I'm currently working with a breeder to import a future puppy into the UK and was hoping someone that has imported before can answer a few questions for me.

My main question is about the rabies vaccine for the pet travel scheme. Is the rabies vaccine a single dose at 12 weeks or one dose at 12 weeks and then another a couple of weeks later? The information I can find for rabies vaccine for dogs says one dose at 12 weeks and then a booster at 1yr but when I got a rabies vaccine myself I had two doses 2 weeks apart. Is the single dose vaccine acceptable for the pet travel scheme?

I emailed APHA but they just emailed me back with the same pages online that didn't answer this question, so was hoping someone with experience could help.

This from the NOAH compendium dosage is towards the end

BTW human & animal Rabies vaccines are different

So looks like a single dose at 12 weeks. Then the 21 day wait.

Thank you

When I imported in 2019 it was one vaccination at 12 weeks and then travel allowed after 21 days if I remember correctly

It's one dose at 12 weeks+, then a 21 day wait before importing.

Thanks everyone.

You should be aware that some countries interpret it as 3 months plus 21 days, not 12 weeks plus 21 days. My girl came from Croatia so she was actually 17 weeks when she arrived given the few days of travel. She also had her jab done at 8 weeks and then again at 12, it was detailed as a two part vaccine. Don’t know if this is standard or not.

> You should be aware that some countries interpret it as 3 months

The wording for our pet passports and also the Nobivac data sheet both used to say 3 months, they changed to 12 weeks which makes it much clearer.

My import too was given a rabies jab at 8 weeks, so he could get out and socialise sooner, then he of course needed a second rabies jab at 12 weeks.

>She also had her jab done at 8 weeks and then again at 12, it was detailed as a two part vaccine. Don’t know if this is standard or not.

No, it isn't standard. A rabies vax given before 12 weeks (some manufacturers still say 3 months, but for the purposes of the EU pet passport the rules were standardised to 12 weeks) will need to be repeated after 12 weeks to be accepted. But it isn't a 2-part vaccine, as lepto is.

I think it’s possibly related to the fact that in Europe it’s commonplace for puppies to move between borders and have their rabies vaccine earlier. Out of 8 pups only one puppy out of my girl’s litter stayed in Croatia, the rest were all in their new european countries (excluding mine) before 12 weeks. Those countries were Slovenia, Finland, Hungary and Germany.

It's not really good medical practice to give the rabies vaccine at 8wks The reason it's given at 12wks for the Pet Passport (and no earlier) is because it may well not work or be effective, given any earlier.

In addition, it's a powerful vaccine and not something I'd be wanting to give at 8wks old. Having to give it at 12wks to get a pup as early as possible, isn't great already - let alone also giving it 4 weeks before that.

I know I wasn’t very happy about it but I spoke to three different breeders and they were all doing the same.

They are flying in the face of the manufacturers instructions & of course run the risk of maternal immunity negating the first dose & of vaccinosis occurring in the puppy with dire effects.

Rabies should not be given at the same time as other vaccines, this is dangerous even in adults & there are cases of adult dogs dying, because rabies was given at the same time or within a week of other vaccines, from an over stimulated immune system

Presumably the bitch was also up to date with her rabies vaccination, meaning that any rabies injection given to a young pup will probably be made ineffective by the maternal antibodies, and so the pup is still at risk.

> the rest were all in their new european countries (excluding mine) before 12 weeks.

That is actually ilegal. The Pet travel rules are the same for all EU countries and the Pet travel scheme.

They may well have been moved before 15 weeks, as there are few/no border checks.

Giving a Rabies vaccine, if not repeated after the maternal antbodies have fully waned will leave the pup, and more importantly with Rabies, at risk as if never vaccinated.

>That is actually ilegal. The Pet travel rules are the same for all EU countries and the Pet travel scheme.

That's not totally true. There are European countries which permit pups at 8wks to travel into/through: https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/pet-movement/eu-legislation/young-animals_en

For eg, those which say 'yes' in this table. It is also possible to pick a way through a few countries, using those countries which say 'yes'.

