hi
today we took our 23 month old GSD in to town and she was being very uncontrolable .... we have had many difficulties with her when taking her any where near stragers but thought we had finaly gotten somewhere when we got a new puppy as the agression seemed to stop .

But today i am ashamed to say she lunged at a small child with pure agression :(
we had just gotten her used to a musle a few months ago and she actually enjoys wearing it and wags her tail each time it is presented ... i just thank god that we made the choice of a musel as i dread to think what would have happened today if she had not been wearing it... we imediatly took her back to the car and then left her in the car whilst we went back into town to check the young child was ok fortunatly she was.
But we didnt not get away without some very strong comments from the parents which is totally understandable.
I am dreading the thought of the alternatives to this behaviour (ie. having her put to sleep ) so i am begging for advise from anyone that can give it.

we dont have the confidence to take her amounst stragers after the days events so that is not an option right now .
also she has started to be destructive in the house when we go out ....but we only go for short periods and that is how we have done it ... to start with she was great and would be very well behaved when we were out but this behaviour with the aggression to strangers is not good !

please someone help as quickly and as best you can ... so we can hopfully come up with a plan to stop this ! i dont want to lose my dog as she means the world to me and my partner.... and she has never been agressive with either of us !

HELP !!!!!! ps i am starting work soon as a need and she will be left alone for 4 hours max and the thought of the path of destruction with this is just unearable ..lol

jo x x x x x

edited to say
she has not been spayed yet would this be the problem?
also she is otherwise a very well behaved dog she goes to the toilet on command and also many many other commands are faithfully followed :) it just this agression :(

HI Jo,

Sorry to hear of your problems with your dog, I don't have a lot of advice for you but would like to wish you luck.

I don't think hormones are the primary cause of her behaviour, she does sound like she is possibly guarding you and/or your partner.
Can you give us more info?

1. When did this behaviour start or has it always been present?
2. What do you mean by you got a new puppy? Is there a second dog in the house?
3. What were the circumstances of her lunging at the child?

I do feel for you and hope you solve this problem as a large dog such as your GSD with an aggression problem is not safe

Sorry not to be much help

Theresa

Jo Jo I would firstly crate her when your out ,If there is no trail of damage when you come home you wont feel so upset in yourself and will have more patience to see if you can control the aggression.
I am afraid I agree with strong discipline for an aggressive dog ,best a few hard lessons then death .
Mari

Hi Jo Jo, Im so sorry to say it, but I agree with Mari, Im sorry because you obviously love him and he loves you. If a few hard learnt lessons didnt do the trick, then Im afraid,if he were mine, a one way trip to the vet would be the next stage, so sorry :(

well when i say new puppy i mean we got a rough collie which i have grown up with :) he is 7 months old and they both get on real well :)

Honey my GSD with the agression problem has had a barking at stragers problem since she was a puppy but like i said we have made good progress with her since we got our collie cause she has learnt from him ... ya know he dont bark and he gets rewarded and she quickly learnt being quiet unless asked to speak was rewarding :)

and now all of a sudden this and it is worse than b4 as she is actually lunging ...if she wasnt wearing a musle then she would have bitten i am sure of it !

i think the problem stems from my partners parents visiting the house when were not there and teasing her through the window ect ect i told my partner he had to stop them from doing that or i was going to ban them and so far sooo good but i cant help but think they have caused iripairable damage .... but having said that honey does love his parents too and she never barks at them unless she is unsure who it is at first !
i always encourage my dogs to come see who it is if some one is at the door because i know locking them behind a door while i go and see would frighten them ... and that works a charm ... i just cant understand why she is doing this :(

she gets into trouble is she is missbehaving and she then proceeds to come and say sorry ( very sweet she comes and lays her head on your knee until you tell her she is forgiven ) and she only says sorry on command too ...so she is not seaking attention !
She knew what she did today was wrong you could tell by the way she was acting afterwards... and i think we may have helped the situation by going and putting her in the car and leaving her because when we returned to the car she did not get excited she just lay there as if to say sorry which was a first ! lol usually she trys to jump out when you open the door!
I am wondering if taking her to a specialist would help but i would much rather deal with this on advice first as specialists can be very expensive and we cant afford that just now !

