Someone posted on a breeding page with pictures of their dog they're looking to breed. The bitch had bad flat feet (Carpal Subluxation) so I pointed it out and said that she shouldn't be breed from and that if she is wanting to breed she'd be better off spaying her current dog and getting a prospect from a responsible breeder to start her breeding programme.

Well, I've been jumped on by others on the page defending her and saying it's her right to choose if she wanted to breed her dog. I can't wrap my head around it, have we become so infected with toxic positivity that people won't would rather defend bad breeding practices than someone being disappointed?

I absolutely agree that not all dogs should be bred from, only the best. However all dogs do have faults, even Crufts Best in Show winners so as long as the fault is not major and the owners are aware not to double up on that fault then I wouldn't necessarily discount it. Is it the pasterns that are broken down? Or just flat feet? Pasterns can be damaged or gentic, if genetic it's a really hard fault to breed out, but if the bitch damaged them jumping over a high wall or similar then that's very different.

Totally agree - I posted on FB about how over the years we've managed to get hip scores to a lower mean level and almost no failed eye tests but with all these un-tested and unregistered dogs being bred from, all that good work will quickly be undone.  Sadly the dogs will suffer as well as their silly owners who buy without doing their research.
We must continue to try and stop these people breeding from poor quality bitches - good for you Crazy Dog Lady

I have on occasion taken people to task re the result of misinformed breeding - some of the puppies in what was my main breed on THAT website are just awful.   And when it comes to mix breeding....... it doesn't do me any good but at least 'venting' makes me personally feel better.  Obviously my words are not appreciated by the advertiser................... 

I guess all that can be done about bad breeding is to ENDORSE immature puppies, but all that stops is the ability to register the with the KC.   Not that that seems to make one iota of difference re the prices being asked at the moment. 

The reality is that people don't like to be told - even if very rarely, can they be 'advised'.   It is up to each knowledge and reputable caring breeder to form a good relationship with the people who buy their young stock so if the time comes to breed, they involve you.

The dogs feet weren't from an injury and where extremely bad.

Terrible pasterns and bad feet in general, honestly this dogs front feet were crippled.

chaumsong:> I absolutely agree that not all dogs should be bred from, only the best. However all dogs do have faults, even Crufts Best in Show winners so as long as the fault is not major and the owners are aware not to double up on that fault then I wouldn't necessarily discount it.

Perhaps it's the varying responses we receive eg 'this might be acceptable, this is unacceptable, depends on the breed, depends on the gene pool. conformity is everything, you can breed with this dog as long as you..... you can't breed with this dog unless.....' and so it goes on.  I'm not being contravercial just making
the forum aware that it's no wonder people get overload.

Crazy dog lady  has anyone else been subject to criticism for pointing out some dogs shouldn't be bred from?
I pointed out exactly that. Crufts Best in Show winners should NOT be allowed faults even if they have the 'best' within their heritage and was crucified! 
(any other dog, even of the same breed is unacceptable as a Breeding Prospect to those outside of the Showring though).

Sorry to hear you had such a bad response - I just feel there is such a diverse group in the wider world that criticism doesn't go down well no matter
what beliefs you hold.

No unhealthy dog should be bred from.

This includes conformational faults that cause pain and suffering.

With the latter we have degree, as many traits typical in many breeds are actually abnormalities (originally mutations), or departures from the most efficient canine template, which are Wild Canids, like Wolf, Coyote, Jackal etc.

This is where confusion and passionate disagreements can and do occur.

I think that those breeding for a purpose and those for the pet market are poles apart unfortunately, it’s the same with KC registrations (people think they don’t need them if not showing), the same with health testing (their pet is healthy so why should they think about spending money looking for some disease they’ve never heard of).

I’m going to be controversial here and say I think that show breeders have something to play in this state of affairs. Yes they have worked hard to breed healthy, to standard dogs, but that means nothing to joe bloggs who has no interest in showing, so the minute they’re told their dog is endorsed all it says is I’m not interested in helping you. I recently read on a Facebook group someone touting their CNR dog for a compatible stud, who apparently won’t be registering her progeny because her breeder told them there won’t be a market for the puppies. Which is a load of rubbish because to get that dog in the first place was a concerted effort to breed CNR. So that’s another person who has now lost any mentoring opportunity to benefit from because of the endorsement debate. I’ll add this person supposedly had done all breed relevant screening.

