Hi All,
I have a stud dog that he sired many litters so far in UK without any problems. He's been health testes with excellent results. He always getting right, I never got any problems at all with him. He knows his job however in the last few matings I found out that after about 10-15 min tie he start growling at the female. Of course both dogs are always hold by myself and an owner and supervised properly back to back. But the problem is now with my dog. Why he start growling at the female ? For me looks like he want to be off asap and he's bored during the tie. Me , of course control his behavior , telling him to be quite and it helps but anyone else had simillar experience? He's been examinated by a vet and no issues at all with him. Its a german shepherd Thank you

I have no idea what's going on.   The only one of mine, who could 'help himself', hated me to be involved so he was softly rumbling at me, not at his bitches.

Another thought however, you say the dog is in good health etc. but have you had his hips scored - I've gone to whether he starts to feel some pain when mating, if he's developing arthritis (hips)?  Probably wrong but just a thought if he's now getting older.

Yes , his hips are 8, elbow 0.  First few minutes if tie he doesn't look like he's in pain , for me its more like a " I want to be off, tell her to let me go "
He sired around 23 litters so far, never had problems before with mating process with him. Regards , Maggie

Wow, that's a lot of litters.

Perhaps retire him, as he must have some decent offspring to go on from???

>Why he start growling at the female ?

Pain would be my first instinct. Might be worth getting a Vet to check him over, to rule out any issues that might not be obvious.

Hes been checked by a vet , no issues found.

When the tie is over, does he stop growling and how is he with the bitch afterwards?

> When the tie is over, does he stop growling and how is he with the bitch afterwards?

That would be interesting to know, but surely if he's sired that number of litters/puppies,  he's done his bit for the future of his breed now = he probably should be retired.    We had the still top winning male in the breed ever, who was of course, used by everybody.   Far too many!   Surely not every bitch is suited to every dog - I turned away far more enquiries for my two boys, than I accepted because I wasn't happy that the bloodlines of every bitch, would nick with mine.

You say his hips are 8 - but is he even on both sides?

Hip 8 - right 5 , left 3 so 8 in total. I did long break now , hes been off stud for 3 months so we will see next time if any issue. If yes , I might retire him or will use only with my own females in the future. I've spoke to many breeders about it , they suggested as he is just very dominate dog ( becasue he is ) and he might just want to be off quickly.

When tie over he just happy to go home straight away and behaved as always . He growling last time about twice only and I told him to stop and he did.

>When tie over he just happy to go home straight away and behaved as always

That's good then.

I always reckon a dozen litters is plenty for a good dog. (A bad dog needn't produce any!)

> When tie over he just happy to go home straight away

Don't you have his bitches come to him?  Might some of this have to do with being in strange surroundings?  He's feeling vulnerable?

Decent hips btw.

All females coming to us and mating is in his area dont know,  maybe coz hes so dominate dog , very dominate . And he just want to be off.

If he is so dominant, is it a good idea to be passing his temperament on?

Lots of GSDs with better hips scores that are known to improve hips. There's a stud dog on CD that has produced over 1200 puppies & he has never been shown or worked, he is health tested, but is popular because he's a LC

Not really for GSDs plenty of good dogs with better hips, need to be as low as possible & even & also known to improve the hip status of offspring

> I did long break now , hes been off stud for 3 months

Wow!!!

3 months would not be a long break in my breed, or in many other breeds.

A well used dog in my breed in the past might have had 2 - 3 litters in a year and 20 in his lifetime up to the 1990's, if an import.

I was involved with 2 imported stud dogs since 2001,  who both became and produced Champions and other winning/quality offspring.

One produced 8 UK and 1 overseas litters (our breed numbers had reduced markedly by then), and has been influential.

The other now 10 years old has just recently produced his 5th UK litter ( and 2 abroad). He has produced Champions and CC/RCC winners in the older litters so far.

Many studs including champions are lucky to sire more than 2 or 3 litters in their life.

Ann R:  > GSDs plenty of good dogs with better hips, need to be as low as possible & even & also known to improve the hip status of offspring.

Yes the lower the better and even are desirable although the Kennel Club advise a total of 9 or below at the moment which is reduction from 12 last year so improving as time goes by.

> the Kennel Club advise a total of 9 or below at the moment which is reduction from 12 last year so improving as time goes by.

Can you point me in the direction of this info please. I can’t find it on the KC website and the BVA state GSD breed median is 11 as of 2019.

Would be interested in other breeds info if the KC are actually making recommendations now.

ETA. I assume you are referring to GSDs as Ann was in your quote.

Apologies;  Median for Labs was 11  five yrs ago.  now 9
Median for GSH was 15 five yrs ago.  now 11
so a reduction in both as time goes by.
The KC ABS Sheme advised using the BVA median as the acceptable scoring on the old site. Now this can be accessed through the link to BVA on the Health Testing page of the KC website.

Thanks, yes I know the ABS advise the BVA which was where I looked, was just wondering if the KC had decided to put their own recommendation on but apparently not.

The ABS Inspectors advise the median from the BVA to Breeders. I understood the Inspectors are part of the Kennel Club Team.  Maybe not - just believed they would all be singing from the same hymn sheet.

Yes they do I just wondered if they had started putting that recommendation on the KC website as well so that non ABS members could see it easily. Not everyone will click the BVA link and search for the fine details unfortunately.

I agree. Think maybe the link is their silly 'new way'  of expecting potential new Breeders to do their own further homework as if it's not difficult enough if they are your first port of call.
It's all about responsible Puppy Buying now and not about responsible Breeding IMO.

