Hi All,

As some of you know we are due to move house on friday. The property that we are buying is a semi, with only the 2 houses in the row. The lady who is selling has been there for 50 years, and actually owned both properties - one was rented. As she owned both the garden was never split up.

Before exchange for either property she put in a fence to divide the garden.

Yesterday we went down to meet the neighbours as she put ona little party to introduce us to the community. After this we went next door to have a cup of tea with our immediate neighbours who moved in on the 6th nov. Now, they apparently have a problem with this new fence - they say that it is not in the right place, and should run from the centre point of the property to the edge of the garage - this would take 4 feet from our garden all the way down, bar the last 6 metres, where it would take 2 feet. This last 6 metres is indeed in the wring place, as it passes the cross point of the house... but they have failed to take into account the fact that the garden itself isn't straight, and to be frank - we paid a larger amount of money and therefore were guarneteed the larger garden.

If they had a probelm with the garden divide should they not have taken it up with the lady before exchange? Is it really our problem - they bought the property knowing the divide, and it is only since their parents came round that they have kicked up a fuss. We are quite happy for them to pay for the last 6 metres to be angled correctly, though the fence is our responsibility - but do we have to do anything else...

Sorry this is so long, and probably quite complicated, but it has really put a downer on the most exciting thing to have happened to us!! We really love this house, and plan to stay there for years, but one of the main reasons we bought it wqas because of the garden - and it would be terrible to fall out with the neighbours before even moving in!

Please any suggestions?

x Alex

Alex ..two things ...firstly this should have been sorted out before exchange of contracts ...and secondly , simply check on your papers ..you *should* have a copy of your boundaries , on a map of your place. This should give all the measurements.

Ring your solicitor , the one you used to the house purchase and explain the situation to him/her ..and then leave it . Try and keep friends with the neighbours in the meantime as this is the sort of thing that can escalate ;) Maybe a compromise is in order? Share the cost of moving the fence (if neither of you are bothered about where it is?)

Melody

Hi Melody,

The thing is we are very bothered about it - if they get what they want then we actaully end up with significantly less garden than we payed for! - and less than them, though we paid 50 thousand more! I am happy to compromise about the last 6 metres at their expense, but dont want to give up the large part of the garden at the top. They were well aware of the split when they bought.

Unfortunately though it seems that the boundaries are not drwn up that specifically - ie no measurements, just that it runs from the cross point of the house, diagonally, to about 4 feet out at the end of the garage, as the garage is ours, but they have a drive way theere as well, and we have right of way over their drive. The fence also cannot go in a staright line as their are disused cess pits on our side of the garden...

Aarrrggghhh

In that case , simply ring your solicitor and see what he/she says Alex ....50k is a LOT of money ..and as you said , tis odd how they didnt bring this up with the woman you bought from ...maybe they thought you would be an easier target?

I would think that the previous owners wishes would be taken as law in that case ..if she put the fence in ...and then you bought it *appears* failry cut and dried ..but ring the solicitor now!

Mel

Thanks Mel, Am trying , but he doesn't get in until 10!!! ;)

TYPICAL!

:D

Let me know how it goes Alex

Sorry I don't know much about this stuff but surely your solicitor knows exactly what you are paying for ,
How long has the boundary been visible I'm sure there is something about ....if aboundary has been visible and accepted for ........?.....then that stands .
Sorry if that doesn't make sense
I'd just give 'em the cess pits :D ( sorry only joking )
I should also imagine the onus is on the seller otherwise isn't it misrepresentation ?
Hope you get it sorted -but don't let them bully you
liz

Hi Alex, sorry this worry has happened :(. A small part of our back paddock is fenced off to allow access to the field behind. The fence was there before we moved in although the land belongs to us. Apparently if land is used for a period of time by someone and the owners don't object, the someone can make a legal claim to it. So we were advised to demand and get a rent (we charge 10p per annum :) ) in case the field is ever sold to someone that we don't want to oblige. But that's in Scotland and I've no idea if its relevant to you. Hope someone who knows about this comes along soon and that you get it sorted.

Details of you property & land will be on your deeds. And as land it should be registered now you should have no problem. Contac the Land registry for your area and they will help. Ja:)kie

I think you will find you are in the right, the biggest thing is how to deal with it without making enemies before you even move in. Get your soliciter to deal with it...they bought their house with the boundary fence perfectly clear, so they will not have a leg to stand on.

