Hi folks....

I'm new to this forum xx

I have a question though, I bought my wee dog 3 years ago the lady was lovely and my wee dog is just perfect.

Later down the line I realised it was a mother and daughter who shared the interest of the pups, breeding showing... however I asked the mother who I paid the deposit to, conversed on the phone with and went to her house to buy my pup... if she could lift the endorsement, she said no. I did not sign a contract.

I mailed this woman for a while showing pictures of my baby and also discussed the other wee pup that this woman decided to keep.

However me being me *yes I know pure stupidity* didn't bother looking at KC records, put everything into a drawer and because I decided to challenge the endorsement I then transferred ownership to myself... it was then I realised that it was the woman I bought the pups from daughter who was the registered owner of the dog.

I've never met nor spoken to this girl...

Dies anyone have any advice...

Thanks

If the breeder (mother or daughter) won't lift the endorsement, there's not a lot you can do.   Depending on the terms of the Sale Contract you signed or were made aware of at the time of the purchase.

Breeders put endorsements on immature stock for very good reason - to protect the breed, and their bloodlines.   It was part of the Code of Ethics my main Breed Club had.   It makes perfect sense to me, but the purchaser should be aware of any conditions relating to the puppy they buy, and the endorsements.

If you didn’t sign a contract it’s my understanding that the KC will lift them. You need to have been made aware of them at the time and agreed to them, and signed a contract so that the breeder has proof that you have read and understood. Otherwise they were not correctly placed on the dog.

The kennel club requires that the puppy is in the physical possession of the person placing the endorsements (it wasn’t) and you have a written agreement (you don’t). It has to be signed and dated by you.

You have to apply to the KC to have them removed. Good luck getting anything out of the KC for anything at the moment as there are huge backlogs for everything.

It’s all on here under ‘information about kennel club endorsements’:

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/dog-breeding/first-time-breeders/rearing-and-raising-your-puppies

>The kennel club requires that the puppy is in the physical possession of the person placing the endorsements (it wasn’t)

Actually it sounds as if the endorsements were placed when the pup was first registered, but registration wasn't transferred until recently, when the owner decided to challenge the endorsement.

You can ask the KC to lift the endorsements on the basis you weren't made aware of them and never signed a contract.

If you're going to breed if the kennel club dies rule  your favour, then ensure that you know all of the health testing relavent to your breed and get them done with good results

Thank you for you're advice...  I will take a look at the link later... xx

> Actually it sounds as if the endorsements were placed when the pup was first registered, but registration wasn't transferred until recently, when the owner decided to challenge the endorsement.

I’m not sure what you mean in relation to what I wrote.
The breeder according to the kennel club is the daughter (OP says they are the registered owner), but the mother had physical possession of the puppies. So the puppies were not in the possession of the person placing the endorsements, that’s the part I was getting at.

It's just a bit confusing... to be honest now that I'm just trying to figure things out the mother had the dogs in her house, and they were registered in the  girls name... maybe the mother had registered her quota already....

To be honest I really don't know...

All I know is the breeders name on the registration isn't who I bought the pup from and I went to the mother's home to buy my baby...

No contract whatsoever...

I'll mail the KC and explain things to them and see

And thank you for all the replies and advice

Xx

Hi Tectona, you are correct....

I am now the registered owner of my baby, albeit I've only recently transferred the ownership to myself xx

Of course mother and daughter probably lived together.

So pups were in breeders possesion at time of sale, even if Mum handled the correspindence.

You should have signed 2 copies of a contract or seperate document explaining the endorsement and you should both have had a copy.

If they do not have a copy then the KC will most likely rule in your favour.

There may be a goid reason why they do not wish to lift the endorsement?

Did they say why?

It could be that your dog is not suitable for breeding, and it would be unwise to do so?

If at all possible staying on good terms with the breeder is preferable, as usually they would be your mentor.

They would have the knowledge needed to make good breeding decisions.

>The breeder according to the kennel club is the daughter (OP says they are the registered owner), but the mother had physical possession of the puppies. So the puppies were not in the possession of the person placing the endorsements, that’s the part I was getting at.