as for the crate thing when we go out ! lolololololol we have done that in the past and she actually opened the door herself and there are 2 bolts on it ... we tried to figgure out how she had gotten out to no availe but she did prove to us then that she could be trusted in the house on her own .... until recently that is ... so we will try the crate thing again only this time i think we will get some padlocks for it then there is no way she can get out ! ;)

ok well thank and if anyone can give me any tips on how to curb this problem b4 it goes beyond repair i would be very gratfull :D

thanks jo x x x x x x x

Sounds like you really need to get a behaviourist in, especially since she has shown this behaviour to a child :(
i personally don't think she's a "vicious" dog, it sounds to me like she's scared! Kids are on eye level with a GSD, and she may have percieved the child as a threat to her. You say you've had her since she was a puppy - what socialisation did you do with her? Did she get used to different people, kids, cars, other dogs etc from a young age? If not then i'd start now if i were you...
Could it be down to the fact that your collie male is maturing? Perhaps she feels that her position in the pack is now threatened since he's now 7 months? Just a thought, as you said this behaviour had been improving up until recently?
Best of luck with her - i know how you feel, i have a GSD bitch with a very similar problem. She was always wary of strangers, but when we fostered a dobie for a while she started to bark and lunge at them in the street. We're working on it and have been for the past eight months, it does get better! Don't give up :)

Also, just thought - maybe you could try her on a Halti instead of her lead and muzzle? You'll then have complete control over her, and she won't be able to lunge at anyone. Might help you be a little more at ease while walking her. GSDs are very empathic and they can tell when something is bugging you, so your apprehension whilst out with her may be contributing to the lunging behaviour?

I would seek the help of a good local behaviorist who can see what is happening, it is very possible the the aggression is caused by the dogs fear and not by guarding, any rough correction may make matters worse. It is difficult to advice without seeing the dog in action as there are any number of things that may be causing the trouble. Don't have her spayed until you have got to the bottom of the problem as if the cause is protective aggression spaying could make matters worse.

Take her to the vet for a health check, unless you have already done so, and if they find nothing wrong health wise ask if they can refer you to someone who will help with her behaviour, most insurance will cover you for this.

All the best with her. Ja:)kie

I agree your GSD is almost certainly not vicious :) but is scared. It would be helpful to have loads more info because then a thread can be unraveled and we can see just why she is doing this. So many questions: is she used to children, what exactly happenend, what happened in the past for her to be muzzled, how was she socialised, does she often meet new people, does she often go into town, etc etc etc.

I agree you need help, but be careful who you get to help you.

I know of a dog club who "conquered" a nervous aggressive GSD (he was a rescue) by use of check chain, bean bags, etc. The dog stopped growling. It accepted people - or so they thought :( But as anyone who understands dogs will tell you, growling is a warning - and what the club effectivley did was to just stop the warning. They did'nt tackle the underlying problem of the dog's fear. The owner and dog were starting to be trusted, went out on social walks with the club....and the dog bit a waitress whilst it was underneath a table.

I believe very strongly that it is so important to work out exactly what is wrong and to take it from there. I would also recommend a vet check just to make sure there is nothing physical that is causing this.

Best wishes
LIndsay

Hi, I wouldn't swap the muzzle for a halti - I got bitten by a GSD a couple of weeks ago wearing a Halti - the lunge was quick so the owner didn't/couldn't control the lunge or bite at all :(. It actually sounds a similar problem to the one they are having - I would definitely get in a behavourist/qualified trainer to come and observe your shepherd at home, interacting with you and your other dog, and also to walk out with you. It doesn't sound an agression problem to me , but a scared one , and like the people I have mentioned it will get worse if it is not sorted out quickly - they now avoid people and are making this dog even worse , they did ring the person I advised them too, but decided it wasn't worth the consultation fee (£20 for first hour and £30 for two hours!!!!!! seems remarkably cheap to me!) and they couldn't afford it! they make me so mad:( But your dog sounds like she is having the same socialisation problems and I would advise that you need to get an expert in or you could end up with your dog seriously hurting somebody and then facing having your dog pts. HTH Julie:)

Julie,
It's sad that they felt they couldn't afford the time + the 50 pounds for properly getting their dog 'right', but they believed they can afford to gamble their savings and property in a possible future lawsuit :( :( :( I hope their dog doesn't bite anyone again, but it's probably overly optimistic to feel this way :(

Hi Muddy, Isnt that a bit hard?????? Perhaphs they REALLY couldnt afford it, some people have to live on a very tight budget. Sorry, I dont agree with your "fear" theory. If this was a rescued dog, then maybe, but its not. This is a guarding breed that has been brought up with lots of love and care, not been abused by a child, has always had a tendancy to be iffy, and then although thank god muzzled, tries to attack a child for no good reason. Can you explain to me where the "scared" comes into it? Before you acuse me of being anti GSDs, Im not, I used to have two.
edited to continue......."she pins the vet against the wall with the barking" Ermmmmmm, well sorry, but your control seems to be nil. Your poor vet must dread you going to the practice.

