Wouldn't it be good if a new law was passed that no breeder whatsoever here in the U.K. can have more than 2 litters in any given year.

2 litters would be the absolute maximum for every breeder (including those with a licence) or would this not work for some reason ....?

E.T.A.
One litter per female etc etc as in Champdogs rules would also apply to everyone, just to be clear.

Prices would rocket beyond belief as there would be a crazy demand.

wouldn't work, dogs would instantly be registered in the name of everyone in the breeders family. would make it impossible to unpick who was really responsible for a litter

> <br />2 litters would be the absolute maximum for every breeder (including those with a licence) or would this not work for some reason ....?

I get where you are coming from but this was a question asked, at a seminar I went to, when accredited breeder scheme set up...the reply was people like guide dogs for the blind are a breeder & how would you limit their breeding programme, cant have one rule for one and a different for another....This is something many hadn't thought about....

My worry would be about accidental litters, and the fact that bitches don’t have calendars.

I supppse it’s possible for a bitch to be expected to whelp right at the end of one particular year, but actually deliver a few data early. Hardly seems fair to be punished because of biology not cooperating!

It’s a well known fact that, unfortunately, there are a few big commercial breeders in the UK supplying tens of thousands of puppies (they are licensed) that makes up a good % of the total estimated born each year. Demand already exceeds supply and this would only open the door to more criminal activity in my view, such as more illegal imports.

Then you have to consider those with vulnerable breeds, I think it would be a death sentence for some as invariably the number of litters being born would decline and breeders would not need to keep as many dogs, reducing the breeding population further. Especially if a breeder has two breeds.

In my personal view, it would be yet another attack on those making every effort to breed healthy puppies for responsible owners, and fuelling the fire for impulse purchases from dubious sources.

What would be the purpose of such a law? What would you wish to achieve? Is there another way to achieve your objective?

Accordung to the Kennel Club we already have the majority of breeders (80% I believe) that register with them breeding no more than  one litter a year.

I would be for more limits on the number of breeding bitches licensed breeders can keep, bas3d in full tume carers/staff.

It should be fewer than for boarding kennel staff limits, as bitches with litters require much more care than boarders.

Also boarders only normally spend short periods boarding, bitches living in a breeding establishment will need more interaction, excersise and enrichment than a short term visitor.

Licenced breeders I would like to have a max capped on litters allowed each year not 1 litter per bitch every 12 months, some of these places have well over 50 bitches.. wrong on all levels.
Maybe more lobbying of our MP's and Marc Abraham as he wants to stop this kind of breeding.

I would like the KC to raise their game and refuse to register the offspring of dogs that have not passed the recommended health tests for their breed.  That would make a KC puppy a higher grade dog.

"some of these places have well over 50 bitches.. wrong on all levels"

There was a guy on tv (I think the video is on Youtube somewhere) that said he was given a Licence to breed from 75 bitches (seventy five).

Accordung to the Kennel Club we already have the majority of breeders (80% I believe) that register with them breeding no more than  one litter a year.

80% wow

It’s a well known fact that, unfortunately, there are a few big commercial breeders in the UK supplying tens of thousands of puppies (they are licensed) that makes up a good % of the total estimated born each year.

Hobby breeder's (those that have a genuine interest in a breed/breeds) should be encouraged to breed in my opinion.

We just need more hobby breeders.

Unfortunately as you say, there are a few big commercial breeders in the U.K. supplying tens of thousands of puppies (they are licensed).

I don't believe the current demand for puppies today should be met, just my humble opinion I guess.

I don't believe, as the welfare agencies keep telling us that we have too many puppies bred.

The current price rises show that demand outstrips supply, even with all the commercial breeding, legal and ilegal importation.

We have a retention/commitment issue, and a lot of poorly bred pups, that do not fit into the homes they end up in.

More carefully bred puppies from low level breeders who carefully vet homes, and support owners would reduce the numbers ending in rescue, and the breeders would be rehoming the bounces.

