I didn't want to jump on anyones post here and go off the subject, but I can't help but notice the number of people discussing first litters/unreg litters etc. I'm interested to know why people allow their bitches to get pregnant/have pups. I don't mean experienced breeders who are established and protecting/enhancing their breed, but people who basically mate their dogs with little or no knowledge of the dogs or the medical side of things. I just can't understand why you would want to breed and would like someone to explain what the motivations are. What possible pro's outweigh the cons?
I'm not attacking any posters just trying to gain a little insight.:)
Thankyou,
Julie :)

Can I have your address to mail a wooden spoon to? ;) I for one, will be very interested to see what replies land on here! :)

This is just setting up for all kinds of arguing type posts and nasty outcomes.
TSK TSK
TUT TUT
Tafyparker
What kind of dogs do u own and R they registered?
ttfn :)

I agree dollface I for one do not want to reply to this post as i know the outcome.

debbie

No, come on- let's be fair she did ask a question *What possible pro's outweigh the cons?*. I find it a fair question?

Stacey x x x

Actually, I find this an interesting post too, I have wondered why people choose to breed , other than breeders who exhibit and wish to carry on their lines! I don't think this is deliberately a post designed to cause an argument, just something I've wondered myself before! T'other Julie:)

Dollface,
Yes but it's better the comments come out here than on the post of someone seeking advice. I've had rescue dogs in the past but at the moment I do have a registered dog that I think the world of.I don't breed and I don't have any inclination to do so. The board is full of arguments and as I said I'm not attacking anyone,and I don't think I have ever attacked someone for choosing to breed in the past, it's something that people on CD argue over constantly.It would be beneficial to get more of an understanding.

Lilymunster , I'm sure you have a stash of spoons but fear you may well be in need of them yourself.If you can't answer my posts sensibly, or if they offend you in any way, then refrain from answering.
Muddydogs a.k.a Julie ,I'm pleased I'm not alone in wondering about this. In previous posts people seem to attack one another depending on their point of view,but nobody ever asks/explains the motivations for having their first litter.
Stacey, thanks for ignoring the initial replies and seeing the post for what it was and getting the subject back on track.
Thankyou all for your replies and opinions, I like to try to gain a better understanding of everybodies points of views .
Julie 2 :)

Rather than delete my response to Lilymunster, I'd like to say sorry if you thought my post was an attempt to stir and a big sorry for my retaliation I'm afraid my fingers are quick to type before my brain kicks in :)Geuninely Lily, sorry. It's not an attempt to stir but I felt if I had posted as a reply on somebody elses thread,rather than create my own it would've sounded offensive. I was hoping to get some insight without putting anyones back up.

WOW!!!!!!!

I have just come back up this thread to see why people were explaining why they bred/considered it.

I didn't expect to have found such a reply to my posting. I had put that on there in light of the fact that it could just have turned into another "point the finger" thread as a few recent postings had. That was my point, little did I know I would get that respond! Please note the "winking eye smiley" emoticon!

To put the record straight on my dogs.....

I have had Munsters for 15 years now. My first LM was a dog, a fantastically natured, very handsome masculine male. 3 years later I bought a bitch, excellent German/British dual bloodlines. Addison, I didn't show as he was too laid back for that nonsense, Asti was a bit too big for a bitch but won a 1st at Crufts and several Champ shows.

After a lot of studying of pedigrees, consultations with others in the breed etc... I went with my gut feeling and mated Asti - to Addison -when she was 3 years & 4 months old. She duly produced a litter of 14 (12 live). From this litter comes a Sh.Ch. bitch (BOB Crufts 1997) and a RCC winning bitch, whom I own.

I kept Miranda because she appealed to me for her colouring etc. Ultra feminine and a sweetie natured bitch. I mated her for her first litter at the age of 5 years & 6 months to a lovely Champion dog, who is a successful stud dog but more importantly complimented her bloodlines. She had 14 pups (It's their favourite number!) of which 9 survived. I kept a bitch, who is the youngest (New style) JW winning bitch in the breed, she was BIS at the LMC's Autumn show (winning from Junior), she has a couple of RCC's and recently an open show RBIS, she is full of herself BUT she is a lovely natured dog. A male from this litter is shown very infrequently but has a RCC. At the age of 2, I feel she has a lot of winning to do still.