Jo Jo I am not suggesting beating her up .Far from it , I am saying discipline her very sternly with a scruffing if she lunges , and some sharp words . Perhaps the aboistop coller used for barking may help as a shock to her if she lunges , I dont know worth a try .
I do not think a behaviourist can find out in a two hour session what the problem is and if it takes six weeks how on earth can it be afforded on a tight budget .
I am not one to mince my words so im not going to do it now .
If I had a naughty child a quick slap on the bottom stopped a tantrum . if I had a naughty dog I did the same .
Im not interested in anyone condemning me for doing that as no matter what anyone has to say it works for most people to let the dog know what is accepted and what is not .
I never had a dog put down for turning vicious because I shirked my responsibilities .
I have one motto and that is a quick sharp lesson on the spot is better than a court order to have him/her executed .
I am not let me repeat saying she should be hurt but she should know her place .
I am sure behaviourists could in time sort her but do you have that time is the question you need to ask yourself and of course the money also.
The decision is up to you and I am only saying how I would deal with her not telling you .
Best wishes Mari

Hi Phillipa, I did not think I was being hard on the couple who do not wish to pay out for someone to help them with their shepherd, I have to see them daily with this dog, which they bought at six months old from a young family who could longer afford to keep him (the husband left her with two small kids) They had been wanting a shepherd for sometime, but didn't think that it was worth paying out for a 'good one' their words not mine , they found themselves a 'bargain' at £175.00 the dog is kc reg/ped and when they bought him he was a happy little bunny, but as the lady decided to keep him away from other dogs and people he has become agressive because he doesn't understand that they pose no threat to him, she yanks him away into the road and then pulls his head into her - so much so, that he thinks something terrible is going to happen when he sees people or other dogs,he is really scared now, and he barks and lunges at both out of fearfulness! It is not a fact of they can't afford it, they have told me they are reasonably well off, they meant that they don't WANT to afford it, they see it as a waste of money, I told her that she could bring the dog along (after speaking to the trainer) to class which costs £3.00 for three quarters of an hour, where nobody would judge her and were willing to help with the problem - she said the dog would 'show her up' and didn't want to bother!!! with the fact that this dog bit me, under the circumstances I feel I have been very understanding! more so than some might be I think !- she fully understands the situation, when I spoke to her after he bit me, I was walking past and he lunged - she said that she wanted help and I offered her it, it is her decision that she doesn't want to take it! I have warned her what could happen , but it seems the £20 -£30 is more important than the welfare of (a) some poor innocent person and (b) inevitably the dog! If that is harsh then I am sorry - maybe I didn't explain it well before.
I wouldn't dream of accusing you of being anti GSD - why would I? In my opinion most (not all) problems I have experienced with GSD's , (maybe limited - personal experience of 5 , and others I have seen at training, and this one that bit me) have been due to fearfulness owing to not being socialised properly, which in my opinion doesn't stop at the initial puppy stage but throughout their lives, one of my own dogs (springer), isn't good walking through town, but that is my fault, because I haven't taken him there on lots of different occasions, when I do walk him through now, he is nervous of all the hustle and bustle(although not agressive), and I am now taking steps to rectify this, with regular walks all over the town meeting new people. Our own GSDs where taken everywhere we went and went on buses, trains etc and where used to the hustle and bustle of almost any situation, we never had any problems with aggression from any of them. I wondered with this particular shepherd whether she was used to being walked in various different locations, and the poster had not fully replied the question posed by someone else to this effect, at the time I replied. I personally feel that an unprovoked attack on a child is unexcusable, and my answer that I felt it could be down to fearfulness does not attempt to excuse the dogs behaviour, that is just my opinion. I agree that there seems little control if the vet gets pinned to the wall, (posted after my reply) and again my advise is still the same - they need help from a professional to ascertain the nature of the aggression. I personally see no logical reason as to why the dog would attack for no reason other than fear induced aggression - you don't agree? thats your opinion, I was just giving mine - I still think she needs a proper assessment from a qualified trainer - Julie:)