Crazy dog lady by the way I’m not disagreeing with your actions at all as when I’m on Facebook pages for my breed I have to stop myself from ranting all over them with all sorts of bad faults left right and centre (not just standard faults here, basic knowledge of colour genetics which could majorly fail where merles or potentially cryptic merles are involved). But back to my original point, these people don’t care because they know someone, somewhere will not see any of those faults (if they themselves even know about them!), and there is a market for their puppies.

Brainless:  > No unhealthy dog should be bred from

You are so right and I believe in an ideal world no dog lover in the 'know' would disagree.  The problem is that although you kindly shared this statement: abnormalities (originally mutations), or departures from the most efficient canine template, which are Wild Canids, like Wolf, Coyote, Jackal etc.:  very few would understand your very relevant and well informed reasoning behind this sharing. We all continue to give our points of view despite differences of opinion
and sharing diverse beliefs gives a wider picture of 'the real world' of dog breeding/ownership and confusion/passionate disagreements do indeed occur.
In a long drawn out way - totally agree with you.

I didn't even mention any of the cosmetic faults. I stuck purely to the extreme carpal Subluxation and they problems it causes and being genetic. This poor dog was obviously crippled and people were defending breeding this bitch in future.

I thought later maybe people didn't know what carpal Subluxation actually was so decided to explain that joint was dislocated on both front legs. All but one person dropped it, the last was still defend this would be breeder. Not because they thought the dog should be bred but because they believe only her vet should be the one to say its not fit for breeding.

Yes unfortunately it’s complete ignorance on their part (and I mean everyone in those groups). Maybe next time just claim you’re a vet!!!

74Alexandra:> I think that those breeding for a purpose and those for the pet market are poles apart

So true.  When I have thoroughly vetted potential new owners, an agreement we come to is that I choose which puppy is suitable to their situation.
eg Working: bold, confident, leader.  Family Pet: lover of human interaction, playful, naughty.  No Children Owner: Quiet, loner, shy.
(I have no interest in whether my Puppies will be of Show potential)
I also believe Breeders who do not KC Register have something to hide (no excuses).
It has taken time for me to learn about Health Testing as 'rome wasn't built in a day' but I also agree that doing 100s? of tests makes no better a
life time companion.  KC Guideline Tests are the most important ones to undertake.

> <br />I’m going to be controversial here and say I think that show breeders have something to play in this state of affairs.

I have been trying to highlight this point for so long. Limiting an 'almost perfect'  on average litter of 5 once from that breed's dam during her
lifetime creates a tiny 'gene pool' in comparison to a dam who has at most, 3 litters between the age of 2 & 8 years of age with proven lines
.
I also agree Mentoring will be lost if endorsements are applied to every show ring worthy puppy which will eventually lead to the experienced
Show Ring Breeder becoming obsolete.  Very sad. Moving with the times and becoming less insular means survival - rigid beliefs will take their toll.

If we believe the silly situation of supply & demand is mad now, lets see how it is in the next decade.  There will be a huge divide between well bred puppies
and all the crossbred, untested puppies from BYB & Puppy Farmers no matter how much education is being offered at this point in time.

Thought I'd give a quick update.

So a few days after posting here some of the more experienced breeders on the page also pointed out that the bitch is extremely flat footed with weak pasterns. They also pointed out many of the comestic faults. Also turns out that neither the bitch or dog were registered with a reputable registry.

Well she declared that it didn't matter as not everyone wants a dog that meets the breed standard and is planning to breed them with the phony registry before getting (in her words) AKC registered stock later on because 'everyone starts somewhere'.

She continues to deny the problem with the bitches feet claiming its just a bad photo (I checked the only other photo of her shows the same problem and zero other pictures) yet refused to show these better pictures (that she claims she has) telling people to f off for insinuating she's lying. In her words she's going to be a responsible breeder (though clearly refusing to accept what that means).

Yes every breeder has to start somewhere but responsible breeders don't start by breeding junk. This page is filled with manly americans, so good luck trying to get quality dogs in future after breeding poor quality stock and telling many of the responsible breeders to F off.

Just so we're clear none of the breeders where being nasty to her until she refused to listen and started being nasty first.  Nearly all of them made a point of saying though their sure their wonderful pets and she loves them they shouldn't be bred from. Some of them also offered to help her getting another dog that would be more suitable (as long as she agreed to keep these two as just pets) but that was also refused.

Just to point out I know my wording is harsh here. I've not said anything to her since I posted originally and certainly would say she's going to breed junk to her face. I'd find a diplomatic way to put it. I'm just angry ranting.

Crazy dog lady:> Thought I'd give a quick update.

