Hello to all.  I need to ask for some advice.  As I have already mentioned several times lately, I have stopped breeding.  My family of 6 coton de tuléar remains with me and will do so until their lives have run their course.  I have four spayed females and two in-tact males.  My males basically get along well and are fond of each other.  They share a crate in my bedroom for nighttime sleeping.  However, their rivalry is increasing, expressing itself in even more marking inside, every time I leave the room or the house, causing me to go around wiping up pretty much all day every day.  The rituals have increased, affecting all 6, but instigated mainly by the males.  And sometimes those rituals (e.g. the males barking like crazy in each other's face every time I let them out into the garden) are starting to turn into aggression and, on occasion, even attack.  Hoagy is 12 and Robin is 9.  Do you think castrating one or both of them would make any sense at all??  Might it change their relationship for the worse?  Or would it be more likely to ease the tensions?  Thanks for any and all words of wisdom!

It would probably help to neuter at least one of them. Are you planning to let them be used at stud by other breeders? Are you sure their breeding careers are over, even if you don't plan to use them yourselves?

No, they will not be available to other breeders.  Hoagy has had a problem with his sperm (which is why I took a second male), and Robin has a problem mating (back trouble).  So all six doggies are just my beloved pets.

Another question:  If I were to castrate only one of my two males, should it be the dominant one (Hoagy) or the more submissive one (Robin)?  Robin is bigger than Hoagy, but Hoagy is older, and I believe that he is dominant over Robin (though sometimes it is hard to tell...).

I think I would have the older dog vet checked just in case there’s something going on with him.
I have known older dogs to become aggressive with kidney failure.

> If I were to castrate only one of my two males, should it be the dominant one (Hoagy) or the more submissive one (Robin)?  Robin is bigger than Hoagy, but Hoagy is older, and I believe that he is dominant over Robin (though sometimes it is hard to tell...).

Well that is the 65000 dollar question. One school of thought is to neuter the submissive one, so that you increase the difference between them and make it easy for the assertive one to feel like there is no threat to his position.

The other school of thought is to neuter whichever one usually starts it by posturing or asserting themselves but you need to watch closely to really see who is doing this, perhaps video encounters and watch back in slow motion - because who you think is starting it is not always who is...

Equally, if it is caused by testosterone you could probably neuter both and that would be equally fine. But you'd then have to do surgery on 2 dogs.

> Hoagy is 12 and Robin is 9.

Seems a bit strange it has suddenly started now, I would get both checked by a get to make sure there isn't anything medical causing the change in behaviour. Has there been any changes in their life/routine?

It could be age itself causing the change - as one dog gets older and more frail, the dynamics will change with younger dogs often...

>Seems a bit strange it has suddenly started now, I would get both checked by a get to make sure there isn't anything medical causing the change in behaviour. Has there been any changes in their life/routine?

I guess I gave the wrong impression.  Sorry about that.  Because no, it has not suddenly started now.  It has always been there, but it is "growing", becoming more pronounced.  I had thought of having Hoagy neutered quite some time ago, since I was not using him as a stud.  But I was afraid that it could cause serious problems between the two males, especially since until recently, I still had females coming into heat, etc.  I didn't want to take the chance of inadvertently creating a problem between the two males which had not been there before.  Now that all that mating stuff is over for good, I am thinking it over once again.  I'm getting mightly fed up with mopping up the pees all over the place:  on every corner of furniture - I already know where to look - , on anything out of place or anything new, any door left open.  These things are all "commented upon" the minute I'm not looking.  And not just once!

I'm still thinking (and now asking here for advice), and somehow I' feel myself tending in the direction of neutering BOTH of them.  BTW, Hoagy recently had an "oldie-check".  His blood was checked for everything, and he's just fine!

Just an idea, you could try chemical castration to see if that would make any difference before actually putting them through an op, I believe this available as a injection, im not a breeder so sorry if im wrong, but I did try it with a male boxer I had, purely as a pet, some time ago. Good Luck.

That's what I would do.  As Hoagy is quite old you could in theory just repeat the chemical castration (there is a 12 month implant) so no bit surgery to worry about.

I would definitely try the suprelorin implant on both dogs, I've found it lasts much longer than they say it does - and that makes sense as it's one implant for all sizes, from chihuahua to great dane. It lasted my 20kg boy for well over 2 years, might do yours for life?

I don't know where I learnt this, and it may well be wrong, but I was always under the impression that you castrate the more submissive.  That way if the aggressive one tries to start something, he should get no reaction.

Why these two boys are suddenly marking I don't really know other that I have known spayed bitches to become interesting to some males.  And then there's the possibility that one of the girls could have anal gland problems which again I have known to turn on the boys.   And then again, might there be a local bitch in season?   I note you say there has always been a bit of competition (growling) between the boys but did that include peeing everywhere?

Castration is venturing into the unknown as far as what difference it might, or might not make.   IMO.   And would you want to put them through what is surgery (anaesthetic) in the hope it improves matters?    You may find one of them has some pain from somewhere and the other boy has noticed that (body language!) and is now trying to become top dog? 

On balance, to give you an idea about what castration, for one or both, might or might not achieve, chemical castration could be the way to go.

Just one other thing - I think you may do better not to have them sleep in the same crate if I have understood this is what's going on.   It may be time to give them their own 'room'.

One of the worst dogs I ever new was a castrated male terrier.

So much so I refused to have him stay.

Thank you all very much! 

I would like to make clear once again that the marking and the rivalry is nothing new or "sudden" at all.  It's always been there.  It has just become gradually more intense over the past few years. 

I am going to speak with my vet about an implant castration.  And it is true that Hoagy often exhibits some kind of physical disturbance, in the morning hours if it occurs.  I've had him checked over recently, and nothing was found.  He's on a little pain medication at night, which seems to have helped.  I'll also talk to my vet about an implant for Robin alone.  I have an appointment next week for castrating both of them, but I'm going to change it to a consultation about variations on the theme.  You have helped me a lot.  Many thanks.

Good morning to all.  Just wanted to say that I have discussed castration via implanted chip with my vet, and THIS is what we are going to do.  Many thanks for your much appreciated opinions, experience and advice!!