> They are flying in the face of the manufacturers instructions

From the Nobivac data sheet "* Primary vaccination may be administered at an earlier age (minimum in dogs and cats of 4 weeks of age), but then a repeat vaccination must be given at the age of 12 weeks."

I wouldn't personally vaccinate a young pup, but it is common practice in some countries, presumably they have found it necessary/worth it.

> will need to be repeated after 12 weeks to be accepted.

At/on 12 weeks is fine.

* Primary vaccination may be administered at an earlier age (minimum in dogs and cats of 4 weeks of age), but then a repeat vaccination must be given at the age of 12 weeks.

I wonder what scientific evidence backs up doing it that early then at 12 weeks . Rather than just the once at 12 weeks .

Thank you, yes so to clarify that I’m not suggesting anyone should do anything illegal, hence why my girl was 17 weeks on arrival following her second rabies vaccine at 3 months with a 21 day wait plus transport. Also important to note you get 5 days to the hour for tapeworm treatment which needs stamping in the right place in the passport too, so important to time this with however many days transport if you’re using a ground transportation service.

I realise it's not the same as importing, but looking at the suggestion very young puppies are vaccinated against rabies, I wonder why then our puppies born out in Canada when we lived out there, weren't vaccinated against rabies until they were 4 months +.   I'd be very concerned about having a much younger puppy given this jab.

Exactly Mamabas, in an ideal world you wouldn't give the rabies jab any time near the DHP. You'd separate it out and give it as late as legally possible. Which is why I think even giving it at 12wks is problematic really but when you need to get a pup over ASAP it seems the only way.

onetwothreefour:  I must admit I know nothing about importing/exporting so this is a whole new learning which I very much appreciate.

So if a puppy has their 1st DHP L2 jab at 8 weeks, and the 2nd DHPL2 at 10 or DHPL4 at 8 weeks and 2nd DHPL4 at 12 but the rabies jab can be given at 12 weeks and then 21 days later,  following advice that the DHP & Rabies should be as far apart as possible, does this mean that DHPL2 1st & DHPL2 2nd should be given at no earlier than 12 weeks of age and DHPL4 1st at 8 weeks and DHPL4 second at 12 weeks then should the Puppy's 1st Rabies jab be at 16 wks and the second 21 days later.  Sorry, just wanted to make sure I had picked things up properly.

There is no logical reason to give 2 rabies vaccinations, in fact no reason to give 2 doses of any vaccine to dogs
The only reason that puppies under 10 weeks are recommended to have 1 core vaccine dose, followed by another after 10 weeks, is because the maternal immunity status is unknown without a titre test & most vets don't suggest doing one, as it reduces the profit they make on vaccinations.

I haven't vaccinated a puppy under 10 weeks of age for over 40 years, I follow a protocol given to me by the leading Professor of Immunology at Glasgow University. Titre test between 10 & 12 weeks & vaccinate in line with results. It isn't rocket science

>should the Puppy's 1st Rabies jab be at 16 wks and the second 21 days later

No! The puppy should have its only rabies injection any time from 12 weeks onwards. They don't need two. The '21 days later' bit is when they can leave the country.

Ann R Smith:  > It isn't rocket science

Sorry, maybe I got it all wrong. So no Puppy should be vaccinated before 10 wks which then dictates that the 2nd jab L2 should be given at 12 wks or 14 wks if L4?
So if the rabies jab is not recommended before 12 weeks but should be far apart from DHPL2/4 then should the Puppy have the 1st Rabies jab at 14 wks if L2 & 16 if wks if L4.

Apologies but one of my Spaniel Litter due next week will be following my ex Son in Law over to Italy as a companion and means my Grandson will have a  friend when he gets to visit his Dad.

Due to the ineffectiveness of any Lepto vaccine(due to the numerous serotypes or serovars in excess of 250)& the proven contraindications of the vaccine, I was advised only to use Lepto vaccines if there was a noted number of cases in the area. This, as I previously stated, was part of the protocol given to me by a Professor of Immunology & not a GP vet. I know who I consider to be the expert.

