Hi,
I have a 2 1/2 yr [breed removed], and would like to use him as a stud dog not week in week out just once or twice.
I would also like to go through the checking process and anything else that needs doing.

As you can tell I have never done this before so any advice from experienced owners/breeders welcome.

He is KC registered etc and was purchased from a reputable breeder.

Has your dog been shown because if he has, and has been successful enough, people with equally good bitches will possibly come to you and you have to know whether, on paper, those bitches will nick with him and produce something worth having.   

Has he had all the KC testing relevant for his breed, and passed?

You do realise that once used, he may well be looking for the next bitch, regardless of whether you only want to let him be used once or twice. 

Stud dogs can be difficult to live with and unless he is a top quality example of his breed, with something to give back to his breed, I urge you to abandon this idea, and just enjoy him for the much loved pet he is.  JMO.

Also has his pedigree got breeding endorsements .u would need to speak to his breeder and although I agree with mamabas as she has the experience if u were to do this having your breeder behind u as a mentor would be ideal

You might fid reading this helpful:

Should I offer my dog at Stud?

In my own breed even Champion males can remain unused or rarely used.

This can be because the available bitches are too closely related to him, or the bitch owners don't feel his qualities will complement those of the bitch.

On top of that you have the issue of compatible Hereditary health results.

Now your breed is popular, and good breeders will have plenty of males to choose from who have a proven track record in the show ring or working in the field, who, also have good health test results.

For your dog to be used he would be in competition with these dogs.

For a start bitch owners would need to see him, to assess his qualities.

This would mean you getting him out to shows or training and competing with him at trials.

Of course you could simply advertise him, and you would maybe get some bitch owners who are neither knowledgeable or responsible. They will then rear the litter and sell to anyone willing to buy, and forget about them.

These pups have a high chance of ending up re-homed and/or in rescue.

Also without health testing there is a higher chance of some of the pups suffering debiltating expensive health issues.

Have you checked his Kennel Club registration certificate to check for endorsements, that most reputable breeders place on registrations?

These are "Progeny not elligible for registration" and "Not eligible for the issue of an export pedigree".

If you have these then his puppies cannot be KC registered.

His breeder could lift these, or not.

Usually a breeder would only lift these once all health testing was carried out, and in their opinion the dog had qualities suitable for breeding (correct temperament and other breed characteristics).

Approaching his breeder would be my first step.

They could assess him to see if they consider he is a breeding candidate.

Remember though he is unlikely to be useful to his breeder as they will usually have his close relatives.

So you could end up spending a lot of time and money, and still not attract any breeders.

You would also need to study the breed and breed lines in depth to be able to determine the suitability of any bitches coming to your dog.

Some lines do not produce good results when combined.

The thing people with male dogs don't realise, is that it's not their market. It's the owner of the female dog who looks at all the male dogs around and available and decides which to use on their female. You don't get a choice in this. You put your dog 'on the shelf in the store' and then the female dog owner gets to decide if she likes him or not.

Your dog is going to be 'on that shelf' along with FTChs and SHChs and fully health-tested and proven stud dogs.

So, before going down the convoluted process and expensive process of health testing with a view to breeding, ask yourself if it's likely that anyone is going to want to use him when there are many fully titled and proven dogs around...

Yup, I know the owners of a lovely Champion male who they would love another pup from (they do have his Champion son).

Very often, if he's still alive and available, owners of super quality bitches are more likely to go to your dog's proven sire, than to your dog.  Also I should have said you need to know about what's in both pedigrees AND be able to physically assess the bitches whose owners may be interested in using your dog to see if their offspring have a chance of being as problem free as possible.

My males were offered at general stud 'to approved bitches only' when they'd done well in the ring (or other relevant discipline) but even then, I turned away more than I agreed to them being used with because fact is the male (and owner) is 50% responsible for any puppies he sires.   And even the best laid plans can go wrong.

Yes, do talk to your dog's breeder before you get into any of this.

Welcome.
Long post coming sorry it thought I'd stick all the into I can think of in the one post for you to consider.

Before breeding your male will need all his health testing done this is more than a get check. For your breed you will need to to get his eyes tested both the normal exam and the gonioscopy one. This is done by an eye specialist under the BVA/KC/ISDS eye scheme. Have a look at the BVA website for a list of testers. He will also need DNA testing for PRA and Fuco. These you can order swabs for from a lab and send them in. He should also be DNA tested for PKS and Hipscored the hipscore your own vet can take the xrays and submit them to the BVA for scoring. I would also DNA test for AMS.
It's a long list but no responsible bitch owner would use an untested stud, you will also need to be prepared to turn away any untested bitches as sadly there are a Lot of irresponsible people breeding without don't any health testing. The DNA testing the kc offer a package deal with all four tests for £135. The eye exam is about £60, the goniscope about another £60, the hip scoring the bva fee to score is £70 plus whatever your vet charges you to take the xray. To give you an idea on the prices.

