I have a question thats been perplexing me for quite awhile about training and food rewards for giant breeds.  My other half liked the idea of Sophia Yin's learn to earn (get rid of the dinner bowl and use their meal as part of their training) along with connecting yourself to the pup with a buddy lead to help with supervision for first week.  I like the idea but not convinced the feeding aspect is ideal for giant breeds because of the potential for bloat.  Is my logic right with that?  Obviously I will be following the guidance of the breeder when we do get a pup but I like to plan a head to plan for the training and get an idea of how others have done it.  Thanks

I'm not familiar with the method you mention but for me, especially with a growing puppy, you feed 3, perhaps 4 meals a day, breakfast, lunch, the third meal by around 5 pm and if necessary, depending on how well the puppy is doing, a fourth meal before bed.    Leave training for much later and again, I'd not do anything other than feeding a puppy in a bowl at set times.   The only thing you may need to watch is the protein level of the food (with a big breed, 24-26% protein is plenty high enough or you will be encouraging too much growth, too fast.    As for the risk of GDV (Bloat with torsion), when adult feed 2 meals a day, and no food for 2 hours after exercise and no exercise for an hour after a feed.    Despite following that, I had 4 cases of GDV with my Bassets.   And I was warned about this by the breeder of our second, who previously had Danes, and Bloat.

So this training method suggests feeding built into training - rather than in a bowl?   Sorry, I don't like that idea.

As for using an attached lead for housetraining (which is going to take way longer than the first week!!) - that's up to you but I've never done this with our puppies either.    We had a puppy pen for those we kept after the rest had gone to their new homes (and the whelping box collapsed) and latterly crates.

Please listen to your breeder re your new puppy - assuming he/she is an experienced breeder.

It's a good idea if puppy thinks their regular food is high enough value to be used as training treats, you're absolutely right to start training straight away, from the second the pup comes home, start as you mean to go on.

The biggest risks with bloat are wolfing down a large meal then running around like a loon, feeding little and often should not increase the risk or bloat and may actually decrease it, so by all means use pups normal food, but depending how greedy pup is it may be that kibble is not enough of a reward.

My own breed wouldn't get our of bed for anything less than cheese

Yumei Koinu:> (get rid of the dinner bowl and use their meal as part of their training)

I must admit I haven't heard of this method of training nor the buddy lead scenario.  My breed is not of the giant sort but large. I'd be concerned if you withdrew food if the puppy didn't respond in the 'correct' way.  I would also view not providing 3 or 4 meals per day as some what disturbing, The 'on switch' to seek reward rather than feed normally would become paramount for the Puppy and psycologically, I'm not sure how this would work as the meal size increases but the number per day reduce.

Harnessing a young puppy to you surely reduces their opportunity to explore their surroundings, become confident and familiar with their new environment and increases dependency.

Hmm!

I have heard of this method and also know people who have used it with great success.
Basically ditch the bowl and use their food as training rewards 
U might want to do a bit of each while  pup  is very young so it has some food in its bowl and the rest as rewards. There are so many things pup will be doing that u will be rewarding for its really not hard.

I would happily use it , my biggest problem is managing it with raw food .although I did know someone who was extremely successful using this method but putting food in a plastic bag and giving to the dog on a spoon
Training wise pup did amazingly

The indoor lead again ive seen it being used and is helpful for some
but I know with me I would get in a right mess.

Sophia yin is very well thought of in dog training circles and u won't do badly looking at her suggestions. Very sadly the lady is no longer with us
As for bloat as previously said its meals  or water gulped down particularly after exercise that is your biggest risk .feeding small.amounts like this actually could be prevent bloat. Bloat is actually multifactorial as stress is also thought to increase the chances . So all.u can do is to be mindful about it

https://absolute-dogs.com/blogs/news/ditch-the-bowl

Absolute dogs also use this method along with some other ideas. They are also worth watching

Everyone to their own!  Suppose it's a bit like any fad.  Everyone thinks it's fabulous until the bottom falls out of the reasoning and the end result is a disaster.  Then they say "no animals were harmed during this research".  Yeah right!  Why can't our dogs be our dogs and have natural reactions within their species? Manners. understanding & a natural willingness to please?
The right breed in the right environment will naturally adopt such behaviours.  Fundamentally they respond to the name at a very tender age....even if it's initially "Puppy Puppy Puppy" in my world

I am not the best at navigating forums or social platforms, so apologies if this is jumbled.