I know many people who cannot find a suitable rescue dog.

Many are unsuitable to live with other dogs, children etc.

Some rescues also seem to place very restrictive criteria.

Yes, we need more small scale hobby breeders.

Sadly the breeding regulations seem designed to discourage low level breeding, when many local authorities deem any breeding at all as commerial and requiring a license.

Most occasional/part time breeders do not or want to turn their homes into a 'breeding establishment'.

We want to continue with our adhoc temporary breeding facilities for the few weeks they are needed each year.

Licensing will often require other things, change of use and neighbour consultation, commercial waste disposal, not to mention all the requirements more appropriate for commercial kennels re heating, materials, space, cleaning, seperate food and washing, seperating dogs etc.

The regulations and resulting costs are easily absorbed by a commercial purpose built establishment, but not what those breeding from family companions want or need.

Good post Barbera although we do need to consider what welfare agencies are telling us as well, just saying.

I agree with everything else in your post, well said.

Demand is so high today for puppies (Lock-down Puppies especially) I don't believe this demand should be met today to be honest.

Animal Charity Rescue Centre's are already struggling.

The majority of dogs in rescue are not pedigree dogs from breeders who breed responsibly and check owners throughly
Those breeders need to be supported

Its those from commercial , puppy farms back street breeders where the majority of the problem lies imo

If the demand for puppies isn’t met from within the U.K., surely there’ll just be an increase in the importation or smuggling of puppies from puppy farms abroad - which the U.K. cannot licence, police or control - and of rescued street dogs from other countries. All of which have the potential to end up in U.K. rescue centres.

I think part of the problem for rescue centres is that so many of their dogs have behavioural problems which prevent their being reformed where there is already another dog, or where there are children. And they don’t help matters by refusing to liaise with Breed rescues, or with the responsible breeders of pedigree dogs which end up in their kennels

> I think part of the problem for rescue centres is that so many of their dogs have behavioural problems

This is a huge part of the problem, most of the rescues I know are full to overflowing, but have several dogs with so many problems, so many restrictive criteria on rehoming that they've been in rescue for years, and are likely to stay there forever taking up valuable space. There are worse things than death and it may not be a popular opinion but I'd put the unrehomeable to sleep. Stop all rescues from abroad and then we wouldn't have such a huge problem.

I know so many really kind, lovely people who have rescued dogs, either from this country or abroad who basically ruin their owners lives, who are so reactive that they cannot go near other people or dogs, dog ownership should be a social hobby.

So if we encouraged good breeders and responsible owners through education and were stricter on the assessment of dogs that did end up in rescue I think we'd have a happier dog owning population.

> Stop all rescues from abroad and then we wouldn't have such a huge problem.

This is something I have been saying for many years...why, if the rescue centres in the UK, are so full do we keep having rescues from abroad??

Rescues are strict on their rules/criteria...don't allow people over a certain age, children, all other animals the person has have to be neutered(regardless of species) along with many others, rather than judging each case on its on merit!!!

> And they don’t help matters by refusing to liaise with Breed rescues, or with the responsible breeders of pedigree dogs which end up in their kennels

This comment really stuck home with me .............. I've worked with two Charities now (home checking for Wood Green and Many Tears) and NEITHER were remotely interested in liasing with Breed Rescue.   So I ended up wearing two hats most of the time.

The other thing I have a problem with re taking in a rescue is the fact that Many Tears at least, require EXISTING dogs in the home to be neutered.  Why if the incoming dog has been castrated/spayed.

> Rescues are strict on their rules/criteria

Not all of them, I help out with several rescues who are much more practical in assessing homes, they will rehome to small children, people with other dogs or who work etc as long as it's the right home for the particular dog. They don't have that many bouncing back so their systems work, but still they all have dogs that have been there for years and that have so many problems they're unlikely to ever be rehomed. Such dogs take up valuable kennel space that could have helped a succession of easier dogs find homes.

