My 7.5kg bitch had 4 puppies 19 days ago.  Birth was normal and puppies arrived healthy and of a good weight.  Everything was fine except the following day she had chronic diarreah, 2 days later she was still poorly and was now panting excessively and digging and just looked exhausted.  I ended up taking her and the 4 puppies to the vet.  Bloods and electrolytes all came back normal and I was sent home with Pro-kolin and new food (along with a lecture about me being irresponsible for raw feeding a commercial frozen cube to a pregnant/lactating bitch…… I then did some research and concluded from some discussion on this forum that she most likely needed calcium supplements.

Basically the past 2 weeks have been hell!  Trying to get her to eat, feed the puppies, manage the panting/digging on and off and the upset stomachs!!  I really struggled to know what to focus on. 

As of today the stools are firm, she is feeding the puppies ok and eating a reasonable concoction of food but still exhibiting the behaviours despite me giving the recommended dose of calcium.  Anyone experienced this?

When you say 'despite me giving the recommended dose of calcium'....

1) What is her pre-pregnancy weight?

2) What calcium supplement are you giving and how much?

It is very likely you are still not giving enough calcium...

Thank you for taking the time to reply.  She was 7.5kgs pre pregnancy and she now weighs 8.7kgs.  She ate well during pregnancy.  I have been giving her a powdered product from “now” brand purchased on Amazon, the label says 600mg of calcium (from calcium carbonate) per 1/2 teaspoon.  I have been giving 1/2 teaspoon with each of her 3 feeds, which is already greater than the 1500 I calculated she required.

I was assuming the 600mg referred to the elemental calcium but maybe I’ve misread that? Perhaps I should switch to a different product.

I  have read everything you have posted regarding calcium and it was a game changer for me, - although the panting and digging hiding in bushes still happens it’s nowhere near as bad as it was initially! So thank you very very much!

> I ended up taking her and the 4 puppies to the vet.  Bloods and electrolytes all came back normal

That's all good of course BUT did your vet X-RAY her to make sure she was empty?    I know about how much people here are committed to giving calcium for this, but for me, a bitch who is restless and digging suggests she may have retained birthing material, or even a puppy.  I'd want this done.

I really fail to understand why you were lectured about raw feeding a commercial frozen cube...... I'd love to know more about that!

For what it's worth, none of mine had, or needed extra calcium when in whelp, or rearing their litters.

Lecture from vet. Mamabas Just the usual i would suspect .its risky apparently for any dog let alone one who is pregnant or lactating .many vets worry about bacteria and the like among other things .
I know many who raw feed all the way through pregnancy quite safely and happily but vets are often not supportive mainly through lack of knowledge I suspect

>She was 7.5kgs pre pregnancy

She needs 1502mg of ELEMENTAL calcium per day.

>I have been giving her a powdered product from “now” brand purchased on Amazon, the label says 600mg of calcium (from calcium carbonate) per 1/2 teaspoon. 

I can't find a NOW brand on Amazon that is calcium carbonate, but assuming that's what you've got...  If you are feeding calcium carbonate, that translates to 3755mg of calcium carbonate per day to provide the above amount of elemental calcium. Because calcium carbonate is 40% elemental calcium.

>I have been giving 1/2 teaspoon with each of her 3 feeds, which is already greater than the 1500 I calculated she required.

You are only giving her about half the amount of calcium she should be having. She needs 3755mg of calcium carbonate per day, divided over her meals. And that's just a starting point. You can go up from there.

You can use this form if you want to calculate the right amount: https://form.jotform.com/91013267951152?fbclid=IwAR3pBDkGmmsivVfH872dlIjP5d2C6nYn49ZslT9xoMHbNB_3uxhK8fFGSgk

That's all good of course BUT did your vet X-RAY her to make sure she was empty?    I know about how much people here are committed to giving calcium for this, but for me, a bitch who is restless and digging suggests she may have retained birthing material, or even a puppy.