Haven't visited the site, read the posts or have knowledge of this person but advertising her dogs and having the resonses you've reported obviously answers your
question that yes 'others are rebuffed when pointing out faults'.

I am not defending her in ANY way but as humans it is a case of when under attack we choose fight or flyte and this person has obviously decided to fight!

During my career in man management I learned that it is often how you approach someone when raising an issue which could create conflict.
ie I called it the 'poo' sandwich - you start with a positive - fill in with the negative thing you want to portray - end with a positive way to help.
It is amazing how people will then, perhaps not agree but are more likely to listen and respond in a more receptive way and at least take a bit of
criticism on board.

Telling them in no uncertain terms that they are wrong, ignorant, irresponsible or 'shouldn't be doing what ever it is' will only ever bring one type of response
which is what you have been subject to and everyone else jumping on the 'band waggon' has only exasabated the situation.

Using disgusting  language should not be allowed on the site in question, lying re being breed registered and admitting to using phoney documentation are
surely life banning offences?  Perhaps reporting your findings to the site would be the easiest solution.

I've not read all that's happened here so may be way off the mark, but re poor breeding stock - all too often a naive individual (or one breeding for income only) will take their bitch to their vet who, not having full knowledge of good or bad points in every breed (particularly bad points that have been cropping up recently and which need stamping out), will say the bitch is healthy so of course go ahead and breed her.   The cynic might even suggest poor stock with problems = kerching if the puppies are sold locally.  Sad innit.

But people really don't like to be told by people they don't know especially.   Which is where the breeder/new owner relationship is so important.   It should be the knowledgeable, experienced breeder who should be mentoring new owner/breeders.

> because 'everyone starts somewhere'.

I hear this so often as an excuse for poor breeding or breeding your dog without doing any research before hand. One fb group post was from someone who had maited their bitch, it was a planned maiting and after the maiting they came on the group and asked I kid you not 'how long are dogs pregnant for?' People assumed it had been an accidental maiting but nope they wanted puppies so left their two dogs together without even knowing how long a dog is pregnant for! When it was suggested by people it may be best to not go ahead with the litter and use the extra time to get health testing and learn more about breeding the excuses of 'we all start somewhere ' was their reason why it's fine.

Completely agree JoStockbridge. When I wanted to start breeding I researched anything and everything available. Scoured the internet, fb breeding groups, bought books. I knew what health testing was needed for my breed and as much as I could about the process of breeding before actually going through it. Of course I learnt a lot along the way and I’ll be learning for the rest of my life but why start knowing nothing when there’s so much easily accessible information. You wouldn’t take a driving test without learning to drive would you? Same thing really. It’s lives we are taking into our hands so it’s hugely important to get as much of it right as possible from the off.

JoStockbridge:> <br />I hear this so often as an excuse for poor breeding or breeding your dog without doing any research before hand.

I don't disagree at all with the principle that being informed is the best way to start but rightly or wrongly most who breed within an area whether horses, rabbits,
goats or birds don't consider every aspect of responsibility unless they mix within circles who have gained knowledge over time and have become experts in that
particular field.

Everyone has to learn and start somewhere - it's the way of the world.

> When it was suggested by people it may be best to not go ahead with the litter and use the extra time to get health testing done

I'm just not sure what the owner of the dam would do with any puppies produced as part of their learning curve?

Such a complex situation especially when as you say   > One fb group post was from someone who had maited their bitch, it was a planned maiting and after the maiting they came on the group and asked I kid you not 'how long are dogs pregnant for?

Shocking but oh so common.

masajackrussell:  > You wouldn’t take a driving test without learning to drive would you?

Oh come on now...sorry masajackrussell.  It's nothing like learning to drive....it is the building of knowledge and ongoing learning as you stated and
something we are all doing as Breeders.  You are right about lives being in our hands but medical/genetic science evolves over time and is a constant
catch up just as Forum Members being unaware of new DNA Tests introduced for their Breed and when advised by CD site Admin had to admit they
needed to investigate the new info just a few months ago.

Driving is also building knowledge. U do that before taking a test and then u contiune to learn and improve * hopefully ) once u have passed your test.
If u have ever done the advanced driving course u will see how they consider the test as a start point to learning more .
So the example masajack gave does give u the idea of what she meant imo.
Perhaps we could ask brainless to explain again how long it took her before she first bred and the learning she did . It was a great example

furriefriends:> Perhaps we could ask brainless to explain again how long it took her before she first bred

I believe Brainless will respond to the original thread if she wishes to without any references to Driving Tests hopefully.