Breed Specific Statistics : Mean/Median Hip Scores 2019

That’s the one I was looking at

Is he growling at you holding him, the bitch he's attached to or the other owner? And are you sure?

I would also be thinking about pain. I would get a vet to check out his penis thoroughly and testicles and would consider using a trial of some pain meds like Metacam (I don't know if they affect sperm quality, you would need to discuss with the vet) and give him the Metacam before he breeds. If he stops growling when he is on Metacam (or similar) then you can be sure it is pain related somehow and then try to figure out what is causing the pain....

> give him the Metacam before he breeds.

I'd be cautious of this, a friend once used a stud dog that was on rimadyl and the whole litter were strange, all in different ways. We knew the lines inside out for generations back, no idea where it all came from, we don't know if it was anything to do with the rimadyl, but we can't rule it out either.  The one bitch in the litter carried a huge coat  and never came in season, her owner eventually decided to have her neutered, the vet couldn't find any ovaries. One dog was the equivalent of a severely learning disabled human, he was very slow and had some mobility issues. Another boy turned into my (in)famous Mr Beastly, the other three boys in the litter all died by the age of 5. Could all be bad luck/coincidence, just that specific mix of genes, but to be on the safe side I would never breed from a dog or bitch on any nsaid.

I think it's very unlikely that's going to be the result of Rimadyl, but since semen takes about 2 months to be produced and is just stored in the testes until then, it would be pretty simple to only give the pain meds a few hours before breeding. It's not going to affect the semen then...it's physically impossible.

Is he growling at you holding him, the bitch he's attached to or the other owner? And are you sure?

Growling at the female , he listen to me when I tell him to stop. He never ever growling at the ppl specially not at me.

I would suggest he is uncomfortable and get a McTimoney Chiropractor vet look at him.  I personally do not think he is overused.

Rayavade:  > get a McTimoney Chiropractor vet look at him.

That sounds very specialised.  What exactlly is their field of expertise please & thanks?

McTims aren't vets usually, they are their own profession.

Hoggie - similar to human chiropractors, they use spinal/skeletal manipulation to promote good health and ease pain and discomfort.  Mine has worked wonders for some of my dogs, including with aggression, and helped me get to the bottom of problems that vets have missed.  My chiropractor for my own back problems is a McTim too, after seeing how much more effective their gentle approach is than the traditional, rather violent type.

They have to study anatomy and chiropractic at college for a number of years to become qualified.  I want to say it's a 3 year anatomy + physiology degree then specialising with 2 years chiro, but I haven't looked in a while so I may have that second bit wrong.

I would get one to have a look as well.  Pain isn't necessarily due to skeletal issues such as hips, as I and my dogs can testify!

And they are very good for humans and animals agree with nikita.
Funny but atm brooke has something not right with her hip and had just said i might make an appointment with the lovely lady near us

I use a McTimoney chiro for myself and my dogs. They cam usually flag up problems as well which a vet may need to look at and pin point the problem areas.

Nikita:  > McTims aren't vets usually, they are their own profession

Thanks so much for this info - that is amazing - I should probably have picked up on the chiro part but until you explained, I assumed they were like human chiros - brutal!
It's amazing how a different approach can make a huge difference with your dogs!

I had no idea they existed and I'm now asking myself how many dogs could have avoided serious spinal surgery if this option could be offered first?
Another thing learned today!!!

You can get McTimoney chiropractors for humans as well and they are no way brutal. I went for treatment with one for a trapped nerve in my spine and was amazed at the difference it made. They seem to work with little flicking movements that relax the joint so that it clicks into its proper place on its own without any pain at all. I had been in a road accident over 40 years before and had never been able to turn my head to the left as far I could to the right after. I hadn't mentioned this to her as I was so used to it I never thought but she said oh dear there seems to be something tight here, gave a couple of flicks and I can now move my head the same both ways. Mind you when I tried to make an appointment I found I had accidentally rung the vet part of the practice.

As agility tervs says mctimony is a different type of chiropractic to other ones and is very gentle. osteopathathy is also useful but often quite hards that cane quite hard .

I as a human have used both mctimony and osteopathic treatments depending on the issue. For my animals Ive always used mctimony and they have reacted very well.
Its amazing that even if you don't explain everything ,the tiniest wrinkle in the fur can show the chiropractor  an indication of a problem. Often a quick tweak and its sorted

Just  a note as with other alternative therapy's you are supposed to have permission to treat from your vet some legal thing. Not usually a problem at all though but keeps all the boxes ticked

It might be that he is suffering with his back during the mating.  McTimoney Chiropractors can re aline the dog and is a very gentle procedure. Certainly worth trying.

Some vets in the holistic world do this themselves.

> Some vets in the holistic world do this themselves.

The other vets in town have an 'alternative therapy' vet (she works it in with her normal vetting).    At one point with Frankie, I had her do an acupuncture session with him.   She did rather push it  (the alternative therapy angle) and I'm not totally convinced, but doing this with him did no harm much as I couldn't see any significant improvement.   He went to sleep!  This was early on with him when he was having intermittent lameness.  After all the years with him, I wonder if he was 'wrong' right back then.   At the time full x-rays showed premature closure of the growth plates (radius and ulna).  But nothing re his spine.

I still think OPs situation suggests her dog feels some pain when in a certain position for an extended period.   Especially if this has only recently been what he's doing.