playing chase, toss and catch, but as soon as I try to give the game direction and make the rules, it's "sod that spoiling my fun, you want it play with it yourself"

I have found they are different off lead to several breeds owned by freinds.

For example I went walking with my dobe owning freind in fields at her freinds, also a dobe owner. I was told it would be fine to let her off lead as the fileds were enclosed.

I thought they meant sheep netting or some such :D No what they meant that there were hedges around them!!! Now the doebes off lead would gallop around, and pretty well keep to the open, scanning the horizon. Madam Elkhound, well straight in the hedges,a dn through to the wood s theother side!!! If there is a barrier, and a gap can be found, one must see what is the other side.

On enquiring what was the other side of the woods, Oh the stream, and then th3e main road!!!

Well I am puching my way down a slope theough the hedge caling my bitch, and can't see her, panic, as she doesn't know the ground, and might not realise she was near a road.

Next thing I know, she has reappeared, goodness knows from where ahead of my host, as pleased as punch.

Often if the dogs go out of sight I call them, only to find that they have appeared behind me fronm a toatlly different diorection to where I had just seen them disappear!

Like you said, food I think is fine to get a behviour learned, but to a well fed dog ehat is a tasty treat compared to all those more interesting things to do, especialy as when you finally do return the owner will still be pleased to see you!!!

I did wonder if my difficulties have stemmed from not havig the training of her at the 3 months stage to have off lead, and develop the habit of keeping with/checking with me?

A horsey freind of mine who has elkhounds and Buhunds, and oes Agility witht eh Veteran Elk and a Pap, has a young son of her old boy. He had to be kept to lead excersise until about 18 months due to foot and Mouth.

she now finds that when let off lkead he will clear off returning when he is ready, rather than the more usual keeping Mum in sightr, with occasional detours to a good smell. this is how myolder dogs are. After their initail dash about, or scavenge sesiion (with the oldest) they will come back to me and keep within about 20 yeards. If I stop to chat then they will ahng avout withinn about 20 feet. the young one will often do the same, but at other times she will look at me when I call, tilt the head to the side and clear off!!!

Also she will think on her feet, and head in the direction she thinks I will take, or come back from her detour, and head in the direction she judges I must have gone, only to look most surprised when I blowon my refs whistle from the opposite direction.

When I first had her back at 8/ 1/2 monthsshe didn't recall at all, but I would just turn around, call the others, and after a moments wavering she would follow3 them. I made sure I varied my walking route around the countrey park as much as possible, changing direction frequently to keep her attention. this worked well until she turned two. By then she knew our favourite walks like tha back of her hand, andafte a very frustrating episode where she took off from one of the recreation grounds and disappeared onto some derelict land between two rows of houses I have been restricting her off lead excersise to areas where she would have to run a long way before getting into danger.

On this occasion on Bank Holiday New years day, it was after 11pm, and she would come out, check \I was still there, and go back to feret5ting behind the houses and the rubbish strewn area! I was practically intears, as even thou7gh it was late and the road was a cul de sac I was worried sick that the one car that came along might kill her. By the time she had almost come within reach when I was loudly giving treats to the others, I was abvout ready to kill her myself!

I don't expect too much from my dogs, I like relaxed walks, and all I want from the dogs is that they come back when called, respond to commands such as leave, steady, or the urgent tone in my voice if I really need them back now!!!! In return they can do pretty well what they like, as the walks are for their enjoyment as well as mine. With the older 3, with the very odd glitch i have this.

Barbara/John,

Can you remember where this thread was branched from? I think I missed the beginning of it and would like to go back and read it.

Thanks, Monty's Mum :)

click on the word 'branched' in the first post

Thanks for turning it into a link Admin! :) :)

Edited to say, "Oh, it was *that* thread!". Thanks anyway.