I repeated the mating in the Spring 2002 (14 pups again!) and I have kept a male this time. He is Crufts qualified (From his 1 & only eligible Ch.show) as is a litter brother & sister. My pup was also shortlisted for BPIS at Gundog Breeds Ch.show and has recently won a BPIS(open show).

I do not plan my next litter until at least 2004/5 and it'll probably be Mia's only litter. I put a lot of effort, time & money into my litters to make sure they are the best I can possibly produce and I would rather they be very infrequent but I have puppies I'm proud of, then breed just to cater for puppy enquirers.

Christine

Thankyou :D

Perhaps if you want to attract honest answers and comments you could have phrased your question a little better. I certainly wouldn't be inclined to provide any information for you if I was having a litter simply for the tone of your post.

Come on, what a silly question. If you have been on this board for at least a month chances are you have gotten an eyeful of why a person should breed and under what conditions and when they should not. This is so retorical. Lets fan the flames. If people are honest with themselves then they know what kind of "breeder" they are. They in my opinion fall under 2 catergories: The responsible and the irresponsible----period. You all know what that means right? Health tests cleared, health contracts, breed standard, and avaliabilty till the very death of the dogs you have breed. Jeez haven't we been through this enough? The only one point I don't think is necessary to be a responsible breeder is to show your dogs in the conformation ring. I feel that the breed standard often leaves enough room so that the type can change, so then you have the type that is accepted now, but isn't later. I perfer to set my minds eye to what I feel is the ideal within the standard and work towards that regardless of what is "hot" in the ring at the moment. There is my two cents worth!

Carissa

I think the responsibility factor is the main difference, both to the breed and the indivisual dogs (and their owners).

After seeing this issue come up time and again, I would like to add my bit.

Being a first time breeder does not make you irresponsible only inexperienced and everyone has to start somewhere. As long as you have carried out all the required health checks, have a stud and a bitch whose pedigrees complement each other and are good examples of the breed (according to the breed standard), and are prepared to offer support for the resulting puppies for life, then I feel you are a responsible breeder.

Any amount of experience does not necessarily make you a responsible breeder. As for only breeding when you want to keep a puppy yourself, I though a breeder had to be registered if breeding more than five litters a year (correct me if I am wrong) so surely these breeders do not keep a pup from each litter (I know of at least one that definitely doesn't), so these people are producing lots of puppies - is that responsible, whatever the quality?

Finally, I do not think that simply because you show your dogs, that means that you can breed, while others who simply keep their dogs as pets should not (I am talking of dogs of similar quality). In my opinion, a dog who is shown is not necessarily better than another who is not.

I must be honest and say that this issue is particulary close to home as my sister bred her bitch (pet dog, never shown) last year. She wanted another dog and hers (3 years old at the time) is beautiful with a wonderful temperament. She had all the required health checks, went back to the sires kennel for a stud, sought a lot of advice and did a lot of reading. Three beautiful, healthy, well balanced puppies were found homes for (one in USA) and she has had letters (and photos) from all new owners to say how pleased they are with how lovely the dogs are. I will argue with anyone that she is not a responsible breeder.

I must say that although I personally have received good advice from the board, I would not post at the time asking for advice for her because I had seen how some people reacted to those asking for advice on first time litters and here it is happening again. I do not wish to upset anyone, but if someone is asking for help, they cannot be that irresponsible. Obviously, not everyone does things the way we would like, but that is life. You cannot change what people are going to do by not offering advice.

Anyway, after months of remaining silent on this issue, I have now said my piece. I truly hope I have not upset anyone and I am sorry my post is so long.

Fiona and Saffy

:)

Hear Hear Alexanders

I totally agree. I am new to the dog owning world, but I do know a bit about horse breeding. Most breed for quality, for the pleasure of bringing great specimens of the breed in to the world. Others who I would call the irresponsible breeders appear to have no ethics and breed there animals simply to make money out of them. This personal gain is unacceptable.