With the kc reg you need to make sure he is not endorsed 'progeny not for generation's as this prevents his puppies being registered. If you havernt already I would look into showing or competing with him, this will help teach you what his faults are as well as getting him seen by other breeders as the shows or the field is going to be their main shop window as it were. Yours is not an uncommon breed so breeders will have alot of choice to pick from doing well either showing, competing or working will help him stand out as having something to offer his breed. I would also advise contacting his breeder as they are responsible they should be able to advise you on the best places to get the testing done, lines to avoid or that he may go well with, could know someone who might be interested in his line and could have a look at him for you.

You will also need to keep in mind once used his personality may change, some dogs become less tolerant towards other males, keep looking for bitches and scent mark more after being used at stud. Not all do of course but keep this in mind. Also being the stud owner you will have to be available for when the bitch is ready it all goes on their schedule. You will need to learn the actual maiting process, what can go wrong and how to help if needed to ensure a safe maiting, as sometimes dogs can get injured if your not careful or unlucky. I would suggest the book of the bitch as it has a section on the maiting process.
Also keep in mind you could do all the above and no one decides to use him, it's the risk us male owners take as it's all down to the bitch owners to pick their studs.

anything goes wrong with the pregnancy/lack of pregnancy/ birth/ puppies and you can be sure the stud dog will get the blame!  Looks like a hell of a lot of hassle to me

A friend was most distressed when one of her boys pups ended up in a rescue centre.

The breeder had emigrated.

The rescue would not allow my friend to have him, as she had multiple dogs!!

Problem is the stud dog owner has no control over where the pups go.

> anything goes wrong with the pregnancy/lack of pregnancy/ birth/ puppies and you can be sure the stud dog will get the blame!

Ain't THAT the truth.   Which is why, unless I was happy about both owner and the quality of her bitch, I did turn away more enquiries for my boys, than I accepted.    It wasn't worth the hassle indeed!   I didn't want my bloodlines associated with just anybody.

Hi All,

I appreciate all the input/answers reference  this matter.
Sorry its a long post. 

My only thinking at the moment is, just because a dog has proved itself in the field doesn't mean that a dog that has not entered a completion s not of good quality.
Take mine for instance, he has been let down with regards to field training due to me not being upto standard not him, we havnt entered any completions or had formal training. he has a very good hereditary line with Field Champions etc etc.. just because someone's parents are champions doesn't mean the offspring are. Likewise just because the parents are not champions doesn't mean the offspring wont or can't be
I totally understand the need for checks and hereditary defects etc I get that..
To quote a gun dog trainer who met my dog
"Wow havn't seen one of those in ages."
Me surprised " what a spaniel?"
No he's more of the old type.. thicker set, broader more like they were years ago.
That comment certainly came to light when since he has met other dogs and when side by side he looks like a male and the others have looked slimmer ie legs, head etc. No he is not over weight 24kg not taller, just thicker set.
I think I should really get in contact with a good breeder for their opinion get their view let them meet him see what they say.
Thank you for all your feedback, greatly appreciated.

What about his breeder ? U will need to.chexk to see if he is endorsed not for  breeding and if so u will have to speak to his breed as to what they want to lift those. If they won't any offspring  cant be registered by the kc.
So first stop is his breeder before u think about other things

I’ve had a look at the KCwebsite, it looks like his dam has had no health testing at all, his sire has had dna tests but no eye test or hip score.

Thats not a good start Goldenmum

May not be a good start,  but it gives me a starting point of items to address. Guess even if the parents were not tested doesn't necessarily mean there is anything wrong with my Dog,
Even if parents are tested for everything doesn't mean the offspring don't have defects goes same for anything.

Wow your dog's breeder has 629 puppies of lots of breeds & crossbreds:Cocker Spaniels, Italian Spinoni, Irish Setter, Curly Coated Retriever, Basset Hound, Pointer, Cocker x Poodle, Cairn Terriers, Spinone x Curly Coated Retriever

The only health results are for Irish Setters which are hereditary results not testing for dogs the own or have bred

The Kennels are licensed & run as a business.

