I know we have discussed this before but would like remining of things. I was having a conversation with someone who is very anti pedigree cats and dogs. I don't feel  I argued the case very well. Others thoughts and views would really help as I know my discussion hasn't ended. It wasn't a win or lose discussion more ,being able to listen to each other . If the argument for cats is different please add that too. I know we are a dog forum and hope admin is ok with that .

Points raised not by me I add

non pedigrees are healthier
we have far to many animals in rescue to be breeding

we don't need pedigrees there are plenty to go round

Pedigrees are man made and we continually alter for our pleasure ( I think there is some truth in that but a slightly different discussion )

Having spent the best part of my life living with, showing breeding and judging PUREBRED dogs, I just cannot get into messing around with long-established breeds, developed by responsible breeders to do a specific 'job'

And I have to say if the background is known, ALL dogs have a pedigree but not all pedigreed dogs are purebred!

We didn't breed for profit but thought ourselves lucky if we had a couple of nice puppies from the occasional litters we had, to take us into the next generation and found permanent loving homes for those 'extra' puppies we had.  On the other hand, those who mix breed normally don't care much about what they produce other than income.  So their outlay is generally minimal.

And that's it from me.  Hey ho.......................

> non pedigrees are healthier

Absolutely no guarantee of that, in fact I'd say they are more likely to be unhealthier as they can have the hereditary complaints of both/all founder breeds and are highly unlikely to be tested. Responsibly bred pedigree dogs should have every possible test done and only the healthy ones be bred from.

'Hybrid vigour' is often mistakenly quoted, but I would say that refers to different species, not different breeds.

Coefficient of inbreeding may be lower in cross breeds, or it may not, as the parents are not likely to be noted down anywhere, and local stud are likely to be used, they could very well be more inbred than your average pedigree dog.

Nature versus nurture. Pedigree dogs can be expected to display certain traits, even if not specifically bred for them. Labradors love to retrieve and carry things around, collies herd people/dogs/whatever, sighthounds chase, scenthounds follow smells, terriers are fiesty. A random mix may not be suitable for the home it ends up in, no matter how well it is brought up. For example I wouldn't want to live with a husky or a terrier whereas others may not want to live with a sighthound that sleeps all day but takes off in the park.

Obviously I'm not against responsible outcrossing for specific needs, as I own a 'new' breed. Silken windhounds where created to fill a gap in the dog world and are very responsibly bred though, with every one having to be parental dna verified before breeding and almost all breeders do every single health test possible even if no individual in the breed has shown signs of a lot of things we test for.

I also own a lurcher and although I adore her she is a very good example that crossing different breeds doesn't mean you get the best of each parent breed

> Absolutely no guarantee of that, in fact I'd say they are more likely to be unhealthier as they can have the hereditary complaints of both/all founder breeds and are highly unlikely to be tested. Responsibly bred pedigree dogs should have every possible test done and only the healthy ones be bred from.

Yessssss!

Thank you folks all helpful to my discussion
Theory what would happen if we stopped breeding purebred?

cats.. I have a great love of oriental cats . they are not like other cats.  its not looks, its personality. I have never met a mongrel cat or other breed of cat with the personality of the orientals. I'd certainly have considered a half blood one when used to have cats as all the half bred ones I have met were a delight too.    I've had a moggy cat too and she was very special but the orientals to me are a guarenteed winner where as mogs are more variable.  if I was ever in position to want another cat it could only be an oriental.

to me thats the huge thing with purpose bred animals, they are more reliable in terms of temperament, its not about looks for me although I admit I only like dogs and cats that are bred to not be deformed and can live a normal life.  it means that I could select for this point in my life, when I was younger weimaraners were my thing, I loved the constant exercise, the training, the sharpness.I knew that was what I was getting when selected breed.  now I am middle aged and arthritic and my lazy little whippet who needs just short bursts of exercise is a better fit and was carefully chosen for that reason.    I have only owned 3 dogs in my life, if I get wrong one then thats 10-15 years of my life with wrong dog and I cannot afford that,    I always looked at the rescue places when needed a new pup but never saw anything that would work, if I had wanted an adult status dog, a dog with health issues or a dog with severe behavioural problems then yes they were there but not what I needed

Now on 4th GSD also had Rott - knew pretty well what we were getting.  xbreeds, 1st was lab /cocker very easy going and placid, bit 'ploddy', 2nd was pointer/whippet easy going bit sometimes bit of a wimp, 3rd was stafford / hound of somesort and OK but could be absolute little s*** at times and bit of a thug. Generally all 3 xbreeds - having an idea of what 'input breeds' were like you could see where stuff came from but totally unpredictably which bits you got!