Many mothers and daughters live together at the same address.

Hi....

No mum and daughter do not live together.

When I asked (the mother) if the endorsement could be lifted I did suggest that I would look to her for guidance and she mailed me back with her reasons as to why it wasn't to be lifted... but now I have realised that her daughter was the  breeder why was the mother saying no....

There was definitely no contracts.

As far as I know there is  no reason why I can't breed my baby, she's in perfect health and if I ever decided to I would most certainly make an appointment with my vet and make sure the vet gave my baby a clean bill of health...

However I was told of the mother when I asked to lift the endorsement if my girl had puppies I was to sell them without papers

Xx

> she mailed me back with her reasons as to why it wasn't to be lifted..

So what were her reasons?

And yes without endorsements being lifted if you bred then pups would not have papers.

> I would most certainly make an appointment with my vet and make sure the vet gave my baby a clean bill of health...

When we speak of Health testing, we do not normally mean what a GP Vet could see on a check up.

What is meant is Hip scoring for Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Scoring for signs of Elbow Dysplasia, Eye testing for signs of inherited eye disease. These are specialist assessments.

Also there are now many DNA tests that can identify inherited diseases in many breeds.

To breed responsibly these should be undertaken for both parents to reduce the chances of producing unhealthy puppies.

If you go onto the Kennel Club Health Results tool https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/health-test-results-finder/ and put in the names of your dogs parents you should see what health tests they have had.

Also you can put in your dogs name to see if she is hereditary clear for any DNA tests both parents are clear for.

I'm afraid it makes me very uneasy to hear that the KC will so easily over-rule a breeder re endorsements.   And for sure, a basic health check from a vet is only a small part of whether any bitch (or dog) should be bred from, especially if a breeder has put endorsements in place.   Of course the buyer is required to be made aware that the puppy carries endorsements at the point of sale but as said, many good breeders put endorsements on IMMATURE stock for good reason.  At the very least, that should bring the owner back for the breeder for him/her to assess the quality of the puppy once an adult, and to help with the choice of stud dog to use, plus an agreement to lift the endorsement.  Otherwise what's the point of a breeder putting endorsement(s) on a puppy?    Not that that stops anybody from breeding that animal - just that the puppies can't be KC registered ... although going by Pets4 adverts, that means the puppies can't be sold for as much, if not more, than a KC reg'd puppy these days.

http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/yorkshire-terrier

Looking down the list here you need to have the mri scan, DNA tests and also BVA eye test.
Patella check too.

https://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=89071  

U may also like to read this information rasing q and a about breeding

They won't lift them if properly placed, but that means they need to inform purchaser in writing and give and keep a copy signed by both, and it needs to be placed while still in their possesion (before sale).

I agree I have always endorsed all my litters and have on occasion forgotten to lift on my own, and had a phone call from KC when registering a litter, lol

> <br />I agree I have always endorsed all my litters and have on occasion forgotten to lift on my own, and had a phone call from KC when registering a litter, lol

LOL indeed!!    I didn't endorse those puppies we kept however.  Otherwise I'd probably be doing the same (forgetting to lift the endorsement)

> that means the puppies can't be sold for as much, if not more, than a KC reg'd puppy these days.

I WISH there wasn't a time restriction re editing comments

That should have been 'that means the puppies CAN be sold for as much, if not more, than a KC reg'd puppy these days'.   Oops

> Many mothers and daughters live together at the same address.

You’re right, I guess I (correctly, albeit accidentally) assumed that since OP had never spoken to or met her that they were not there.

Hi Mamabas...

I agree wholeheartedly with what you say...

I did ask when I requested the endorsement to be lifted for her guidance and that she could choose a stud for my baby....

Seemingly the dog was sold as a pet not to be bred from later.... but then I was told  its okay to have a litter anyway as I won't be able to register the pups....

I've no plans to breed from me baby just now...

Xx

Hi there and thank you so much for the information given... I really do appreciate it.

At the moment I do not have any plans to breed  my baby, but if and when I do decide I will make sure that I do it correctly and no corners will be cut....