Looking through the website provided by Brainless I am well aware of the time it takes to become as prefessional a breeder
as Brainless is which only strengthens the message that you can't be totally 'trained' in anything unless you learn over time.

Sorry furriefriends.  I am not getting into this toing & froing with yourself & masajackrussell anymore.

> It's nothing like learning to drive.

Of course it is. You don't learn everything there is to know about driving straight off and you continue to learn and improve after you have passed your test. You can't take a test with zero knowledge of how to drive and to start breeding without doing as much research as possible first is lazy and irresponsible IMO.

> just as Forum Members being unaware of new DNA Tests introduced for their Breed and when advised by CD site Admin had to admit they<br />needed to investigate the new info just a few months ago.

Yes and that is the continuation of learning that I mentioned - should they have been necessary upon further in depth investigation they would have been undertaken. They were very new tests as well that didn't take years to find out about either. As soon as the information was picked up it was acted upon. Constant learning and improvement comes from keeping up to date on a regular basis not once every ten years or so to then say I didn't know. That's not responsible breeding. Some Forum Members/breeders, whatever you want to call them, still don't do all or any of the testing relevant to their breed even though they are aware of it. That to me is just unacceptable.

> I am not getting into this toing & froing with yourself & masajackrussell anymore.

Stop replying to posts that weren't directed to you (like mine) then.

Spot on furriefriends

What a carry on...maybe just a agree to stop?

I don’t understand the “we all have to start somewhere” mentality. Yes, of course you could learn “on the job” so to speak, by breeding any old rubbish with no idea what you’re doing. And you’ll learn, sure.

But these are LIVES we’re talking about. We should respect them enough to give our puppies the best chance possible to be happy and healthy, and learn as much as possible to minimise the mistakes we make.

It’s like pretty much any complex skill really. I don’t know much about driving, but when the world is normal I occasionally work demonstrating board games at conventions. I’m pretty good at teaching the rules of games to strangers by now and most people will listen and ask questions if they need clarification and get on fine. But sometimes I’ll get someone who is visibly impatient and stops me a short way into my explanation, insisting that they learn better by doing and would prefer to “just play”.

This impatient person inevitably has to ask a million questions during the game and interrupts the flow. They get halfway through and complain because I didn’t tell them an important rule they needed to know in order to win. And inevitably they don’t have a good time and think the game is bad because they couldn’t take the time to learn it properly first.

Great analogy silverleaf. Winging it is just not the way to start out with lives at stake.

surely anyone who is ment to care for their dog would think maybe before I try to breed her I should at least learn the basics. I don't think anyone expects a new breeder to be an expert but to have done no research into the process and just wing it with their girl is just putting her at extra risk. Hell when I started breeding mice I looked it up first.

I have to agree.

I cannot imagine doing anything without learning about it first.

Especially in this day and age how can anyone be ignorant!!!

If you have discovered there are 'breeds' of the animal your interested in, then surely you know there are Governing bodies/Clubs that establish requirements.

I managed to do this in the 1980's with just the Library for research, joined the Governing body, attended shows, chose the breed, and joined the breed club.

When going from Rabbits to dogs I did the same. Researched breeds, contacted KC, who gave me breed club details, found a breeder, after visiting owners of the breed.

I joined the breed club bought breed books and club journals.

Started showing, and from knowledge gathered from Club membership knew that Hip Scoring was desireable (whether breeding or not).

Sadly I lost my bitch at just 3.1/2 and now a single parent with 2 pre schooler realised that I needed.a less high maintenance breed, with a less needy and sensitive character.

So new breed chosen, breeder/pup located through breed club, club joined and research begun.

I wasn't in a position to show until my bitch was nearly 2 when my toddler reached Nursery age and could be left with Grandparents for the day.

I had established regular contact with the breeder and the owner of her sire, first by letter, then by phone.  They were very encouraging, and delighted that I was eager to learn.

I devoured breed books, bought decades back issues of club publications.

In those days we only had Hip Scoring and Clinical Eye testing.

The club journals published the results for all testing, along with the other BRS data from the KC.

I bred my first litter in 1995, still pre computer access, which for me came in 2000.

Through the club articles I was aware that we historically had two eye conditions that occured, rarely and kept that way through careful pedigree research.

Fortunately in 2008 it was established, when a case cropped up that could be tested, that we had the prcd-PRA variant of PRA, and all breeding stock has been tested since.

In 2013 - 4.research in Finland was ongoing for Glaucoma, and thanks to Social Media 2 6 year old dogs that had sadly developed the condition were able to provide research samples.