Cats - 1st two were mother & son, your avarage pet tabby cat. 3rd was all black ½ Siamese !!! ruled the dogs,- he used to stop GSD & Rott coming in by sitting on step and biting their foot when they tried but would also curl up by/on them in a bed, was also known to beat up local dogs when he could ambush them and then run, also swore the whole time in a crate for vet visits and needed gauntlets to get him out but would happily walk in on harness and lead! total character, what I would want if I ever had another cat.

I so agree weired with all that you say. Cats I've had moggies one inarticulate I miss so much .his character was so much fun . Others in the road called him the boss
But I do love my oriental types.i know their behaviour traits and love it and visually I find them so beautiful We have had 4 Burmese in the family 2 bung mine and now have 2 tonkinese if u add to the cat family it will be a siamese. These are my favourite breeds to other with there various quirks.
Dogs I like knowing about the breed I have chosen and what to expect.  Health wise I am really not so sure that crossed of either species are really healthier

>non pedigrees are healthier

Recent studies have shown that crossbreeds and mongrels are just as likely (more so in some cases, less so in others) to be unhealthy as a purebred dog.

>we have far to many animals in rescue to be breeding

The vast majority of dogs in rescue are non-pedigrees, usually random pet-bred specimens.

>we don't need pedigrees there are plenty to go round

Unless you're a gambler who's happy to take a chance on the characteristics of your pet, a pedigree dog of a known breed will have established breed traits that are known and so the breed will (should!) have been chosen because those traits suit your lifestyle.

> Theory what would happen if we stopped breeding purebred?

The world would be poorer, missing the various breeds we love and admire.   For me, there's nothing better than living with an animal that gives me a thrill every time I look at him (well most of the time!!).

Thank you Jean genie . It's really hard when talking to rescues to explain why purebred animals are not taking homes of mongrels  or moggies and just because we often know what health conditions are likely in a particular breed doesn't mean it won't appear in non purebred .at least testing and breeding to improve can be done by responsible breeder
Imo more effort to educate about neutering and not having the odd litter for whatever reason would help to reduce animals in rescue not stopping breeding purebreds

I agree it would be very sad not to have these beautiful animals in our lives.
Not sure its so much of a thrill when a certain dog has just rolled in fox poo !!!

Personally I want to see the mother and know the health tests have been done, very few mixed are health tested, I mean if you don't know what breeds how can you test.
I want to know what traits are likely to show.
We all know what a Labrador looks like, traits it should have. If I wanted a Lab I don't want anything which is aloof, difficult to train and is reactive.

If I wanted a Border Collie then anything less than a brilliant mind, trainable and if used for herding, lack of herding ability would render it useless.

If you want a breed which has any guarding ability you don't want a mix up that's scared of its own shadow and bolts at the sight of another human.

Thank you so
I think we are of.the same.mind even though can't say I started my dog life knowing this

Non pedigrees are not healthier, it averages out and can head the other way depending on the cross.  If they aren't carefully bred it's no different than a BYB pedigree.

As for altering to our pleasure - no different!  Unless it's a genuine accident, they're all being bred to our whims and choices.

altering to our pleasure... I do have some issues with that.  I believe breeding dogs to be deformed to be 'cute' should be banned. no animal should be bred to suffer and cats fall foul of this too, the fashion for naked, short legged or folded ear cats is cruel.    likewise I think the breeding of dogs unsuitable for modern families should be regulated, too many huge aggressive natured dogs are falling into wrong hands to their detriment and the detriment of the people who come into contact with such unsuitable dogs.

breeding dogs and cats to be healthy, reasonably easy to train pets that fit nicely into homes that I fully approve of.  its to their benefit and to peoples benefit that they get on well

Where cats are concerned I belive the gccf won't register some of these breeds. The Scottish fold for example and although the sphinx cat which has existed since an accidental breeding produced a hairless kitten in the 60s never mind it being bred back to its mother ! is now being manipulated to produce short legged ones and ones that they call either bambino or xl bully cats. Imo it's disgusting. Already health problems are being seen never mind that hcm is a big issue in the original breed anyway .
This when I lose my argument about pedigrees v non pedigrees

its about money though isn't it?  saw some women bragging about her bambino/xl cats claiming they were happy, nope, have to be bathed every week, feel the cold desperately and a lifespan estimated at about 6- which frankly after their miserable life its probably a blessing they die so young,   but the kittens are selling for about £4000 each so nice little earner...   it should be ILLEGAL to breed from deformed animals, not just unregisterable.   I would make it a legal requirement every last one is neutered.