Ann R Smith:  Thank you for confirming,

> I wonder why then our puppies born out in Canada when we lived out there, weren't vaccinated against rabies until they were 4 months +.

.... and then it was just the one vaccination for rabies.  Not two.    We had our puppies given the usual core vaccination at 10 weeks + (two sets, two weeks apart).   When exporting from the UK into Canada, our hounds weren't given their rabies jabs until they arrived in Canada.  At the time, we were recommended they had a local booster for distemper as, we were told, it was slightly different in Canada.    These were adults, other than the two we imported out there, our foundation bitch who was 5 months when she came to us out there, and later on, a male at 7 months who we imported for his bloodlines.  Both were successful in the ring in Canada, gaining their Can.titles however.    I knew of one breeder out there who apparently titre tested all their litters before taking their puppy vaccination, to see what was needed.

Again regulations differ and our 'imports' were from the UK to Canada.  Our lot had the required rabies jabs during the first two weeks on returning to the UK (and going into quarantine was that was before Pet Passport).    If any was due rabies around the time they were leaving Canada, I left getting it boostered out there so they didn't receive too much!!   I can't remember what happened re the other boosters but I don't think any was needed during that 6 months in quarantine.

> and then it was just the one vaccination for rabies.  Not two.

It's still only one   It's only two if for some reason the vaccine is given before 12 weeks, then they need another at 12 weeks, presumably because of maternal antibodies.

Can someone help me with this... I'm just in a pickle.

I'm looking to import a puppy this summer from Belgium to the UK. The current hope is for us to travel over and raise the pup in Belgium, although obviously this is going to be dependent on Covid. (That's another subject, which is equally stressful - but let's assume it will be ok by this summer!) And then we will return with the pup when the Pet Passport allows us.

My understanding is the pup has to be vaccinated at 12 weeks - and then can travel to UK 21 days later?

However, the breeder is saying: "if you rent something in Belgium, you can have your pup at 9 wo, like all Belgians, follow the vaccination program with my vet, and when the puppy is 3 months old + 22 days old (thus not 12 weeks old but 15-16 wo)  you are allowed to travel through all Europa and UK."  The bit I put in bold was underlined(!).

I don't think I quite registered what she was saying when I first read this. But for some reason it's just hit me. It will add another 2 weeks to the time we are away, because 3 calendar months is longer than 12 weeks. Is she right with this? It will cause a problem because my husband has to work back in the UK and won't be able to stay there into that time. Plus we need to just book/hold some travel and I need to know when to do that for.

If this is some weird thing her vet does, we can just go to a different Belgium vet for our Pet Passport....? I know the UK will allow us back in 21 days after the rabies at 12 weeks, but do Belgium vets have some weird thing about not vaccinating before 3 months instead of 12 weeks??

I also thought it was 21 days after rabies we can return? Not 22 days? (Is that just to be on the safe side, it's not hard to make 1 day longer?)

Arrggh.

PS Edited to say, I found this page which is the official Belgian Vet Association page and ran it through google translate: https://upv.be/2019/05/06/vaccination-annuelle-du-chien/  It says: "Unlike other vaccines, this should only be injected from the age of 3 months." How do I find a vet who will instead give it at 12wks? Can I cross into France? (I know I'm not supposed to do that!)

I can’t offer any advice but it was why my girl from Croatia was nearly 17 weeks as her breeder’s vet insisted ithat for UK entry it was after 3 months and then travel on the 22nd day. I will add this was the second vaccine as the first was done early and I now know this is not commonplace, but as all bar one of the litter were homed around Europe, some crossed borders early where they are permitted to. Good luck.

Thanks. I can see where the misunderstanding comes from, although not the 21/22 day thing?? That is clearly 21 days everywhere... Presumably with the day of the vaccination being day 0 and then the next day being day 1?

Anyway, I have now emailed about 5 vets in Belgium to ask them when the earliest the rabies can be given is, and if any of them are giving it at 12 weeks, they've got my money

Phew, I just heard back from a vet in Brussels who confirms it is 12 weeks

But it seems there is some misunderstanding with some vets thinking it is 3 months.