This fact should not however mark responsible breeders and those who breed with knowledge who simply love their pets / friends, with a bad name.

I certainly see no problem in breeding animals, if the correct proceedurs are followed, and the animals welfare is always thought of.

Thankyou for listening
linzi

I never have or do not intend to ever breed, but that is my choice, what makes an experienced breeder? surely they were not experienced when they had their first litter, every one has to start somewhere
carol

Read Alexander's posting....it explains very well the difference between argument about
Inexperience vs. careless breeders

No one is attacking inexperience or newness....just make sure that you're doing everything possibly 'right' before you get into the whelping puppy stage and not afterwards. By then, it's too late.
Learn a bit before leaping into the full fray of selection, mating, pregnancy, whelping, and aftercare. Consult with those who ARE experienced and don't just go by neighbors or relatives because they're 'telling' you what to do :D

Of course, accidents happen. It's those that put two dogs together because, "everyone should" and think everything's perfect or 'natural', that I take exception to :rolleyes:

I would have to disagree with some of what others have said. I think that new and inexperienced breeders are 'jumped' upon and 'shouted' at on this board. When I first came, for example, I didn't know all that I do now. I ask some pertinant questions and found out very important aspects of breeding. I almost didn't post another question after the first two I asked resulted in accusations of breeding only for money, having no regard for my dogs health, ect. However that was not the case... I simply didn't know the answers... obviously or I wouldn't be asking the questions!!!!

Just for general information: (I have not bred my bitch (9mo Aussie) yet and am not planning to until the summer of 2004 when she will be 2and a half yo. I am still researching pedigrees and gathering information, building facilities, buying equiptment, ect. She will have the health tests and she is AKC and breed club registered.)

I suppose many posters that are worried about the lack of knowledge from would be breeders may come accross rather passionately, especially about their own breed or one they have been involved in, especially on the Rescue side.

The concern stems from the fact that most would think a board like this would not be the first place a would be breeder would gather information, so that when a post is put out wanting a Stud for my bitch now, to offer a dog at stud, or worse someone ha already mated a bitch without being in possession of th4e full facts and implications of breeding that the tone becomes somewhat heated.

I imagine most of us seriously involved with our breeds were mentored by at the first instance, our bitch's breeder and/or the owner of her sire.

With my first dog of a differnet breed than that which I have bred I spent ages poring over breed books sollecting photos and references about the dogs and bitch's in her pedigree. I joined the breed club, and asked for pictures and information about the dogs in her pedigree. In this way I found out that her Maternal Uncle (Dams litter brother) was an epileptic (breeder was not informed of this until after the sister had been bred from, and the litter were 18 months old). Also in my bitch's litter one of her sisters became epileptic after her first season.

I had had my own bitch Hip Scored (not eye tested, as at the time BSDs had no eye conditions listed as hereditary), with a nice low score of 7 total, and could well have bred from her. Knowing some more family history that came to light once she was over the age many would be breeders might have bred from her (over 18 months), I am glad I did not. I had her spayed!!! None of her litter were ever bred from.

Unless a breeder chooses to involve themselves more deeply in their breed than just their own dogs they cannot make breeding decisons with the required knowledge.

Careful breeders are sick to death, especially in popular breeds, with being tarred with the same brush as the unethical, and having to defend the title breeder, which should be a name to be proud of not something one has to Qualify and explain with some embarrasment.

Thankyou QT :)

here here cazmar!how's blade ?it's milo's mum.i totally agree, every person is inexperienced at first, i think some like to forget it though!:)

I have an acquaintance who owns two Golden bitches. She intends to breed one of them, her favourite I suppose. She does not show. That's certainly not a crime or a prerequisite for breeding. Not every bitch or dog of good quality is shown. When I asked her why she wants to breed she said, "I want a puppy." This lady can well afford a puppy, if that's what she wants. When I ask why she wants a pup from her bitch, she just shrugs her shoulders. I've asked her if she's had the hips of the bitch she intends to breed X-rayed. She said yes, although I do not believe her. Tells me there is "some woman in Southhampton who will X-ray without putting the dog under". That's nice, I say. Then, she asks me, "do Goldens have problems with their hips?" Makes me want to scream. She is having problems finding a breeder that is willing to provide a dog at stud. I ask her why she is being refused. Again, the shoulder shrug is her response. Eventually she will eventually find someone willing, I'm sure.