non pedigrees are healthier
As has been mentioned, there have now been several times that research was carried out and proved there was no difference. Before the most current one there was the one the RSPCA paid for, presumably in order to prove pedigree dogs were unhealthier, which showed there was no difference.

we have far to many animals in rescue to be breeding
If I wanted a dog, or cat, I want to know that I get the temperament I'm looking for as well as a healthy animal that has every chance of living a long, happy life. I don't want an animal that may well have behaviour problems and hidden illnesses that will only show up in a year or two. I'd be happy to give a home to a rescue, and have done many times, but then it will be understood that it may not work out.
For novices and/or families with young children it's especially important to know what you're letting into your lives.

we don't need pedigrees there are plenty to go round
But we do. There's reasons given above but there are a lot more: How would we get police dogs, guide dogs, sheepdogs for instance? Yes on occasion a crossbreed or mongrel may suit the purpose but if it really was as easy as taking any randomly bred dog and train it for these jobs, why don't we see mongrels working in them? How would we know that the mongrel is going to herd the sheep rather than killing them, or would help the police catch criminals rather than make friends with them? Breeds are born with natural abilities as they have been deliberately bred for, often for hundreds of years. That's why a Golden Retriever will carry things around, why a Border Collie will try to herd and a German Shepherd will guard, regarless of whether they have had any training for it or not.

Pedigrees are man made and we continually alter for our pleasure
That's true but it's also true of for instance cows, pigs, sheep and chickens. With those they are altered because they are wanted as food. Be bigger, grow faster etc. Is it more acceptable to create an animal that will be eaten than one that will be a pet or a working animal? What about horse breeds? Rabbits? There are so many pedigree animals in the world, far from just dogs and cats. Even fancy mice are extremely different in body shape and size and colour (and on occasion coat) to wild mice.

Cats: the same arguments applies with the exception of working roles. You get a pedigree cat and you will have a very good idea of what its temperament will be like. With moggies you can have some idea based on the colour as temperament is very much colour related, but you can't be sure. I know I couldn't live with a Siamese, for example. I like calm cats.
Back in February I lost my most special cat, a Persian who was 17.5 years old. He was very much a lap cat and he even responded to commands, like down, go to your bed etc. This summer I got a new kitten, as did two of my children with my grandchildren. We all got pedigree cats. I acquired a Maine Coon, a dog-like breed who isn't as calm as a Persian but who still likes to sit on my lap. My daughter who has 4 children got a Ragdoll, a breed known to be laid back. My son who has one child got a British Shorthair, also a breed known to be fairly calm. I adore my Maine Coon and his best friend is one of my Papillons -they play together just like dogs. But he isn't as easy to handle as my Persian was. He's huge and strong and if he doesn't want to do something he will complain. My grandchildren can say hello to him, touch him, but they cannot pick him up as he doesn't like it and will scratch. Their Ragdoll however they carry around a lot and he happily accepts it. He plays with them, sleeps with them, and you never see his claws. Just like you'd expect from this breed. The British I haven't met yet.

Finally, pedigree cats are bred to be indoor cats, or the great majority are. They are happy to live as indoor pets. My rescued moggy is forever trying to get out. If you live where it isn't safe to let cats roam (and I dare say most places are not) then a pedigree cat is a better choice.

I agree about any animal being bred to extremes. Technically it would be possible to breed a cat that was ultra type, Munchkin, Sphynx, Manx, Scottish Fold or American Curl all in one. In other words a cat with an extremely flat face, short legs, hairless, tailless and with ears either folded down or bent back! It horrifies me that these traits are already being combined. Same with dogs. Notably though, in both cases, it is the irresponsible person breeding just to make money that breeds these monstrosities. Not the caring breeder whose animals will be shown. That's what the general public need to realise, it is NOT the responsible show breeders that produce the animals that suffer the most from their exagerrations. The dogs and cats that suffer the most from deliberate extreme breeding will never be seen at shows.

I was hoping that you would comment goldmali given your experience in both cats and dogs.
Your comment about siamese made me smile. I have two tonkinese very similar to siamese and.burmese and they suit what I wanted exactly.  They are what I expected and wanted  having had Burmese.  Vocal velcro cats who love a lap.
I am involved with a cat carrots and have just helped bath a sphinx . She is lovely but it upsets me.that she has to go through the stress of.this at regular intervals and stress it is or she becomes so oily and smelly and the oil builds up her toes making walking hard and her ears risk having problems.  It seems wrong

Charity not carrots.  Lol

> Charity not carrots.  Lol

You sure you didn't mean sausages ....

Could well of done !!