Hi Julie, I wasnt accusing you :) just that some people REALLY cant afford to pay out £20-£30 a seesion. However as they were offered help at £3 per session that shouldnt be impossible for anyone, and you have done more than enough to try and help. A lot of people think that if you have a def, opinion about GSDs, Rotties etc, its that you dont like them, so I was just making the point that I do, they are a truly wonderful breed. Perhaphs these people are just not the type to own a GSD, maybe something small and quietish like a cavalier may be more suitable for them :)

Hi Phillipa, I know you wasn't - I hadn't put the full details though ;) I'm not that kind - if it had bitten Alfie (who was with me at the time) I would have knocked her out! ;) Julie:)

I'm only joking!!!! It just made me mad that these people that have been offered help can't be bothered to take it and I can see whats ahead of them and that poor dog - and the poster on this thread (jo jo) desperately would like help with their problem which they fully acknowledge and take responsibilty for and so obviously want to remedy the situation with their shepherd. Julie:)

Julie- don't say *only joking* to knocking her out if it had bitten Alfie- I'd knock her out too if it was me and my Son and I really do mean that:)

Stacey x x x

Thinking about it, i agree keep the muzzle - maybe use a basket type muzzle *with* a Halti, to improve control. If the dog is able to "pin the vet to the wall " with its barking, then the owner isn't in control of the dog...
Must stress again - get a behaviourist in. Good luck :)

ok
As far as children are concerned she loves them usualy ... i have a 9 year old sister whom she rolls around on the floor with and lets scratch her tummy, also some friends of ours have 2 year old twin boys and she also loves them.

she has had her vet check and she has them quiet regularly .... she does however scare the vet everytime we take her because she pins him against the wall with her barking !

the reason for the muzzle is that as we had a problem b4 with this behaviour i decided even though she seemed to be ok since getting the collie pupp i wanted to feel one hundred % sure she would not bite anyone or another dog if out and about + for some reason people looked more relaxed if they see a GSD wearing a muzzle ....at least they do around here ..lol

I would realy realy like any helpful advise anyone can give me on possible ways to correct this problem.

thankyou :) jo x x x x

Hi Jo, I'm not to sure how helpful this is but have you considered looking into handing her over to the forces, I found a website which described the sort of dog they are looking for
http://www.warwickshire.police.uk/news_october_dog.htm As I say I don't know much about it, but if you really can't cope with your dog maybe it might be worth looking into as a last resort.

Hope this helps

Clair
xxx

Hi, new to this site but been riveted reading all the different comments people made about health, food , behaviour etc etc.
Re. dog that lunged at child though , i am very to sorry to hear that you have this problem. My husband has a working gsd (which was donated by a member of public to prison service) - he really is not a very nich dog - which we have witnessed first hand - he snapped at my daugher for no reason after a considerable time over which we had thought he had been integrated into our family. luckily he only grazed skin but would have been much much nastier if he had not been being watched. Could have got rid of dog but decided we should have known better not having known history of him and decided that the only time he was safe was when in kennel or on lead - whilst at home. However, he does have a very active life away from home ,i.e. 40 hours of work a week and free exercise away from everybody .
We consider he bites through fear - when visiting vet he has to wear a muzzle and he hinds under the seats at vets - certainly doesn't pin vet up against wall. Husband has to handle him very carefully whilst out or at work - he has to be aware of what dog is up to at all times or he will bite whoever .

Not an expert but suggest that should start again with socialisation and build up gradually - however there is absolutely no way I would trust him with children - not worth the risk as we found out ourselves.

If you do hand over to police/prison service they will test for temperment first - will not take a dog who submits they want dogs that will hold fast and bark at someone coming at them - you can be very well assured that they will be looked after - all vets bills paid and can be taken to vet without worry of cost for any ailment - top quality food , lots of exercise and for the most part a handler that loves and depends on him and most of all is aware of what the dog is capable of !

