I have deliberately started a new thread on this subject because while I don't want to upset the breeder who had a bad experience with her recent litter, I also don't want others who may not be as experienced as some, to wait, and lose puppies.   I speak from a terrible time I had with my UK Champion bitch, as already posted, when after A VET waited, we lost 5 of the 9 puppies in that litter.   The 5th being too weak to survive.  I learnt afterwards that this vet (who wasn't my usual one at that practice who was away) no longer did surgery.  At no point was I warned about that!

As always with mine, who did go into secondary inertia more often than not, I didn't let them go over by more than 2 days from the first mating, without involving my vet at the time.   I'd take them in to be examined, and usually x-rayed to see the status of the puppies and then, depending on how we both felt, and the condition of mum (cervex), move to either a shot of oxytocin to see if that got things moving, or go straight for a C.Section.  Further, if there was any sign of prolongued strong contractions, for more than 1 hour without seeing a puppy born (every delivery), then for sure, I'd be off to the vet.

As for delivery en route - I always advised taking a box with a heat pad in it, and whelping equipment, in case things progressed during the journey to the vet - and btw, taking the bitch for a car ride was a well known 'trick' amongst older breeders, to get things moving.

Message - despite what others have experienced, every delivery (even from the same bitch) is an individual event so to wait isn't necessarily the advice I'd give, in general - which is why it helps to have an experienced mentor within the breed, on hand.

I agree completely Mamabas. An experienced mentor is an essential part of the whelping kit so to speak! And I agree on the wait part to. For me it’s a bit like when we have to make the decision to send our dogs over the rainbow bridge. Much better a day to early than a day too late. Better to be safe than sorry and if that means more costs incurred from vet trips then that’s the way it is. The priority is getting bitch and pups through safely at whatever cost. Luckily I’ve not had any problems but I am not naive enough to think I will never have any.

Totally agree someone (if not the breeder) needs to be experienced enough to see if things look not right.

Ideally someone experienced in your breed, but failing that someone (including vets) who have experience of normal natural whelping.

Sadly many vets lack experience in this regard and will quote longer gestation length.

I think Vets should avail themselves of quick progesterone kits that are accurate enough for reverse Progesterone testing, which will show if pups are cooked/overcooked. Ultrasound can also help.

Nothing beats knowing your bitch.

My Lexi on her third litter produced her first pup jumping back into whelping box after going for a pee.

An hour later she was in a blind panic, and I knew vet was needed. We had an oxytocin jab, after 20 minutes, nothing, and moved to C section. Malpresentation of a pup. Previous litters delivered easily.

I knew something wasn't right even though the books say it's OK to wait for up to 3 hours.

In fact we lost 4 pups from her daughter as emergency vet practice would not give oxytocin until 3 hours had passed, and I knew 2 hours was too long for her. Also she was huge and overstretched, so labour less effective.

I'm an Avidog breeder so I follow the Whelping Rules laid out by Avidog and consult with expert breeders in the Avidog FB group if I need more input.

It's not usually an easy decision, unless you know for certain the date of ovulation. A C-section is to be avoided if at all possible: healthy bitches do die on the table during elective C-sections. Temperature-taking 2 or 3 times a day for a week before the estimated due date can be a very helpful indicator as to when labour is starting - but as all bitches are different, this isn't a fail-safe. If the unborn whelps are still visibly active and the bitch behaving pretty much as normal then the chances of it being time to intervene are very low.
One of my bitches had her first litter text-book style 63 days after her single mating, on day 13 of her season. For her second litter she wasn't ready to mate (and experienced stud dogs weren't interested) till day 18 of her season, so we mated then and on day 20. She didn't whelp until day 66 from her first mating (day 68 from the second) but I was the only one in any signs of distress!
Any vet who offers oxytocin before the bitch's cervix is fully dilated (best demonstrated by the birth of a puppy as most vets have very little experience of natural whelping) should be struck off.

"Any vet who offers oxytocin before the bitch's cervix is fully dilated (best demonstrated by the birth of a puppy as most vets have very little experience of natural whelping) should be struck off. "

Agreed - and I think I covered that ................

"I'd take them in to be examined, and usually x-rayed to see the status of the puppies and then, depending on how we both felt, and the condition of mum (cervex), move to either a shot of oxytocin to see if that got things moving, or go straight for a C.Section. "

I chose the vet I used, depending on where I lived so I could trust them.    And when we did move, I asked local breeders who they used.

Any vet who offers oxytocin before the bitch's cervix is fully dilated should be struck off.
Totally agree.

Indeed you did cover this point.  Oxytocin is a very important drug within the Veterinary Profession and in my experience - thank goodness it is such
a powerful birthing option however, unlike the the drug used during induction pregnancy in a human which acts slowly, Oxytocin acts rapidly so putting
forced pressure on an unopened cervix is both a painful experience and a very dangerous one to boot for both Mum & Puppies..... Vet exam is vital
in making a an informed decision.

If the cervix hasn't dilated, Mum is in distress & Xrays show a complication then a C section is the only option IMO.  C Section is viewed as an emergency
and should not be seen as selective/optional.

No Breeder has a crystal ball, experience of evey possible circumstance of birth nor has the knowledge on when to react to every complication.
It's a risk we all take if wishing to Breed from our Dogs.

> Oxytocin is a very important drug within the Veterinary Profession and in my experience - thank goodness it is such<br />a powerful birthing option however, unlike the the drug used during induction pregnancy in a human which acts slowly,

Just for info. Manufactured oxytocin is actually used sometimes to induce labour in humans and also to speed up delivery of the placenta.

masajackrussell:> <br />Just for info. Manufactured oxytocin is actually used sometimes to induce labour in humans and also to speed up delivery of the placenta.

Yes: Administered intrevenously at a steady rate to induce labour over a long period of time - not cause such powerful contractions that the cervix bursts!  Delivering the placenta comes through an already stretched cervix.

I know. Was just saying the same drug is used at times. Your previous post made it out that it wasn’t.

Hence the just for info at the beginning.