The truth behind it, I believe, is that she wants another pup and wants to make some money from a litter as well. Maybe there's no crime in that either.

This woman loves these dogs and treats them well. She is a responsible owner. But, is she a responsible breeder? I do not think so. She is basically ignorant about the breed, its health problems, and I am sure has no idea if the bitch she wants to breed is a good representative of Goldens.

Just my opinion,

Stacey

Right, I didn't read all the replies on this one so if I am repeating anything already said then I am sorry.

I am expecting my first litter, I have thought about this long and hard, prepared everything as far as i can, done everything necessary and am willing to follow every puppy through till whenever. I don't think I am being irresponsible - I want a puppy, and i have about 10 other prospective owners - considering cockers have on average - 4/5 pups then I am not having more than i can rehome.

What i would like to say is this - even breeders that are well recognised and respected do some very unethical things - i know this for fact - i will not mention breeds or affixes here but i do know of a very respected breeder - who would register puppies under a different dam cos she had already registered a litter that year, different sires cos the one who was the actual sire wasn't show quality and she wanted to charge show prices, or use a different dam's name cos the real dam was too old - over 8.

All this from someone who had people queing up for her puppies, won places in shows and was considered a good authority and well respected in her breeds.

That is what i consider unethical and disgusting - not someone like myself that does everything right - even if it is for the first time and having little experience, and someone who doesn't show but would like to in the future.

Nikki xx

nicki-------two wrongs dont make a right! its no use comparing to unethical breeders, surely its those who breed well, -take all of the health tests-produce sound pups and standby the puppy owners,
and i must of got mixed up, you aid youd thought it out well and done all you should, i thought youd said you never had your bitch hipscored-!! a very big part of breeding from a rottie :)

Sorry it took so long to reply - lparkins up to her old tricks again.

I'm not saying that a right is made out of two wrongs - just that there are well respected breeders out there (and the one I am talking about is very well respected) who seem to do everything right but are in fact lying. I know and you know that what they are doing is unethical but people still want their puppies and there is no way of knowing anything about the dog's health, temperament etc cos they aren't registered against the correct dam or sire

I would like to add that I have agreed with a lot of points raised by you - dizzy - on other threads and topics.

Also - I have a cocker spaniel - not a rottie, and i will put my hands up to not having a proper hip scoring - i didn't know the ins and outs until i came on this site, I just took my vets word - very wrong i know, but it's too late now - by the time i knew - she was already expecting. Having said that - as i want a good reputation etc - i will inform all people who buy my puppies of this and will get ebony properly hip scored - the sire was hip scored - and if there is a problem - then i will inform the new owners etc and take them back if need be - and yes i do have the room to do this etc etc etc - you know what i mean, I'm just running a bath and came on to check - so bye for now - will check on here again later

Nikki and a very round Ebbie xxxxx

sorry---i think ive got rotties on the brain [cant think why]!!!---if you have cockers then ive no idea what the tests for your breed would be, id imagine eyes, but wouldnt know if they ask for hips or not !!!--but at least youre willing to take it all in for next time :D. good luck with them, did you anage to get your tail docking sorted out ok ???

Ooops - now that is the one thing I hadn't thought of - thanx Dizzy, Ebony is docked, I don't think my vet will do the docking. I'll ring Ebbie's breeder - she was a member of the docking council - i hope it isn't too late - they are due in a week and I know u have to have them done by 3 days - I'm holding my hands up to the one thing that slipped my mind about breeding.

If i can't get hold of the breeder - has anyone got any contacts - I live in Enfield.