At this stage I was just wanting to sort out the endorsement, if the KC favours myself then thats great, if they favour the breeder then albeit, at least I tried...

I was told that the dog was sold to me as a pet, not to be bred from later on.... but it was equally okay to get a litter anyway, the pups won't be registered...

I'm just a wee bit fed up....

Breeding properly, with aiming for the best oucome for the health of the pups, and therefore the good of the breed, the pups new owners, and the bitch is not a simple matter.

Sadly too many people just put two dogs together without much thought or knowledge, and are lucky if problems are not immiediately apparent.

Sadly often later the owners find they have health and/or temperament/behavioural problems, many of which can now with not a little knowledge and expense, be avoided.

Out of interest have you looked up the parents Kennel Club health results on the Kennel Club link I posted, for the Health test finder tool??

Rather confused as to why the breeder ie the mother is saying dog was sold as pet only with endorsements but its OK to breed without them being lifted .
surely she didn't really mean it would be OK?

Hi Barbara....

I absolutely agree with what you're saying and sadly I have seen what you describe.. as you say people should be aiming for the health of the pups and the good of the breed...

Yes I've just run the parents names through the link you have given me and I don't seem to see anything about tests that my baby's parents nay have had...

Xx

>Rather confused as to why the breeder ie the mother is saying dog was sold as pet only with endorsements but its OK to breed without them being lifted surely she didn't really mean it would be OK?>

She did.... I have it in writing ~sigh~ I  was even asked if I had a stud in mind....

I'm afraid it makes me very uneasy to hear that the KC will so easily over-rule a breeder re endorsements.

They don't. This is almost an urban legend. You will hear many stories of "My friend's sister in law's hairdresser had the KC remove endorsements on a puppy they'd bred" but you'd very seldom hear a breeder tell you it happened to them.

The rules are quite simple. Endorsements must be put into writing (doesn't even have to be a contract) and signed by the buyer to acknowledge they are aware of them. If there is nothing in writing, the KC may lift them -but then there is nobody to blame but the breeder themselves.

> I've just run the parents names through the link you have given me and I don't seem to see anything about tests that my baby's parents nay have had..

That's dissapointing, as someone previously posted both parents should have had several DNA tests (or be Clear by parentage), and should have been MRI scanned for the painfull skull issue.

There is no official Kennel Club scheme for Pattellas, but there is an internationally accepted grading which your vet can assess, and copies of vets assessment of the parents results can be given to puppy owners.
https://www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk/orthopaedic/patellar-luxation/

"As far as I know there is  no reason why I can't breed my baby, she's in perfect health and if I ever decided to I would most certainly make an appointment with my vet and make sure the vet gave my baby a clean bill of health..."

Just replying to this part of your post - you are aware that a vet assessment is not the only 'health testing' required for breeding dogs?  If your dog is 3 already, you have missed the best window for testing her hips and elbows anyway, as this should be done at a much younger age.  I don't know your breed, but think you need to do a bit more research on what recommended health tests there are in your breed - eye tests, DNA panels etc. before considering breeding.  Please don't just jump on the bank wagon of the people breeding their dogs just because they can during this Covid situation.  The goal is to bring into the world pups who have a good chance of living healthy, happy lives.  I'm not really surprised your breeder is wary about the idea of you breeding right now when the welfare considerations relating to all these hastily bred puppies during Covid is such an issue.  You will get a more receptive response if you show you have done the research about health testing and the challenges involved in breeding and raising a litter.  There are some free courses about the latter on the Kennel Club website.

>Just replying to this part of your post - you are aware that a vet assessment is not the only 'health testing' required for breeding dogs?

Hi  yes I  am aware to be fair that was just an off the cuff statement.... at the moment as I've said already I am not going to breed my baby at the moment....

>I'm not really surprised your breeder is wary about the idea of you breeding right now when the welfare considerations relating to all these hastily bred puppies during Covid is such an issue. 

To be fair I asked the mother (who isn't the breeder a year ago and again just recently.... and she's certainly not adverse to the fact about me breeding my baby as she told me that if I did the pups would be sold without papers....