The rest of us supplied samples too, and the gene was identified, and commercial test came in 2015, though many of us already had research results, and we can also test for rarely occuring short limb dwarfism).

I fail to see in this computer age, how anyone could be ignorant of the health conditions, and available testing in their breed by the time they consider breeding????

Thank you for your post Brainless I was hoping you would share the research you did before considering breeding as I have alwasy thought it was a fantastic example . It is shows f what can and should be done to gain knowledge before jumping in,
After all these are lives you are breeding not inanimate objects that can be discarded if mistakes are made without a second thought

Brainless I would like to officially elevate you to the status of utter legend - perfect example that there is no excuse to wing it especially in today’s technological advancement.

Quite agree

FWIW I did it all, some might say, the wrong way round - although having said that, it gave me time to learn about my chosen breed so come the time when I felt I'd like to produce a puppy I'd bred to take into the ring, rather than continue to show those bred by somebody else, I was equipped to do.   We had our first hound, a male followed around 10 months later by our second, another male.   The second, bought to show and pick of litter, I did show after hopping the Pond.  That was when I eventually made the decision to start breeding, and so, looking back to the UK, I bought my foundation bitch intending to mate her to my second male.  She was chosen by somebody who knew me well and what I needed.    By the time she was old enough to take her first litter, it was 7 years on and so having shown her to her Champ. title like the second male, I realised my plan to mate her to him, wasn't right.

The message is it has to take time, research, being around the 'right people' and so on, before starting a recognised decent bloodline.

I don’t think that’s the wrong way round at all mamabas. You did your research took your time and bred responsibly.

> You did your research took your time and bred responsibly.

Exactly knowledge, your own, or initially/additionally your various mentors, is key to any endeavour.

I think I’m on the same group as you Jo Stockbridge, or of not I certainly see the same thing time and time again! What age do puppies stop needing milk from mum, shall I give them weetabix, puppies are 6 weeks do I need to worm them etc....the list goes on and I am continually in shock. Forget health testing, these people don’t even know the basics! It is for this reason only and the good of dogs in general I do think the rules on licensing need clarifying. It’s not ok to breed puppies to sell when you have no knowledge of basic breeding essentials.

> I don’t think that’s the wrong way round at all mamabas

I don’t think so either. Plenty of people start with a dog and then decide they want a bitch for breeding later on.

74Alexandra:> It is for this reason only and the good of dogs in general I do think the rules on licensing need clarifying.

The new licensing laws as of October 2018 require far more knowledge of animal welfare on the Breeders part than ever before: quite rightly so. Adhering to the practices
required is the most important thing to Inspectors who visit premises regularly.  Stipulations are detailed and relevant to today's responsibilities as a reputable Breeder.

In my experience of visiting certain premises within Wales, I found it heartbreaking that individual unlicensed breeders with Puppies for sale kept their animals in such appauling
conditions.

Visiting four licenced Breeders within the same area had excellent premises, great knowledge of their breed, intermittant but ongoing breeding programmeswith their Animals
welfare at the top of their list.

Some outlets visited were 'frequent advertisers' which means they had more than 2 litters per year which, by law they should have been licensed but would never make the grade.

Many Individuals I contacted by phone or email ie 'one off Breeders' had no idea of the Breed they were advertising and were only interested in when my deposit would
be made.

We then have those Breeders who have one litter every year or couple of years who have no checks, licence or any interest in Health Testing and have a litter every time
they feel the need for an expensive holiday.

Dog Breeding is so diverse and IMO anyone who has a litter of Puppies throughout the UK should be Licensed. So totally agree that the whole Licensing Question should be
addressed/clarified.

Couldn’t agree more. Like everything, there is good and bad at every level and I personally don’t know why SOME licensed breeders are bandied about as being commercial when in fact they meet more standards than an unlicensed home breeder.

74Alexandra:> licensed breeders are bandied about as being commercial when in fact they meet more standards than an unlicensed home breeder.

Hear! Hear! Tarring everyone with the same brush or white washing all at the other side of the coin is very unfair and can be both misleading and
dangerously near slanderous on people's reputations.

It is just so sad that there is such divide between 'doggy' groups who do their very best with the knowledge they have gained but become labelled
if not as knowledgable as some others.

If Licensing was required for everyone who breeds a litter then those who don't follow the law and hold a License would be quickly identified  through
these same sites who are deemed supporters of bad practice.  They could be a perfect 'highlighter' of such.