Oh no, your poor bassets.  I didn't realise they had to worry about things like that too. 

I was not keen on the learn to earn when I initially read it quite a few years ago.  It was only after reading Sophia Yin's research that I had a better handle of what was going on but that doesn't necessarily mean its whats best for feeding for every dog.  My mother has used this initially with her golden and phased it out as she grew older (She will still do it as bonding time once in awhile because my mom likes hand feeding her) but I wasn't sure if it be right for a Great Dane or a Mastiff.  I will definitely be following my breeders guidance (very experienced and highly recomended) but I like to hear other perspectives and more importantly, I need to start having a training plan in place for my head and to help the other family members along.  I've read so much its ridiculous. 

The 'buddy lead' is only temporarily from my understanding and think I accidentally misrepresented it by linking it with food rewards the way I did.  I added it to not so much as a question but to describe Yin's learn to earn program which for humans training a new pup, seems like 7 days of intensity.  Puppy is still meant to have independent play and exploration without the lead  but with owners full supervision. (And thats if I haven't muddled it up with other things I have read).   She suggests the lead for when the human may be likely to get distracted like doing dishes or working at the computer and more likely to  miss the pups cues to go to the toilet.  It seems to be her solution to try to help people learn their pups body language.   Again, I can see where it would work great for some but not for others.  For instance, I sometimes get so focused that I think even with the puppy attached to me I may miss it if Im in the midst of reading.  I too also wondered how that would work with raw.  I will definitely check out the other sites to see how they have done it and glad to hear other people's thoughts.  Thanks

I also got to manage how to find stuff like a crate and suitable toys.  I can not find a big enough crate in the UK.

Have a look at absolutely dogs. The are others as well that use similar methods
You have interpreted the buddy line correctly BTW.
Yep it is possible with raw but not quite as easy as with kibble.
The most important thing in training imo is to start your training from day one.nothing big just teaching the pups name and of course beginning house training .never to early what ever reward based method u use

If u are on fb there is a group about bloat. U may find some of the stories too upsetting but there is good helpful info in the files so u don't have to read the stories
Unfortunately bloat can affect many breeds. In our family we lost a gsd and my flatcoat to torsion with bloat even though we got to the vet quickly .so I do share your concern .all u can do is learn the signs and take up the ideas to prevent. There is  some research with danes that suggest it could have a genetic component as well .

despite having read that for like 20 minutes over and over, I still messed up.  Basically I was interested in the feeding training question but used the lead thing to describe it as well incase people were not familiar with the 'learn to earn' idea.  Totally having an early night tonight.  I guess my concern is how do I give treats without over doing it with nutrition aspects or weight gain.  If I could do the food bowl thing, then in theory that may be healthier from a weight and growth perspective. But then it may not be right for some breeds.  Nevertheless, thanks for the feedback.

furriefriends: 

> The most important thing in training imo is to start your training from day one.nothing big just teaching the pups name and of course beginning house training .never to early what ever reward based method u use

Totally agree with your point of view.  (just a little note:  Puppies placed at 8 weeks old have very little bladder control so body language is almost non existent - poos, yes, squatting is the 'give away')

> <br />Unfortunately bloat can affect many breeds. In our family we lost a gsd and my flatcoat to torsion with bloat even though we got to the vet quickly

So sad.  I am sorry you have had to experience this.

Thank u .

I wouldn't wait for a squat. Out every 20 mins come rain or shine with a treat until a wee or poo is done

furriefriends:  That's Ok. It's so difficult when one passes.