I'd agree if it wasn't for the fact that the pups are 20 days old. After that amount of time the bitch would have been ill/had a nasty smelly discharge if she had anything retained. Or even be dead.

That was my concern when I scooted off to the vet, I don’t believe they did an x-ray but they were confident she was empty.  I have been taking her temperature and checking for unusual discharge/smell and she’s clinically ok, eating, drinking etc.  We also had an ultrasound when she was pregnant and were only expecting 4 puppies and all placentas were delivered, it’s been 3 weeks since she whelped so I’m pretty sure she’s all clear internally.  Thanks for taking the time to reply, much appreciated.

> I'd agree if it wasn't for the fact that the pups are 20 days old.

Oh, I'd missed that from OP. 

This is the product i am using[url=] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Now-Foods-Calcium-Carbonate-Powder/dp/B000RMH4GE/ref=sxts_rp_s1_0?_encoding=UTF8&cv_ct_cx=Now+Foods&dchild=1&keywords=Now+Foods&pd_rd_i=B000RMH4GE&pd_rd_r=fc25a3b6-3458-4014-86d0-7f82afa14949&pd_rd_w=DgaHy&pd_rd_wg=ziCf9&pf_rd_p=fbcbf87c-0fa8-447a-95cf-68c43cb75eaa&pf_rd_r=QSHFZSCSNX8CW4A9DV52&psc=1&qid=1629099006&sr=1-1-9d35b2fb-722c-404c-ae6e-16ef63349c57%5b/url%5d

doesn’t mention elemental calcium just calcium, looking at the other variations (calcium citrate etc) from the same brand the figures add up to demonstrate this is giving 600mg of pure calcium per serving.

Thanks for the link to the form, as the dose is a recommended starting point so I will increase the dose to 4 times a day.

If there is still episodes then I will look for a different supplement that is clearer in its make up as I don’t want to increase the dose to over double if I’m not sure.

I did wonder how the body metabolises the calcium and thought maybe it needed another compound (vit D, magnesium) to work but I don’t think that’s the case.

If I can’t control the episodes then would you agree it’s best to accelerate the weaning to stop mum having to produce milk, or should I persevere for as long as possible.  (3am digging holes in the garden isn’t much fun for anyone)……

Thanks for your time

Exactly this!!  I was so upset when I left the vet, practicality accused me of giving me the puppies a death sentence.  Any raw residue of the mother can be transferred to the whelping box and can harbour bacteria, salmonella, listeria.  Quote - “The puppies would not be able to fight such an infection and would not survive, you will be leaving here today with prescription kibble and you WILL stop feeding her raw”

I’ve owned dogs for over 25 years and the healthiest I’ve had are raw fed.

I’m looking for a new vet………..

>This is the product i am using

That is just calcium carbonate: "340 g of Calcium Carbonate, Pure Powder". That's very clear about its make-up. So what I said above re dosages applies. Increase what you are giving her.

With a lactating bitch, you can't really give too much calcium. I know of breeders giving 2-3x the recommended amount on that form, to get their dog's behaviour to be normal. If you are supplementing long-term (like months) then you do need to think about giving a balanced supplement, but if you are just using this for a few weeks until pups are weaned then it's less of a concern. The best product I know of is only available in the US - it's Doc Roys Healthy Bones, from Revival Animal.

> would you agree it’s best to accelerate the weaning to stop mum having to produce milk, or should I persevere for as long as possible.

No, not at all - that would increase stress, predispose her to mastitis because her body isn't ready to wean yet, make it difficult to dry her up and cause problems for the pups - who are always best on mother's milk and not fake supplements based on vegetable oils, additives and preservatives and whey etc. A bitch's milk actually changes as her pup's grow. It is tailor-made for them and there is nothing else like it. Aim to wean around 3 weeks, possibly a little bit earlier.

No problems with raw feeding, I raw feed all mine. Just ignore your vet. Vets generally know nothing about breeding anyway.