Anyway, chaos averted.

I suspect she's probably just a little out of date, It used to be 3 months for the rabies vaccine (on nobivacs data sheet), it was when I brought my last boy in, they have changed it since to 12 weeks, I'm assuming for clarity.

Well done!

> I can see where the misunderstanding comes from, although not the 21/22 day thing?? That is clearly 21 days everywhere... Presumably with the day of the vaccination being day 0 and then the next day being day 1?

Exactly right. There needs to be a full 21 days wait before travel, and some people were counting the day of the vaccination as Day 1, and finding they weren't allowed past border control. So it's simpler to say that pets can travel on the 22nd day.

Phew, ok, it means I have the dates right. Now just need Covid 19 to go away on the continent by 2 months time

I have heard back from 2 more Belgium vets (I did get a bit carried away and thought I'd canvas a few!) and they also confirm it is 12 weeks. Phew.

Can I just pick people's brains about vaccinations and what it would be best to do with this? I live in a low risk area for parvo (very isolated, no cases for 5+ years) so I usually give 1st vaccination at 9wks (only DHP) and then a 2nd vaccination at 20wks to be sure I've missed maternal antibodies (also just DHP). I don't usually give any lepto.

The breeder's vet is giving 1st vaccinations (sadly) at 8wks, and I'm pretty sure it will be DHP and Lepto. I plan to gently enquire about whether they might skip the Lepto for my puppy but I really don't think I'm going to be successful with that one. (Very established breeder...). Then we will be collecting the pup at 9wks. (Which is when the breeder lets pups go, at the earliest.)

Then we need to have the rabies done at 12wks so we can get home...

What do I do with the other vaccination? I don't want to give it too close to the rabies, because I know that takes a hit on the immune system. I want to leave at least 2 weeks before and after the rabies jab, before giving any other. And I won't give Lepto - even if the pup had one Lepto already. So I have no need to give another jab within 4 weeks of the first jab, because I'm not boosting the Lepto.

My options are:

1) Give another DHP at 10wks (then rabies at 12wks). And then I would probably need to give a third DHP at 20wks when we got back home, with my own vet. Because 10wks is a bit young to rely on maternal antibodies having gone. I know titre testing is an option but this is a high energy breed that to restrain for a blood draw is going to be quite an unpleasant experience at the vet at a young age, so I'd rather avoid that. This option also involves having the "I don't want Lepto" conversation with a Belgium vet which sometimes doesn't go down too well... (My own vet totally knows what I do and is ok with it!)

2) Just give the rabies at 12wks whilst we are abroad, then go to our own vet when we get home for a 2nd DHP at 20wks. I like this option but I worry the pup won't be protected in Belgium whilst we socialise with just one DHP jab at 8wks... But I could just try to avoid high risk places and carry pup in those locations and that kinda thing.

I think those are my two choices. If I wait until 2 weeks after the rabies jab, that will be 14wks - and we will be coming home in a week's time, so that seems a bit silly rather than just waiting another week...

Since the whole point of you staying over there is I assume to make sure pup is properly socialised I would go for the 10 week DHP and then just leave it till a year old for his booster, as you live in a pretty safe area, you're unlikely to get to many competitions this year due to covid, those 10 week jabs will probably be fine, certainly millions of dogs for years have had jabs at 8 and 10 weeks then a year. I'd rather do that than give a 3rd DHP, but of course you have to do what you feel comfortable with.

Belgium is quite densely populated (with people and dogs), I'd rather have the extra protection there.

That's a good point chaumsong, and a third option.

But I might find it hard to get a Belgian vet to give another DHP at 10wks - they are going to want to boost the Lepto in the first jab. If it's Lepto 4, they will want to wait 4 weeks after the first at 8wks. I will need to have the Please Don't Give Lepto conversation. I guess I could try, I can always just walk out

In the US it's pretty common for dogs to get 3 rounds of shots, rather than the 2 given in Europe. DHP each time, no Lepto...