Jo, it realy is not possible to give advice on such a serious problem with out being able to see the dog and his surroundings, we may well advice something that could make the trouble worse. I would strongly advice you to see a recomemded behaviourist before you try any sort of corrective methods. It may only take one session if you listen carefully and follow the instructions to the letter. Do give it a try. Ja:)kie

jo--as for the destruction, when hes put into a cage-padlock it, reinforce the sides with cable ties too, i also feel that this dog has this problem in its genetic makeup, did you meet the parents, older brothers sisters??? as for it pinning the vet against the wall, i agree with phillipa, doesnt sound too frightened, so id think fear is ruled out, so at the minute id NEVER EVER leave the house without a muzzle , you owe the public that much, imagine what could of happened [im sure you have loads of times], im really sorry for you but i find when its inbred theres not a lot you can do to change it -exept make sure accidents arent allowed to happen, perhaps the forces might be a good option for him, :(

Agree about the muzzle Linda. No matter what the cause is, better safe than some unfortunate child being sorry.

Also agree with Jackie though I'd go to someone very experienced with GSDs or an experienced professional trainer rather than a behaviourist. This problem sounds too serious for long distance advice.

Dizzy as I was reading this I was saying to myself the exact same as you've put. What were the parents etc like? JoJo what do you do when she goes off like that? I think a good whack may be needed- she needs to know that she's out of order big time when she goes off like that! And NEVER take that muzzle off in public- like you said what would have happened if she wasn't wearing a muzzle when she lunged at the child? She hasn't lunged thinking the child was a threat because it's on her eye level- if mine was to bite or try- I think kids would be last on the list since she knows they're smaller/younger than us therefore she sees them as being more vulnerable and the guarding instinct makes her want to protect them. They are also good mothers and so bitches tend to mother small children. There's always an exception obviously- I just wanted to point out that this is not because they're a guarding breed. I'd try the blackbanks bloke that Taffy mentioned and see what he says or an experienced GSD person- then the forces and if they don't want her- which they may not since they don't take over aggresive GSD's either- then I'm afraid pts seems like the only option.

Stacey x x x

I would be doing the biting if it was one of mine . Mari

My sisters neighbour was in exactly the same situation. They took on an adult rescue GSD bitch. She was great indoors but outdoors was entirely different. The first trainer they tried gave them their money back and advised he had never met a dog so deeply disturbed and in short told them the dog was mental and beyond help. The dog actually grabbed a young child by the face over the garden fence, fortunately no damage was done and the parents were very very understanding. One day I visited my sister dreading going to sit in her garden, because usually this would mean the GSD lunging/snarling/barking over the fence. I was gobsmacked to see the GSD relaxing quietly,more importantly looking alot more happier. I asked what on earth had happened. The answer was an ex police doghandler operating Blackbanks Kennels in Durham, it took him 11 days to turn this dog around, he incorporates training techniques for both dog and owner. I wouldn't hesitate to entrust my dog to him if there was ever a problem with Taiko (or my) behaviour.I'm sure if you do a search on blackbanks kennels the web address would come up and the man (I think he's called John) would be able to give you some advice.He guarantees results and will retrain should the dog revert back to type at no extra cost. I can't stress what a difference he made to this dog, she really is so much happier now.
Julie :)
Blackbanks kennels
john woodward-tel 01325 355146 email enquiry@canine-net.i12.com

Heard nothing from JO JO today, do you think shes out looking for a trainer? Ja:)kie

is it john rogerson you mean------hes the one i suggested banger went to see, he thought it made a difference

k we went out today for a good few hours (i think it was 4) and we left her in the crate which was then padlocked. when we returned we saw that she had chewed up the hard plastic tray that was on the bottom.... but when i did go in to her hse did look very sorry ...ya know she knew what was coming ! lol
but instead of making a big deal out of it i just let her out and ignored her !
That in its self worked wonders.... just ignoring her she eventualy left me alone and laid down and proceeded to go to sleep :)

my partners parents came tonight and they did not ring first :( i was mad !!!!!!
my partner went out to them and when i went to go too i left her in the house so she could see who it was but she went mad barking !!! now she loves my partners parents !
so as soon as she started the barking i made a very scary entrance to her and shouted very loud for her to stop and lye down ... she did not do it first time but the second time was a success :)

when ever we do take her out she has always got her muzzle and harness on !
and when we take her to the vets she only every pins this one vet against the wall she is ok with the others so i am wondering if it is her sensing his fear and playing on it ????

as for thinking of giving her to the forces its funny you should say that ...as only tongiht i was sugesting it to my partner! but i think he will take a lot of convincing and besides i think i want to try and resolve this problem first :)

I have trained her so well on so many other issues that i am not willing to give up on such a well behaved dog (obviously besides this problem).