Alex- I haven't a clue- I would have thought though that somewhere in what you were paying *extra* (50k) you are paying for the larger garden. And if the woman owned both and she divided the two- then she obviously wanted yours to have the larger garden and it must have crossed her mind that she could *up* the price accordingly for this Is it possible for you to contact the lady that sold the house to you and ask *out of interest* so you don't stir anything up. I agree you should avoid any dispute over this- but not to the point where you lose land over it.

Stacey x x x

Alex
You will have paid a LOT of money to your solicitor - HE must sort it out - or you can claim against him!!!

Have spoken to the solicitor, and he says that it is a dispute between them and the lady that sold the property, and nothing to do with us...

He has also said that they bought it as it stood, and signed the contract based on the plan - but this seem to be where the problems start... The plan is minute - and onmly shows a very very rough land mass area, no measurement or anything - and the plan makes it look like they have more land...

I have been unable to get through to the seller - though she has said that she intended for us to have the larger garden, especially as we have a smaller courtyard area at the back of the property...

Am fit to burst at the moment - it seems everything is going wrong!

Hi Alex
What an awful start to your new home!
Your solicitor is right, it is between the neighbours and the vendor, but that really doesn't help you if it's you they intend to lean on. :(
Don't know why some people can't just accept their lot and be done with it! It makes my blood boil with the "compensation based" society we live in it seems they expect something for nothing all the time. We had a prob over our old neighbours claiming unreg'd land in our last house, over which we had right of way.
I think you are right to offer a compromise with the last 6 mtrs, perhaps you could get your solicitor to write to your new neighbours and offer it officially, but emphasize that that will be an end to it as with you paying 50k more you DESERVE a bigger garden.
I hope your vendor comes through on this and puts the neighbours straight on why they got what they got.
Good luck. :D
Nicky

I know - just when you want things to go smoothly...

Oh, and to top it all off - the next door neighbour (lady) is petrified of dogs, and allergic to cats - a match made in heaven with my lot!!!! :(

Oh dear!
She'll just have to stay away from the fence then won't she? ;)
Nicky

Alex

Good luck. When we sold our cottage we had problems with a strip 50 yards by 6 inches. It took 12 months and £1500 to sort out

Best thing is to leave it to your solicitor. Otherwise, that's how feuds start and we wouldn't want to see you on "Neighbours from Hell" :D ;)

9th

When we bought our house it was discovered that the boundaries were wrong, there is a brick built shed straddling the 2 properties, my neighbour has extended his house and this now forms part of the kitchen. The deeds showed the line going straight through this shed instead of twiddling round it, so he owned half our shed and we owned part of his kitchen, it took three months to sort it at the ex-landlords expense.
I know on our original deeds, which the solicitor has, it shows all the measurements on the land registry document and I'm surprised yours don't too.
We were lucky to have inherited some money and were able to buy the place outright, if you have a mortgage could you not try the mortgage holders to get a copy of the the deeds. Ingrid

I could try... But the main problem with this property is that no boundaries existed before the sale - the other buyers were even there when the fence was put up, and made no complaint though they had the plans... I know that it sounds weird but it seems to e the plans that are at fault s they do not explicitely show where the boundaries are, or comply to the vendors wishes!

Alex if there was no boundary before the sale, the vendor wants the fence where it is now, you paid more for extra land and the only question is over an (architects?) incorrect and inadequate plan, I suspect the neighbours are chancing their arm and don't have a leg to stand on (very anatomical that :) ). So I wouldn't compromise or offer to give them an inch. Unfortunately between this and not liking animals, they sound as if they may be a right pain :(.

From our experiance fences don't mean anything it is where the line on the Land registry maps are that count. We have a field in which is a stock fence (not on the boundry) and a neighbour who bought a house with an allotment that adjoined our field, they were told by their solicitor & the estate agent that their land went down to our fence. They were very upset when we told them it did not, and they called out the Land Registry people who told them that a fence is not a boundry, and they should look at the deeds of their property. Ja:)kie

Alex

The amount you paid is irrelevant - I know it's a lot of money - but that doesn't matter a jot. What matters is what you were told you were buying and that what you were sold was their's to sell. The fact you are paying more does not guarantee you the land. What guarantees you the land is that it was their's, ie the lady's, to sell and that that is what you have signed to buy - ie on the contract. I guess you need to find out what it was she sold to the poepl next door coz if she'd sold this land to them already then it wasn't hers to sell to you. The current position of the fence does not prove anything either, only that they should have complained when it was being erected if they felt it intruded on their space.