Thanx

Nikki xxxx

no clue where enfield is---theres a vet in grimsby docks, -but if you felt one of your cockers was going to a working home, some vets will still do gundogs, or join the council of the docked breeds, as its a late membership youd becharged a touch more to join,

Enfield....a place not far from Chingford, where a certain beautiful, glamorous breeder of superb Munsters comes from! Ring any bells? ;)

Mmmmmmm I wonder what bells might be ringing - and yes enfield is not far from chingford, how r all the munsters?

Nikki xxxx

Hi Nikki!

Munsters are all well, thanx for asking! Is Pearsons still around? I did 1 weeks work experience there when I was at school!!!!

Hi Nikki,
You could try phoning The Council Of Docked Breeds 0700 781 262, they maybe able to put you in contact with a vet in your area.
Good Luck With your litter.
Best Wishes
ILOVEDOGS

Hi,
I would think that if EVERONE knows that this breeder is "lying", they would avoid her stock like the plauge. If,indeed, you DO have the "facts" on her, I am sure that others would be appreciative to be warned. I am not in the UK, but there must be someway she could be "officially" checked out? Can DNA tests be requested there?
Just one other thing that does bother me a bit about this whole "breeder" being a bad word thing- it is not. It is a good thing. None of us would have the dogs we cherish without breeders and frankly, I get a little tired of hearing people say, "Oh! I will never breed!" and even worse, "I ONLY breed when I want a puppy for myself".
Why the latter? Because, if you just want a puppy, BUY one! If you breed a litter every few years "just to get a puppy for yourself", in my opinion, you shouldn't be calling yourself a breeder.
I am not advocating breeding a bunch of litters. But in MY mind, a BREEDER is someone who KNOWS her breed and has a PLAN to improve something about it. Hopefully, a lot of things, like health and structure and temperament. You cannot do this breeding three or four litters in a lifetime. You might breed nice pups, even winning pups, but they will be status quo for the day.
I cannot afford to breed as many combinations as I dream of, but EVERY time I have a litter, I PLAN to keep at LEAST one puppy. If not, where are you going? What are you doing? If you just continue to breed the same dogs until they are too old for it, you are simply producing dogs, no matter their quality. If you get what you were hoping for out of a breeding, then you go on from there! You don't just keep doing the same thing over and over. And why on earth would a Breeder have a litter if they weren't anticipating keeping something from it?
I am not sure that I am articulating my point very clearly, but hopefully you will understand. I will never "apologise" for being a Breeder.
TiaLee

To answer why a breeder would breed a litter when the weren't planning to keep one.

Perhaps it also depends if your breed is a popular one, or numerically small.

In my own breed I beleive if litters were restricted to those only the breeder had intentions of keeping one from then the breed would cease to be viable in this country. as it is there is little choice of bloodlines when only 14 litters are bred a year, and only a handful of males will become Stud dogs. Our annual registrations have fallen to under a 100 a year.

By breeding a bitch two or three times to different males, allows the breeder to gauge what characteristics the bitch's side of the pedigree is passing to the puppies.

this allows the breeder to make better infromed breeding decisions in the subseqyebt generations.

Most people have a limit to the number of dogs they can keep.

My own prefered limit is 4, though I view 6 as an absolute maximum, taking into account room for for any dog that needs to return to me for rehoming, etc.

I have already reached this maximum, and it is quite possible my oldest bitch could live another 5 or 6 years, though 2 or 3 is more likely (she is almost 11).

Now my youngest, who is a Champion, is already 3 years old, so will need to be proven before I am likely to have room to keep another.

Also if one breeds good stock that others show, and breed on from, one may be able to get back ones breeding if something goes amiss later, or take a different branch of the family is one finds the path one has taken was not beneficial. The value or otherwise of ones breeding stock sometimes does no9t emerge until several generations later.

Every litter I have bred would be a combination I would be happy to keep somthing from, but sadly I cannot, but am very happy if I can get someone else to show a nice one.

I have bred two overseas champions, and a CC winner, as well as other Champ show first prize winners in litters that I have not kept a puppy from, and very proud I am whenever their owners do well. It is one of the pleasures of being a breeder for me.