I will contact the man that you tell me about at this kennels! :)

please dont say that i have no control as i do have to point out that if i had been the one holding her lead it would not have happened ! i have more control over her than my partner and this is one reason why he wont ever be left in charge of her again when we are in public :D men !!!!!!! lol

i am going to spend the day tommorow doing some basic training with her outside ... ia m going to tie her up and do the age old training of getting her to stop barking when i leave first of all. and then i will take it one step further and walk her (with muzzle and harness on) up to meet my partner from work. where i will sit at the entrance and she will have to watch many people come and go and i will use this oportunity to correct her if she luges or barks (i dont care what anyone says if i have to smack her in the process)

then i am going to reasses the situation and do this over and over until i see some improvement and if not then i will have to seriously think about the other 2 choices !

one thing i did remember today about the awfull events of yesterday !... when we arrived in town the fair was on and if i remember rightly last time we took her when the fair was on we walked passed a chained up shepherd (who belong to the fair) and he barked and growled at her and it scared her very much .... i am just wondering if that what she thought was going to happen again and she just freaked at this thought as when she lunged at this child the child was walking towards her and it was just about the first person she saw as we got into town ! hummmmm now i think about it it actualy seems that was the cause ... what do you think ????

I do appreciate your replies each one is helpful and the more info i get the better :)
thanks jo x x x x x x can we post picture on here because i would like to post a picture of Honey for you to see ?

good on you---:D. if you can win on determination , then you should do ok, ---god knows what the poor folk will be thinking coming out of work though,!!! they might all start putting in for overtime so they no longer have to face your dog

lol... if that realy did happen then im sure my partners boss would give my partner a pay rise but only on the condition that i walked honey up to work every night ;) ..hehehehe

well i intend to persivear and with determination as honey almost didnt make it past 1 day old as she is white you see .... and the lady who her mum belongs to was advise to cule both honey and her 3 other white sisters!!!! :( also when we went to see honey for the first time she was obviously being bullied by the rest of the litter so we just had to give her the best chance and i will continue to do so ....uless i am proved beyond a shaddow of a doubt that she is a lost cause ...that is why also i am avoiding professional help as some professionals would advise us to have her pts without even trying ! (i know it happens because my partners aunt has had 2 dogs pts under those circumstances)

anyway again thanx x x x x x
jo x x x x x x x

I know this isn't really any help now but I just thought I'd tell you anyway- something you can keep in mind for any dogs you may have/get in the future:) My morning routeine is to take kids to schol etc- come home tidy up etc- then we go out for a walk on the field- the route we take brings us out across from the school so we usually go over and talk to my Son (5yr old) and all his friends- they all make a huge fuss out of Kassie, stroking her etc and she is now somewhat quite a celeb through the village:)

I'm chuffed you are getting this sorted:) And even better that you're giving the bloke a ring that the rest have suggested- if they've recommended him then he will be good:D :D

Stacey x x x

I think you will get it to stop with perseverence Jo Jo , but I have to add a caution once she has been aggresive to a child you must never ever leave her alone with one even your own no matter how nice she gets .
Most dog attacks are on family children so dont take a chance .She has proved suspect so if she bites you will be in big trouble .
The cardinal rule in dog ownership is never let a child alone with a dog any dog . You never can tell what may happen .
Childrens faces are level with a medium to large dog so dont risk them .
So be very vigilant and you may get to keep her .
Best of luck with her and please let us know how she goes
Mari

Hi Jo Jo, I am pleased that you are getting it sorted out - but notice you seem reluctant to seek professional advice as you fear that the advice will be to pts, In my opinion I think this is unlikely, unless this is absolutely necessary, in which case then it is for the best. I agree with mari, don't trust her alone for a second with anyones kids, your own family included. I do hope you work it all out. let us know how she progresses. I am probably going to get shot for this, but .... you have just mentioned she is white, back when we had all five shepherds together, there was a lot of dodgey temperaments in white shepherds at the time, can we ask what lines she is from???? Julie:)