Yes. My parents’ dog came from a top show breeder who is licensed and has three breeds. But no one would dare say she’s a commercial breeder! Good and bad in everything. The dog breeding reform group is lobbying for everyone breeding a litter to be licensed and other key welfare improvements within that too.

74 Alexandra:> The dog breeding reform group is lobbying for everyone breeding a litter to be licensed and other key welfare improvements

Thank you for this info.  I had no idea. Absolutely delighted that this grp is taking such a huge issue on board and if you have any updates
on their progress/state of play with their fight and also how I could get involved with this cause I'd be vey appreciative. X

They have a website that explains everything, quite a high profile group behind it :) it includes health testing and better awareness for COI etc, as well as general welfare improvements.

The trouble with licensing for anyone breeding is the one size fits all.

Most of us who breed as a result of our canine hobbies and passion for a breed cannot comply, nor would wish to comply with licensing requirements appropriate to a regular business.

Someone who owns dogs as companions, show or sport dogs, at most when breeding two or fewer litters is a breeder for 8 weeks at a time, sporadically, and the premises and dogs revert to home and pets the rest of the time..

Their home is not a commercial/business premises, and their fascilities for a litter are adhoc and temporary.

As said before many homes would not be allowed to run a business, or able or want to have change of use.

There would be potential issues with Commercial rates, Business Insurance, waste disposal.

Impractical Requirements for accomodation, segregation, heating etc.

Sorry I was not wishing to commandeer this thread to discuss licensing. The fact is that many councils are interpreting in different ways. I am not saying this about you in any way, but many people who have the welfare of their dogs at heart still do not meet welfare standards set out within that process (for example, health and daily enrichment). I live in a borough where one litter unless you are keeping them all demands a license. Yes it creates extra red tape, but it does at least show buyers I was willing to go through the process. I’m due to submit my application this year. I have just one entire girl who would be classed as a breeding bitch, who lives in the home. The dog breeding reform group I understand does not wish to create more barriers for good breeders, simply to discourage those having a litter “just because” unless they can prove they meet those standards of care and welfare. So I don’t think we can argue with that position.

Also my understanding of the process having researched and gained advice from some helpful FB groups is that concerning things like planning, business rates, waste disposal etc, they have to approach reasonably and there are different needs for home vs kennels. So as a home breeder I’m fine to show I double bag the waste and it goes into my green bin just as nappies do. Business rates and planning don’t apply.

Re the temporary nature, that’s also acceptable but you just need to outline what your plan is. But it needs to meet certain requirements for example having access to outside. And if it’s in your kitchen needs to be big enough to be a certain distance away from food preparation. All sensible and definitely achievable.

It was definitely my concern the process was full of restrictions and would be unfair, but that’s definitely not the impression I now have :)

Licensing has many different levels of Breeder depending on individual circumstances;

Example given by Alexandra74 re housing, waste management, food preparation (storing & preparing) etc is a basic requirememt by someone who has 1 Litter per year.
(required within her borough)

Example of a Breeder with 10 dogs, all of the above but daily record keeping of housing temperature, cleaning schedules, feeding timetables. water testing, proven use
of waste management company, required bedding, type of food & water bowls used, suitable excercise space, breeding programmes a year in advance and regular inspection.
and so it goes on (too many disciplines to mention)

Further examples of everything in between are available from your Local Authority so not 'one size fits all' by any matter of means and costs differ hugely to be Licenced.

> Their home is not a commercial/business premises, and their fascilities for a litter are adhoc and temporary.<br /><br />As said before many homes would not be allowed to run a business, or able or want to have change of use.<br /><br />There would be potential issues with Commercial rates, Business Insurance, waste disposal.<br /><br />Impractical Requirements for accomodation, segregation, heating etc

Enthusiasts/Hobby Breeders wouldn't be subject to the whole programme of Licensing and as Alexandra74's example states - it would be totally relative to Breeder's situation as to whether a Licence would be granted or not.  Those who follow Animal Welfare Guidelines anyway would have nothing to fear.

If there are authoritive rules in place then surely that is a starting point if anyone wants to breed a Litter(s) as a way of compiling individuals taking responsibilty for their Animal(s)?

Many on the Forum are totally anti Licensing and I just don't understand why?  What are the reasons NOT to?

Thanks so much for your helpful insight :)

Yes I am certainly happy to go through the process as it does at least provide extra confidence to puppy buyers and then they have other protections in place too - not nice to talk about dogs as products but they have more rights if the puppy has congenital defects etc.