Land registry drawing are regularly misleading as what is a pencil line on a piece of paper of a property outline can equate to several feet in real terms. I do think this has been complicated by the fact that the owner has just decided to sell the two properties together and split the garden. There is no "existing" owner with whom agreement has be made as to where the boundary will be .

Your solicitor is totally responsible for sorting this out - but watch what he charges you for. If you can talk to the people - that would be better. Try and see if they have the plans for their house and garden - that might show something up.

This type of dispute can become very acrimonious and cost you thousands to gain nothing. If you end up in court over it a judge will oftne just split down the middle - no winners no losers:(

Good luck - you're likely to need it

Pam n the boys

There is no way that we can end up n court over this though as it is not nor ever was our responsibility! they can only take the seller to court, as we have done absolutely nothing at all with the fencing... And belive me there is no way that this plan can be taken as it stands - the entire building size on said plan is 1 1/2 inches, by a half an inch - and that is all any one has to go on... Surely the fact that the seller put the fence up as indicated by a stump and rope job, that was measured by a surveyor, which was there when we both went to view the property, and the boubdaies themselves were drawn up by the vendor - where she has put the fence is where it is supposed to be???

I think you could end up in court if you try and move fences once you've moved in. Therefore better to get it sorted beforehand.

Plus. Try and do as much as you can yourself. It's worth remembering that every phone call your solicitor takes from you and every letter they write on your behalf, will cost you money.

oh i know that ! The neighbours are so far being very friendly and apologetic - but they can not prove in any way that the land is there's... the cess pit thing as well will make moving fences hard, etc etc. And we are not the ones who are thining about moving anything!!! Quite happy with it as it is...

Alex

You can end up in court over this if you continue. Once you have exchanged contracts and complete, you are the owner and the neighbours dispute will involve you no matter which way you look at it. What if the neighbours do take the lady to court and the court finds in their favour. Where does that leave you?

As far as I was aware - if there is an ongoing boundary dispute - you cannot sell a property. This is certainly what one of my memebrs of staff has been told by her solicitor as they have a dispute with their neighbour - over 6 inches of land!!! To date it's cost my mate over £2500, Please Please beware. I know it's very painful if something falls through at the last minute - but you do need to sort it before you sign and move.

Talk to your solicitor about the state of the contract. I presume you have signed. If you have been sold more than it looks like you are
going to get then you will have legal recourse against the vendor for breach of contract.

The fence may be where the vendor put it when the surveyor was there - but it "might" not be where she put it on the the deed of sale of the neighbours property. As they have bought and completed before you - I would hazzard that what their deeds show is what will be taken.

I know you are the innocent victims here - but in land cases - virtually everyone loses. You do need to minimise the long term risk for yourself though.

Pam n the boys

this cannot fall through - we have exchanged (3 weeks ago) and are technically the owners now - and the land thing was only bought up after we exchanged...

And the neighbours could only show us the same hap hazard plan as we have ourselves... if they had something more concrete , like a deed of sale that showed it clearly and to scale then we would have to concede.. but they have only what little eveidence as we have.

If it comes down to it, i will lose the 2 foot of land all the way down, thoughthis will be impossible in places due to the cess pits... i am sure we will come to am amicable aggreement...

HI Cleo,

I missed all of this so just catching up now..

This would take all night to put my pennies worth in but firstly it is YOUR solicitors job to go through the title deeds with you as the purchaser and for BOTH of you to satisfy yourself that the title deeds give a fair representation of what you are buying.

Even thought the Original owner did own both houses they are legally 2 seperate house which must be seperated at the land register so it is not OK for someone to put a fence up and say that is the new boundry without the title deeds being changed.

I seemed to have missed if the people next door have bought their house also or are renting it only. As Pammy said if the people own their house then it may be worth checking theirs.