Please let us know if you do contact John Woodward and what the outcome is. I wouldn't post his details on here if I didn't have 100% faith in his techniques.
Julie :)

Contact a member of the APBC - you'll be hard pressed to find one that advises you to have her pts!!! http://www.apbc.org.uk/
All of us on this board can speculate as to why she behaves the way she does, but if you really want to resolve this problem you need a qualified professional to help you. Good luck :)

Hi Jo, can't offer much help, most have said it already, I just wanted to say hello and paws crossed for you and your hound. Julieann xxx

JUst a few more thoughts - just re-read the original post, and I would like tofind out why the GSD is now starting to destroy the house at 23 months, but was OK before? MOstly it happens differently, as a dog starts to mature the house destruction lessens. This may or may not have a link to the aggression but it definitely needs looking at :) Very possibly the dog is either too attached to owners, or stressed for some reason.

I had an interesting time a few months ago, when a poster on here was asking for help with her young dog who was biting her children, but had not done it before. Understandably she was worried. The exactl same case was being discussed on another list from the trainer's viewpoint (closed list so it was OK to do this). The trainer kept trying to get the owner to have a vet check the dog over. Lots of different advice was given on here and on several other websites that give advice. After the vet check it turned out the dog had hip dysplasia and once on medication reverted back to a pleasant companion, so far as i KNOW there have been no more problems :)

I have to say that i would now always recommend a thorough vet check (including bloods, etc) with all cases of aggressive problem behaviour in particular. A reputable behaviourist will not take on a case unless physical problmes have been totally ruled out so they can concentrate on the fact that yes, it really is a behaviour problem.

I don't think we have the answers we need to help effectively :( We don't know how the GSD was socialised or if she was. If she attended pup class. She is apparently OK with kids but thats kids she knows , what about kids generally.....etc etc etc

My guess is still that, IMHO, she is upset by people.She will have an active defence reflex so she will appear worse the more upset she is, as it is GSD nature to scare away what is upsetting to them. She eventually needs to learn that people are OK, and mean good things, and I feel you will need help to do this.

If she is trained to be well behaved, but still fears people, she will be a time bomb. sHe may never explode, for fear of punishment, OR she may if, one day, she is accidentally pushed.

I don't know of the trainer mentioned, but if you do need another, I agree wtih Dizzy that John Rogerson is excellent and cannot be too highly recommended. He is in your area. He is very used to aggressive dogs and if your bitch can be helped he will help her and you :)

Anyway i wish you luck,

Best wishes

Lindsay

Good news about my baby :D

She seems to be fine now infact better than ever b4 :D
I have had her out and about for the last few days and she has been met by total strangers children ...cars noices ect ect and she aint even barked ...at first she did grumble on the first outing but she soon stopped once i made it clear it was not aceptable .

I think her problem was a mixture of the fair being on in town (scared her) and the fact that my partner was walking her ...and he has since admitted that right b4 she went for the child (this was going on behind me) he pulled at her several times as soon as she got near anyone and looked to be interested (not agressive)
so in future I am going to be the one that walks her in public until i can get my partner to take some holidays at work and then we will try getting him to handle her properly :) all this time and it hasnt even been my poor doggies fault ...she had induced fear from my partner .... stupid man !!!! :O

I have just had honey in the bath and we had a bit of a bonding session as she has been all but ignored the past few days when at home for fear of over fussing.... so now she is out of the bath drying off and she looks very happy at last :D

The more i have thought about it every thing adds up even down to her seing the vet as my partner had hold of her lead then too ..... just plan owner error my fault for not spotting it sooner

thankyou sooo much all for your suppoert and sugestions if not for you people i would probably taken a whole while longer figguring this out :D

ohh and his morning i had her to a specialist where i live he is a GSD specialist and i have checked him out with kennel club so he is cosha ...and he said much the same as me. he did several tests with other dogs ect ect and she was fine ...in fact i had to laugh cause she was playing with these other dogs like they were best buds .... the rolling about in the mud was the reason for her needing that bath ...being white and all ;)

jo x x x x x x x x x x

That's wonderful!!!!!! i'm so glad thinks are looking up :)

Oh that does sound like good news - as you say, even a few apparently insignificant events or changes can add up to upset a dog, you mentioned the dog that upset her, your partner handling her in a quite different way, etc......I do so hope all will be well, she does sound like a lovely dog :)

Lindsay