With my breed it is feed, hiccup & poo time. must be a digestive thing?  (don't know for sure).  Trying to grab 8 of them at a time can be quite a challenge! Like you say, repetition will always work

Yep that would be hard. Fortunately I've only had one at a time to be housetrained . :)

furriefriends: > I've only had one at a time to be housetrained . :

Would you like to be involved in Breeding with your love of dogs?  It is so rewarding

No way. I admire those who do  or I wouldn't have my dogs but I really would worry too much about the life of the pups I bred
I enjoy meeting others as the show groupie since I cant show
Brooke wasn't happy with the whole thing so we stopped

I found one of the best things in training my pup was to give a few toots on the whistle as I was giving her a meal so she associated hear whistle, go to human, get food. Her breeder started this with the entire litter when they were weaned. When we started walking her we spent a lot of time on recall games with whistle, voice and treats. She now has a very good recall.

furriefriends:  > I really would worry too much about the life of the pups I bred

Yes, I understand, fair comment.
I only show at local level for fun but totally understand the enjoyment you get from mixing with other doggie lovers.
Brooke obviously made the decision to stay away from the limelight.  Such individuals!

I think that's a brilliant idea jodie .  wish I had trained mine to the whistle for recall as well .
The other thing I have learned is how important impulse control is and would work much harder to get that right in the future from the beginning

Agree about the impulse control. I think I’ve mentioned before about the Kikopup ‘don’t mug the hand’ video which is basically impulse control. It worked a treat on a 13 week old puppy and also seemed to help with the hand biting. I still ask her for good eye contact at least once a day when food is involved (given her breed and greediness). She’ll be 8 in May.

Kiko pup is good . I still do the eye contact as well even though brooke is nearly 10.
Training is an ongoing learning curve for me never mind the dogs
Each dog I've learned more and often different methods too. Over the years training methods have changed so much when I think back to how I was shown to train my first gsd in the 80's
Very different to now in many ways

Jodi:

> I found one of the best things in training my pup was to give a few toots on the whistle

Whistle Command:  Brilliant way of working. Our wee 'learners' love a whistle alongside a dummy/toy and relish in the next lesson'  All of my Gundog's training start with this invigorating sound and respond instinctively to it.

Sometimes old ways are the best ways!

I’m also a big fan of teaching impulse control as early as possible.

Silverleaf79:,> I’m also a big fan of teaching impulse control as early as possible

Absolutely! Very much akin to my Peg Dogs,  although the younsters have that naughty streak of 'who will get away with pushing the limits?'

Ha ha. I had an Irish Setter in the 70’s and it was choke chains and Barbara Woodhouse all the way. Actually there was some good things she did like hand signals as well as the voice for commands, but most of it was quite harsh and certainly no treats. It was really nice when Ian Dunbar turned up

It was much the same when I had my first gsd .lots of shouting commands and  check chains . No rewards .

Interesting character was Barbara Woodhouse.

I have a Barbara Woodhouse book somewhere and I read it when I want to remind myself I’m a decent trainer!

I’d actually like to get rid of it but I feel like I need to hang onto it to stop potential dogs getting jerked around by someone who didn’t know there are better ways.

And I can’t bring myself to destroy a book, no matter how much I disagree with its contents.

I dread to think how damaged my sensitive River would be by now if I was a punitive trainer. He is so joyful about training, but he wouldn’t be if I taught with pain and fear.

> Oh no, your poor bassets.  I didn't realise they had to worry about things like that too.  <br />

It wasn't all bad with my GDV cases.   The first survived but he was a strong hound even if he was in his 12th year.  He never had another episode.   However, I saw how much it knocked him back and when the second blew, knowing he wasn't going to so easily recover, we opted not to bring him out of the general anaesthetic - my vet asked us to let him open him up to see if he could learn more about the condition.  The third, which happened back in the UK (one we brought back with us) was in his 14th year.   His wasn't 'typical' in that he'd not had breakfast when he blew and despite getting him to our vet fast, he was in a pretty bad way by then so we decided to let him go.   The fourth was again not typical - we found him in his crate surrounded by white froth.   He too was off to the vet fast and he was on the table, opened up and his stomach tacked and back off and home by around 6 pm that evening.   He had to lose his spleen which had ruptured.  He was 8 and unlike the other 3 fit and this was totally unexpected.  He never had another episode although at first, I was anxious whenever I fed him!  There is evidence within my breed and in Bloodhounds (via Liverpool Uni. who years ago, did some work on what causes this)  to suggest a genetic connection.   However, my first two were not directly related much as our third was grandfather to our fourth.