When you say their is a tiny drawing, this drawing may be tiny but there must be one to scale on it somewhere. The only time a drawing would be ignore would be after 25 years when presciption tales effect which is not applicable in your situation.

Your Solicitor will have a copy of the title deeds and if he doesn't have them then the bank will, but you can request a copy from the land register after 14 days have past since you entry date as you are not the legal "Title holder" till 14 days has past. ( Don't ask complicated)

Pam

Hi Pam,

The original dees are 50 years old, and the paper plan that i have is a good 20 years old... they are all paper deeds and not sure if they have been registered... I have signed the transfer, but only about a week ago so i am not sure if they are lodged with the registry yet.

The properties are divided, and registered obviously, but it was a contention about the land... I have been told by my solicitor that it was the vendors land to split up how she chose - she could have given all of it to us - the puzzle was that this did not seem to be clearly shown on any plan that we had, and no to scale drawing existed. I found out yesterday though that the is a section in the contract that we have both signed stating that the fence denotes the boundaries and is legal. There is a letter explaining this to the next door neighbours, which they did not mention to us.

They also own their property, but there one used to be rented and we have the main proerty of the 2, therefore the land that they had would be considered a transfer - i hope that that makes sense! Anyway, i shall know more by the end of the day as we have meeting of sol's (sellers and mine) to sort this out. And i have asked the seller to ask her sol if their are any safe guards than can be put in place other than what is there that clearly delineate the land as ours.

Alex

Hi Alex,

Fingers crossed, Just make sure your solicitor does his job.

It is to complicated really to really comment too much on without reading and seeing everything. The fact the house next door is sold and I presume before you have bought this one then the boundry by law must have been made clear then and whilst the woman may have own both houses and could have devided them up as she pleased she could only do this when selling the first, which I presume is really what has happened. As that house would then have to be transfered onto the Land register.

I think it probaby was made clear to the next door when they bought the house, they may just have not been happy with it. Or they may have done waht a lot of people do is not really double check things themselves. I would honestly suggest when it is sorted let it lie, don't talk to the neighbours about it and it will fade into the background. ( hopefully)

Good luck, What a shame for you. Hopefully it will all be OK soon.

Pam

Alex , I have just come back in and have been catching up with this thread . To be honest with you I really REALLY would NOT sign anything until this is sorted ..it could cost you thousands on top of what you have already paid. If there is a land dispute your solicitor should advise you not to proceed.

I realise you are hoping to move on Friday ..but please think very , VERY carefully about actually doing it. Have to say if it was me I wouldnt go ahead until it was all sorted :(

Melody

But how can this impact on us? My solicitor has advised that this is nothing to do with us - if there is a land dispute, then it is between the purchaser and the vendor - and therefore has nothing to do with us - as has been said if the neighbours take anyone to court it will be the vendor, and then the split will be made...

Trouble is ...as I see it ....you are buying a certain piece of land. IF there is a boundary dispute (no matter WHO the dispute is with) it *could* impact on what you end up with.

You are buying in good faith ..but what if the dispute goes to court and the Judge finds for your neighbours ..where does that leave you?

Obviously it is up to you and your solicitor ..but I was thinking of the long term rammifications

Melody

Have to say Hubby disagrees with me tho ;) He thinks that the solicitor is right

Alex, just what you need! I really don't know much about this, but am thinking of you. :) Hope it sorts its self out soon. Julieann xxx

Alex, this sounds like a sad mess :( :( :(
Even though the vender and the other owners are the ones in court...the decision will affect the land that you live on and own :( The Vendor and the other owners can also still decide to negotiate a settlement for clarity on the property lines to keep things out of court.

If you don't like what the two parties or an eventual judge decide, it seems from what everyone says, you wouldn't be able to do too much about it. You're not involved in the dispute, but you will definitely be affected by the outcome--better or worse. Since you'll already be on the property, it will affect the quality of your living arrangements, equity, and ability to sell the place in the future.
good luck and best wishes on this. I'm rooting for you :)
toodles

I may be guilty of sticking my head in the sand here - but i am hoping that everything can be sorted out amicably for all concerned... we have offered a compromise of the last 6 metres to be moved over by 2 feet (at their expense), but do not think that the upper area is in dispute - or cant resonably be called into question just going on the meager plan...