I'm saying no more

Your point is?
A dog can be tested to the hilt doesn't mean its pups are healthy.
If I get mine tested and passes then where the issue.
I'm on here for help not getting into handbags at dawn.
I'll say no more

>My only thinking at the moment is, just because a dog has proved itself in the field doesn't mean that a dog that has not entered a completion s not of good quality.

Take mine for instance, he has been let down with regards to field training due to me not being upto standard not him, we havnt entered any completions or had formal training.

Well that's a bit like saying 'just because my car hasn't been checked by a mechanic for the last 8 years, doesn't mean it is not running fine - after all, we all have valid reasons for not taking our car to the mechanic...' That's not really the right way to look at it, is it? Sure, a car which hasn't seen a mechanic in 8 years might be perfectly fine - or it might not. A car which HAS seen a mechanic recently, is guaranteed to be fine (as far as we can guarantee anything).

If you are asking people to purchase a puppy from you, then they are going to be best served from a dog which has proven ability and health. Not one which might have, and also might not have.

If you care about upholding quality, you would only breed from proven and tested dogs in the field. If you don't have the time to do that, then don't breed from him.

I don't think anyone is saying that a dog that hasn't seen the show right or field trails can't go on to produce champions or good working dogs. It's that as owners we can be biased an overlook faults.

A lot of the replies you have gotten are from breeders so they're trying to put across the Dam's owners perspective. You dog will have a lot of compition and if I was looking to breed d I'd chose a stud that's proven in the field I was interested in over an untested stud. That doesn't mean that an untested dog will produce poor quality puppies but it is more likely that a tested one will produce the qualities I'm after more reliably.

If you're involved in shooting then you know that per person a days shot is very expensive. If a dog doesn't flush birds to the gun or is gun shy they'd lose a lot of profit. If I'm breeding for that area I'd rather choose a least a working gun dog stud that has offspring that are working rather than a prettier but unproven untested dog. There's a reason that field trail spaniels do not look as petty or big boned, performance is chosen over looks. And though the gamekeepers might live the look of your dog, their profit is the bottom line and the main consideration for breeding.

That's not saying that you're never going to find a decent breeder that might want to use your male. I'm sure he's lovely. We just want to give you the realistic picture from the Dam's owner perspective so that you've not going to be disappointed if you take a while or don't find one.

After you've had all the health checks make sure you put your terms in writing and always have written contracts on fees, returns, ext. Good luck

Thank you for your reply. greatly appreciated..

Cars..  so a brand new car doesnt that doesnt need a check for three years never breaks down, because been tried, tested and checked etc..

Iwas here for help advice which I have received from some good responses...thank you

Just because I'm not in the in crowd i get odd ball comments and stupid private messages...
I've taken on board what good replies I've received and will do my upmost to have my dog throtoughly checked. If he does not pass any of the tests then he will not be put forward for breeding and will have his bits removed.... simple.
I was not here to infect the gene pool. As one person put it.

Also not doing this too make money... retired at 45 so money not an issue . if he passes the tests then anyone interested can use him for free. Not interested n stud fees.

Sorry Crazydoglady that last part of my last post wasn't dig oranything just stating a fact..wasn't aimed at you.

Oh dear you have missed the point. You bought your dog from a commercial breeder, who fails to carry out even basic health testing.
The reason for health testing(especially DNA) means you know the health status of your dog, if your dog is DNA normal for a genetic condition it means he CANNOT ever pass on that condition to his offspring, the clinical tests like HD/ED/eye conditions for which there are currently no DNA tests for show that your dog or doesn't have the condition.
Breeding from a dog with no ancestral health testing means you know nothing about the probability of your dog's of developing clinical conditions. A dog with perfect hips who ancestors have never been scored doesn't mean he will be an improver for hips in his offspring.

Undoubtedly you may find a bitch owner willing to use your dog based on his looks alone, that's up to the bitch's owner. They might not realise the reason for breeding dogs should be to improve the breed, not just to get puppies from 2 dogs

Take it there's a DNA test for hereditary conditions?
I'll get that done too. Along with the other test.
Also ill make sure he's not breeding if he passes everything with any relations etc

the breed club maybe helpful in finding out what health tests must be done. Often this is more than what the kc suggest . If that's the case here then the breed clubs recommendations would be the ones to would follow.
Also don't forget to speak to the breeder re endorsements probably before you start  on the road to testing or you may find you are spending a lot of money and wont be able to register the pups anyway. That is assuming that after the advice given you decide to go ahead

Thank you ever so much for the advice and link.
Fantastic, will make a start as you have suggested  in correctorder etc.
Thanks again.. hopefully all going well ill be back on here with an update at some point.