I guess the feeding during training idea might avoid a dog putting on too much weight, if training involves food. 

Yes u are right about a possible genetic link .I think it was Danes that some research was done that showed this but probably other  reeds too.
Its a ghastly condition.  My flatcoat had a operation to remove part of her jaw due to a fast growing tumour and bloated the day after she came home.
She hadn't been recently fed and was on no exercise . The vet suggested and my research said similar that it was likely a combination of stress and also that she was in rimadyal which In some can cause gastric issues .
My sisters gsd also had not been recently fed or exercise and was only showing stretching in the prayer position and reluctance to move.
Vet with 30 mins but even the vet wasn't sure . She had previously had her stomach tacked but finally vet decided to open her up after xrays and it was too late.
As u say it is complicated and presents in different ways

I should have said our fourth was found first thing in that condition - before they'd been let out.   And he'd not had his breakfast either = untypical.   He had no reason to be stressed either, although there is a suggestion that stress can be involved.

I have never ditched the bowl (the more popular term for Yin's approach), and I never will.  I don't find it necessary, and I don't like the idea of my dogs having to work for every single morsel - they wouldn't as "wild" (village) dogs.  A lot of scavenging yes, but many are also actively fed by the villagers, and they evolved alongside us eating what we threw out, so working for food is minimal compared to their wolf ancestors.

So, mine have mealtimes, and they have enrichment and training on top (and mealtimes are enrichment in themselves, too).  I make allowances for what I'm using in training by just keeping an eye on their weight, so my 6 month old is from today having his meals cut down a little as he's getting a bit heavy, between lots of food hunting in the garden, chews to curb his teething, and not a lot of exercise over the past few weeks for a few reasons.  But that's as far as I go with it really - I just check his ribs daily and adjust his meals by eye as needed.  I never weigh anything or dish out his meals ahead of time and take food from those for training.  It's worked fine for me for 18 years, 18 dogs and 4 puppies in that number!

In terms of the training itself, at the beginning I concentrate on day to day stuff: housetraining, name recognition, and starting recall.  I started lead training him at 11 weeks, and by then his recall was coming along nicely too.  Everything else has been left until now and he's just been allowed to be a puppy, have fun, charge about with my others and build fitness and condition.  I've also built a good history of swapping items for food, so that if he steals something (and he is quite the thief), he brings it to me readily if I call him instead of running off with it and staying out of reach.

Now, I'm beginning to build things up, as he is going to be an agility dog so I need to get some tighter obedience in place now.  Today I'm working on his wait, and starting some fundamentals for control around agility jumps (no actual jumping, just maneuvres).  Nothing too strenuous, just getting the ideas in place so that when the class restarts hopefully at the end of next month, he'll be where he needs to be.

Good to have your opinion Nikita given your professional  training experience in particular

Anybody that uses kongs, gives long lasting food chews, raw meaty bones, using puzzle games or does garden scatter feeding for dogs to find food is ditching the bowl as that is all part of it.

Agree with you Nikita, I’ve raised my puppies pretty much the same way as you have and haven’t bothered with ditching the bowl. I usually use their kibble for training as goldens see any food as manna from heaven and try to please you in order to have it, so I just reduced how much appeared at meal times. I don’t believe they notice if it’s a smaller meal, just so long as there’s something there in the bowl.

I have enough trouble fading food lures as it is!

Not all dogs are food motivated (my breed mostly are).

The trick is to find what that dog finds most rewarding.

This can be breed dependent as well as individual.

> Anybody that uses kongs, gives long lasting food chews, raw meaty bones, using puzzle games or does garden scatter feeding for dogs to find food is ditching the bowl as that is all part of it.

Ditching the bowl is exactly that - you stop feeding meals from bowls, and everything comes from enrichment toys or through training, used for rewards on walks etc.  Otherwise, how are you ditching the bowl?