Replying to all the above posts. Excellent thread and agree entirely with all posts

MT actually require ALL animals in a home are neutered, not just the dogs, which is totally bizarre, if you have an entire dog you cannot adopt a cat from them

I've always thought  that  very strange and can't work out their thinking
Unless in some weird way it indicates to them that u are responsible .
Not something we might all agree on

I've always had at least one second hand dog, at the moment I have two plus an elderly BC. I'm going to upset people now, as my two rescues are both foreign yes terrible aren't I, when I could have had a couple of bull breed crosses born & bred in the UK.
So why didn't I opt for a UK bred bull breed type? There are hundreds if not thousands in rescue for me to chose from, just one problem I just don't like or want a bull breed type.

I know what would have happened to my two dogs, if I hadn't rescued them, they would have been butchered in the kill shelters in their original countries. Not put to sleep humanely, but slaughtered like a food animal, without stunning first, they would have been.starved & had no water before this, they might even have been killed in a dog fight. They are not cross breeds/designer dogs, they are out & out mongrels, not fluffy or pretty, just dogs. However they do have amazing characters & temperaments & have been the ideal companions through this past 14 months.

As you have made a reply from my post... I never said in my post, you had to rescue a dog that you didn't like & I am sure there are many other dogs than bull types in rescue centres!!!

it will happen its only a matter of time!

I don't think there is a shortage of Greyhounds or Lurchers.

What will?

the one litter a year job

Not where I live, near a large city were bull types out number the other dogs by a massive margin & these dogs are mainly unsocialised, untrained thugs, a scattering of pedigrees, plenty of poos, oodles, etc which also do not appeal to me in any shape or form. Badly bred/reared dogs previously owned by equally poor owners.

My terrible foreign boys were not bred by anyone, they are the offspring of mongrel street dogs, who only survive by being non aggressive & clever. I know it is not de rigueur on here to want to save dogs from horrific lives & deaths. I took my oldest, a Rommie, to an Obedience show, he had several dogs lunge & bark at him, what happened? He looked at me as if to say"What's their problem" & did not react in any other way.

Sorry but rescues are not "bursting" at the seams In the UK with "foreign" dogs, Covid puppies/juveniles yes plenty of oodles, poos, sprockers, etc etc in the big all breed rescues, but then I wouldn't be allowed a dog from them

A program on tv recently had a rescue rep who said over 30 thiusand puppies came into UK from Romania last year

I am trying to find a young adult lab or lab cross rescue, suitable for a couple who plan to have children.

There is nothing in any local rescue, Dogs Trust or Local Dogs home, or breed rescue.

Anything saleable is being sild rather than going to rescue currently.

Seems there are only mostly unsuitable lifers.

Were these puppies rescues or pedigree/designer dogs.

No idea, but said puppies, it was a welfare segment on Breakfast TV on BBC, with RSPCA giving the figures.

Agree, I watch the TV show The Dog house matching rescue dogs to new owners and I am amazed at the dogs on there- lovely attractive dogs who are good with kids and other animals. I have never seen such animals at rescue here. 

When I was looking I looked at all the local rescues and it was wall to wall bull breeds, and other status dogs and every single one of them was marked couldn't go with other animals/children. There were NO nice dogs at all. I was not fixated on having a pedigree but did not want something that would want to kill other animals or next doors kids and was not huge nutter that would send me down the road like Ben Hurr.   If the choice was one of those or no dog then it would be no dog for me.