Covid is exactly WHY I have NO intention of breeding my baby just now.... 

The original post was merely to enquire about the endorsement being lifted... but thank you for all the information and links about breeding... If and when I ever go down this line the information you guys have given me is invaluable

Xx

I would just point out if yours is the toy breed mentioned higher up then if your bitch is already 3 years old you have left it rather late to think.of breeding a first litter.

Due to their small size most small Toy breeds would be bred from before 2 years of age when the bones are more flexible, and whelping is easier, with less likelihood of complications.

Breeding from Toy breeds has a higher chance of difficulties than with more 'natural' breeds.

Most breeder who endorce won't lift them until the dog has had all the recommended health testing not before. As if they lifted first and the owner then decided not to test the breeder wouldn't be able to do anything. If you haven't don't the tests yet could this perhaps be a reason your girls breeder has refused? If you didn't perhaps sending them a message listing the health testing you would do and ask if you get them done with good results will they lift.

This breeder has said it was ok to breed and just not register the pups.  The op said she had that in writing
It was one of the things I found rather strange

>This breeder has said it was ok to breed and just not register the pups.  The op said she had that in writing

It was one of the things I found rather strange

As strange as it seems that's what happened, even stranger bearing in mind I've just realised that she isn't the breeder...

If i where in your position I would.consider very carefully if u want to breed particularly given some of answers here from very experienced breeders and considering your dogs age as Barbara says
.If its not something u are going to do in the end I would forget the whole thing and enjoy your dog.

Its going to take a lot of time and possibly stress to sort something out u may not ever need

I agree.

If I was the Original Poster, and having developed more of a serious interest in her breed after owning her 'baby', I would aim rather than breeding from her, to buy a pup from a breeder who health tests and would be willing to mentor them into responsible preservation breeding.

I would for a start apply to join the National and.Regional breed clubs.

Club publications will have a lot of educational material (I started with purchasing the preceding 10 years of Club Annual Journals, then bought further back issues and studied the breeds history and development).

Once Club events start up again, attend and view the dogs that appeal most, see who bred them, check the Health status of the individuals that produce them.

Get chatting to breeders and exhibitors.

You have time to choose a good breeder and wait for a promising puppy from which you could breed Healthy quality puppies to be proud of.

It does seem that the endorsements were not placed properly and as such would likely be lifted by the KC however, as others have said, the fact that the breeder is saying breed but don’t register is not a good thing. As they did no health testing either I would agree that you are better off enjoying your dog as a pet and looking for another puppy from fully health tested parents.

(Tagging on to the end.) To be fair, if it is the toy breed mentioned, then the KC website doesn't list any health tests, the ABS requirements/recommendatios doesn't list any and the main breed club website doesn't mention any. Not knowing anything about the breed I looked up this year's Crufts results for them and put in a random selection of dogs and bitches that were UK bred/owned, and none of them had any health tests listed. So it's probably a case of patella checking by your own vet, which won't be listed of course. The BVA also is NOT listing any eye tests for the breed so even if they were done, again they wouldn't be published.

I do however agree that to consider a first litter for a toy bitch aged over 3 is very risky.

That’s interesting Goldmali - I was not aware of that at all.

So where did the MRI and DNA.testing info for the breed come from that Suejaw posted????

So where did the MRI and DNA.testing info for the breed come from that Suejaw posted????

A little bit of digging reveals that the website was founded by Carol Fowler, of PDE Cavalier fame.

Ah didn't know that.

I found very little on the breed health page here so went to the US as usually they are much hotter on health testing.
Found the link through to the OFA of required and optional tests for the breed.
https://www.ofa.org/recommended-tests?breed=YT

I have a large toy breed and always breed them after 3 years, as that's when the MRI scan should be done. I accept that it might be different for the smaller toy breeds though

I think in your breed the higher breeding age has been adopted as a compromise primarily to help reduce the later onset health issues, and trying increase the age of onset of heart murmers to over 5 with mulri generational health clearance before breeding.