Thankyou Nikki, wish you all the best
Julie :)

Stacey don't agree that your friend is doing things right but there is a very reputable lady in Southhampton who does do hipscoring with just sedation can't bring her name to mind at the present but she has been recomended numerous times on a border collie group I am on Gillian

It is probably the same person people in my breed will travel to to have their dogs hips xrayed, as she gets very good plates, and subsequently the results always seem to be very even.

The ladys name who does the hip scoring in southampton is Marylyn
And if anyone needs her number then let me know.
She is brilliant and I have just had my youngster hipscored down there.

Hi, totally new to this, so I hope I am doing this right.
I have an OES who I want to get hip scored and a number of people have told me about a lady in Southampton, but nobody seems to know anything else about her.
Could you let me have some details and a telephone number if possible?

Thanks

Welcome!
Does your vet do hip-scoring? Worth asking.
:)

Hi Helen,
Welcome to the board :)
I've mailed you
Joan

If she does get the health tests done, and works with an experienced person, like the bitch's breeder, and will take full responsibility for the resulting puppies for life, then she is being responsible. though I still think that if she has no real passion or knowledge or aim to mintain/improve the breed, then I would feel there was little point, especially as a first litter done properly with all the facilities equipment needed will cost a lot, and she will be more than likely well out of pocket, and have to be thre for the next 15 years to help thye new pups owners, quite a long term responsibility simply just to have another puppy. Mush cheaper and less trouble to buy one from a breeder who does have a real interest in furthering breed development.

So no it aint a crime if they really will be responsible for the pups after they leave them, and have the health tests done, and use a compatible Stud.

I would also just like to add that barring any horrible complications/illness etc - I will break even only if Ebony has 5/6 puppies, and I don't hold out much hope for that - her mum had a litter of 2 then 4, and the average is only 4, so i would only gain money from further litters of 3 or more pups - which is not something I am planning on doing with Ebony, I would however like to continue her line so would consider breeding from her daughter (fingers crossed) but that wouldn't be for a few years and by that time I would need new everything - so again - break even point quite high.

So - I am not in this for monetary gain, god if my ex could see my credit cards bills - he'd go spare!!!!!!

Nikki xxxx

Oh and I got my affix the other day - my daughter was very disappointed - both my first 2 choices were her name - but i didn't get them, I got my third choice which was Jakieboy.

Nikki xxx

Here are my circumstances, and my reasons for breeding my very first litter, planned for late spring 2003.

I have owned and shown dogs for twenty nine years, with moderate success, no champions, but consistent Crufts qualifiers. The reason I have not had huge success is, I believe, because I do not rehome those dogs that for whatever reason do not make the grade, my home, is a for life home.

I'm currently associated with a very well known and highly successful show kennel and I've been lucky enough to aquire two bitches of outstanding breeding potential, on breeding terms.Until now I have had no intention to breed anything.However, my hand has been forced, if you like, and I'm s*** scared of the responsibility that I'm now faced with. However I have the support of this very experienced breeder and I know that he will be at the end of the phone any time I need him.

The bitch I'm breeding from will be on her fourth season, and two years and nine months old when she is mated,( small breed ) all going to plan.I have bookings for five puppies and the average size litter is five pups. Eye testing is to be done in the new year, and the iminent availability of a DNA test for a certain eye disease will be taken up ASAP.I hope I fall into the category of responsible if not experienced breeder.I fully intend to do everything in my power to make this venture a success for everyone involved. I suppose I might get alot of pleasure, out of this, but I'm too busy being apprehensive, and anyway I have my end of a bargain to uphold.
Dawn R.

Hi nikki
If you need vet to do docking I am 30 min drive from Enfield just nr lakeside can give you a number email me if you need it.
He docks from 3 day until 6 days no older and removes dew claws at same time.
Sandy.

im sure you'll be fine :D . and yes you have a VERY experienced person to help you, and we all have to start somewhere, i showed for around 19 years before my first litter !!!and i know youve worked your way around it all too, good luck with them, i bet theyre gorgeous.

The perfect description of a resposible breeder. Not experienced, but that will come. Everything so far is positive. FANTASTIC! More power to your elbow!