I agree sadly many of the dog's in rescue seem to have restrictions of one sort or another or have behavioural issues that I couldn't manage . The other problem for me is that many are breeds I couldn't provide the right home for  eg huskies
I would however seriously look at greyhound rescues .  Many of those don't have the restrictions as others do .
Over the years I've noticed that rescues have increase restrictions more and more. Its nearly every dog . Is that because the dogs in rescue are those woth more issues or are rescues being more careful due to changes in the law and peoples expectations from dogs ?
Its the same with cats . Really hard to fit the bill. Apparently cats scratch!!! So not suitable for those with children under 8 or sometimes no children at all . Gosh I thought it normal as a kid to have scratches on your hands if u upset the cat . My parents never blinked if we were scratched apart from saying  well leave him alone or u know he doesn't like being stroked there

Rescues near me are full of bullies, terriers, sighthound types, Akitas, huskies/malamutes, border collies with behavioural issues (and ads specifying you need experience with the breed, which I don’t have) and toy dogs that can’t live with cats. I looked at rescues for a long time before deciding on a responsibly-bred papillon pup.

I needed a dog that could at least tolerate other dogs as I wanted to do agility. Anything that chases small fluffy things is out as I have a cat and three rabbits. Akitas are too big, I can’t give a draught dog enough exercise, and while I do like border collies and think a well-bred one would be a good fit for me, I don’t think I could cope with a “broken” one.

lol cats scratch.  I always thought one of the main purposes of cats was to teach children that if you pester animals you get hurt. At least with cat scratches the damage is minor and temporary- perfect for training kids not to bother animals and a lot less damaging then if a dog tells a child off.

Found the very misleading article from the RSPCA, only one set of statistics produced, the article imtimates that these are all puppies being imported & no mention of any of these imports being rescued. The article quite clearly states the "puppies" were commerically imported & not rescued.

I see they are also trying to up the minimum age to 24 weeks, proving the RSPCA have no insight into the needs of a puppies in the formative weeks of their lives

Must of worked here :) and I passed it on to my kids who accept that our.norty tortie who will wack u as u pass  if she feels like it is just her

Yes domestic cats are generally far less damaging than a dog . Although I have been landed in hospital with a cat bite but that was exceptional circumstances as the cat was badly injured and I took a risk to help it and would have been far worse damage if it had been a dog

I would have thought that rescues are in a different category to those mentioned as commercial imports

The foreign rescues i have seen check things out before importing and have homes for them .in most cases .
I think that is a different discussion entirely and I know peoples view can be very opposing on the subject
Or am I being naive?

I am against retail rescue, and importing rescues to con people to agree with the anti breeding rhetoric 'adopt, don't shop'.

Good breeders and breed clubs are given no credit at all for maintaining quality, predictability of type and temperament, and for rescuing their own.

People should not have to rely on rescued feral/street dogs, and commercially and irresponsibly produced pups of dubious health, temperament in order to have a canine companion.

I didn't think they were rescues, but 30 thousand commercial imports rather gives the lie to the oft quoted too many dogs for not enough homes.

The currwnt silly prices also prove that the supply of pupies does nit exceed demand, even if some homes are unsuitable.

There would be fewer digs in rescue if more were bred and homed responsibly.

Instead small scale good breeders are discouraged from breeding by red tape and over regulation, leaving the way open even more to those whise reason for breeding is purely commerial.

> Good breeders and breed clubs are given no credit at all for maintaining quality, predictability of type and temperament, and for rescuing their own.<br

This is so true.    I don't think the average prospective pet owners are aware, or made aware, of the fact that reputable breeders, only breeding for their next generation, can never keep all the puppies in a litter which means that people looking for a puppy will maybe miss out on taking advantage of all that a reputable breeder will put into their occasional litters - from choosing the most appropriate stud dog to careful rearing and so on.   All that goes into producing the very best they can so they have one or two nice puppies for their next generation.  That being the case, the lucky person looking for a pet, will buy into all that breeder has done for that litter.

Instead small scale good breeders are discouraged from breeding by red tape and over regulation, leaving the way open even more to those whise reason for breeding is purely commerial.

I agree Barbera.

Politicians would learn so much if they took the time to come on a forum like this, and listen to what you guys have to say (good replies from everyone).

Thanks