This site lists all the health tests relevant and their costs, they will post you out free cheek swabs. I'd probably just go for the £130 + vat bundle, wait for the results from that before doing hip and elbow scoring which are more expensive. If you don't get good dna test results there's no point wasting money on hips and elbows.

Thanks for the link... and good advice regards which way round to do rests..

Another point. if u get to the stage when someone wants to use your dog the bitch must be fully health tested as well or u risk health issues in the pups.

Yep... fully agree. Be pointless going through all the tests etc  for no reason.
Hence the reason I came to this website/forum to try and do things properly.
Sorry if I've annoyed anyone but like everything in life some people have to start somewhere . Good advice is always welcome from the people in the know... although you'll always get someone who doesn't like an outsider trying to get in on a circle.
I mean I could have just let him go with anything see what we ended up with.. just trying to be responsible and do things right.

The lack of testing of the mother especially is a negative point regarding the breeder (taking short cuts).

As the breeder is normally the person you most rely on for knowledge and help with any breeding plans.

The next person you would rely on is the owner of the sire.

It would not fill me with confidence that they allow their dog to be used on untested bitches.

The breeder is commercially motivated, with the numbers of breeds and crossbreeds.

Not a breed enthusiast who devotes themselves to the maintenance of qualities in a chosen breed.

That is what is meant by 'not a good start'.

This means you will need to find mentors elsewhere.

I would join the National and regional breed clubs and contact breeders/judges in the working side.

Attend breed events once they start up again.

You may have an outstanding dog???

But you would need breeders to becime aware of this.

I applaud you for wanting to do things properly.

No worries I figured that.

About not charging a stud fee and offering him for free. Please for the sake of your own sanity please don't do that. You'll get lots of calls/messages from the worset breeders possible who want to use you for their financial gain and you'll get sick of turning them all down all of the time.

If you don't want to profit and don't want to take any money then agree that the fee will be in the form of a set donation to a charity of your choosing. You can ask to watch it be sent. That way you never touched the money so won't need to worry about HMRC and you'll get less calls from chancers and a charity benefits rather than someone else's pocket

Totally understand... I'm very patient very very.. I can turn people away all day in a polite manner of course... 27 years in the forces so doing things correctly and turning down people that do not fit the bill isn't an issue.. right man for the job etc or right dog should I say.

Like the charity idea, might have to use that if he gets the all clear from tests etc.

Wish I could some pictures up of him.

Regardless of where this thread has gone, I repeat ---

" You do realise that once used, he may well be looking for the next bitch, regardless of whether you only want to let him be used once or twice.

Stud dogs can be difficult to live with and unless he is a top quality example of his breed, with something to give back to his breed, I urge you to abandon this idea, and just enjoy him for the much loved pet he is.  JMO. "

You started out saying you just wanted to use him " not week in week out just once or twice."    The moment you allow him to be used, is when your troubles with him could well start.   I have to ask why you want to open Pandora's Box.

The other thing to consider too if all health tests come back good in terms of hip scoring, eye testing and DNA testing and that he has no breeding endorsements is that any bitch coming to him also is fully health tested with no breeding endorsements either. Whether that be the same breed or another breed.
Do you have a mentor who can help you in terms of lines and what lines to avoid your boy going to and breeders to swerve letting your boy be used? Not your breeder going by what has been posted above but a decent breeder of working line. That's what you need and also someone to guide you on drawing up stud contracts and also how to handle a male during the mating/s.

Hi,
Some sound advice thank you,

No.. I do not have a mentor.. pretty much out on my own. Was going to scroll/go back through pointers on this thread and knock up a check list of items/checks to go through.

Like you say if all goes well then he would of course be matched with anothe that is fully tested and clear, preferably with someone that has had a bit if experience.  That way there's less likely chance of any stress to either of the potential mates.. That way I could pick up/learn the good and bad ways of doing things.. 

Ultimately another pedigree springer to be honest, some people like cross breeding some don't. Personally not a fan of a  Rhino doodle or a giraffador or any other mixture... some lively dogs not slayung they are bad, just not foe me..

Just been trolling the pxts4homes site trying to see if someone is selling some stolen ESS puppies on there found over 130 adverts methinks this country has gone dog breeding mad

If the ones for my breed (with only 34 KC registered last year), with several of the planned litters from breed club members put off, all I have seen are non reg or fake/suspicious adverts that were potentially Spam. Some had used friends photos, one had litters with same dob at opposite ends of the country with prices up to 4 times nirmal from decent breeders.