If the worst comes to the worst we will lose about 2 foot in width of the length of the gardeen - if the judge were to come to the standard conclusion of splitting the contested land down the middle. Though this would be irritating for us, and very sad, it essentially wouldn't affect the equity overlly, nor the quality of life... though it may affect the relationship with our not yet neighbours..

Pooh, it a nasty thing to have to happen

Welcome to the wonderful world of house buying Alex!! ;)
I would think that if the divide was in place when your neighbours exchanged and then completed then they really can't do much as by signing the've accepted the property and boundaries as it stands. If by some stupid flaw in the law they do manage to claim some of your land then you in turn would have a claim against the vendor and possibly your solicitor. I hope it doesn't go that way, pain in the butt if it does.
We had problems while selling our house as there is an unregistered seemingly unowned lane at the back which gives access to the drive, we ended up paying £140 for an Indemnity policy for our buyers to give them rights of use over the lane in case of future dispute, still peed me off but we figured that £140 was better than the cost of the delays and extra solicitors bills argueing over an unregistered lane!!!!
Hope it all goes well :D
Jue
ps, my to tip for moving- be nice to your removal men and makes them lots of tea and coffee and then they'll be nice to your furniture!!!!! ;)

Insist on your solicitor giving you the advice that it doesn't concern you in writing - if necessary you must write to him saying "you have told us that this dispute is between the vendors and the neighbours" - make sure you keep a copy of this letter.

If it comes to legal action at a later date, you will have the evidence to sue your solicitor for some of the costs - but let's hope you can get everything sorted out.

Margot

So glad you got it sorted - have just changed this as I didnt read down far enough and gave you a lot of advice LOL :D
Gina

HOORAY!!!

Have everything sorted now :D

Spoken to the estate agent, the seller and my solicitor and it all seems to have been a bit of a con! Apparently it states in the contract - which i haven't seeen as my mum had power of attoney while we were on holiday - that the fence constitutes the boundary. Thus we dont have to move anything - though we shall still offer the end section as a gesture of good will. It also appears that the new neighbours knew about this as the sellers solicitor informed their solicitor when they tried to query it.

All very weird, but it shouldn't cause any bad feeling - especially now we know and aren't worried about it anymore.. and we will have a copy of that letter by tomorrow! The seller is also checking with her solicitor to see if there is anything else that could possibly be done to get around this - though her solicitor has already said not, and he is in property law anyway.

God, the relief , think i may faint ;) :D :D

Thank you every one for all your help and concern - really made me feel like it MIGHT not be the end of the world...

Yay :)

Glad its all sorted out :)

Melody

Thanks Mel,

Feel a bit of a ninny now though.

Alex

Dont be daft ...why on earth should you feel a ninny? This forum is all about support :) We are better than a cross your heart bra

:D

Cleo,

I to have put my comments on , glad it is sorted.

A word of advice what yoru solicitor said if it was his eact words about it not being your problem was wrong, if it your property it is your problem... they are human like you and I,

I have just done a Law degree and it is amazing how much people forget or over look.

Always cover your butt as nobody else will.

Great you got good news and happy moving..

Best wishes in your new home..

Pam

Glad you got it sorted Alex :). Still wouldn't make any goodwill gestures because it sounds even more as if they were trying it on now.

That was going to be my next question - how do you think that we should deal with this now? I just know tht they are going to pounce on us the minute that we move in to get us to have a look at the fence...

I want to be firm with them, but dont want any bad feelings... So not sure whether we should just deflect questions still - back to the sellers soloicitor (even though we know - or tell them straight???

I agree with Sharon ..I would leave the fence exactly where it is ..even the end bit. If the neighbours approach you about it just say that the solicitor has advised you to keep everything the way it is , but that you hope they will understand it is NOTHING to do with you and hope that you can all be pals

;)

Good plan, I like it a lot ;) :D

Trouble is though Alex- how is this fence? Is it suitable for the dogs at the minute? If not they might try and pounce on you the minute you go to change it?

Stacey x x x

Fence is fine - not ideal, but is maily 6 foot trellis, the dogs can get their heads through, but nothing else and with a spot of quick growing creeper dug in every 6 feet we should be opaque in a matter of months... Also, the fence actually belongs to us so we can do whatever we like withit :D