If you've experienced a food allergy in a dog, how long after eliminating the problem food was it, before you noticed an improvement in symptoms? Online it says something like 4 -12 weeks, which seems crazy?!

Thanks.

Edited to add: The symptoms are skin symptoms (itching, red paws) and not gastro.

sounds about right , you are usually told to use an elimination diet for 6 weeks but it can take longer. If you arnt seeing a reduction after 8 weeks I would be looking at something else as well . environmental ?

I believe you feed raw ? so I assume ( dangerous :) ) you are feeding just one meat bone and offal ? if so try changing to another one ?

I have spent years working with a veterinary  dermatologist on mine and have learned loads from her  but they are a right pain to sort even to an acceptable level. mine have needed that professional input without a doubt to have good quality of life  and reluctantly use of different meds both oral and topical . We are with the vet for life now :)

Both my dogs had food and environmental allergies and after 6 weeks there was an improvement but not perfect as the environmental allergens were still at play.. Just to add symptoms were skin as you describe and in one ear infections

Urgh. It's a minefield. I'm just dreading it all and trying a few things myself before we go to the vet.

She's a 6 month old pup and it began with the white fur on her rear paws turning pink. I didn't notice her licking them at all. Now the front paws are starting to go pinky lower down, too. And she has started nibbling them all. I'm using Douxo Pyo mousse and wipes, which are anti-bacterial, disinfectant and anti-fungal and have lots of skin-supporting things in them but after a week using that, they don't seem any different. So I will take her to the vet soon for skin-scrapings etc, just to rule out mites of any kind. I don't think it's that but I guess it's an easy one to fix and rule out.

She was definitely lactose intolerant with soft poos when fed any dairy so I'd put her on lactose-free dairy products, which totally fixed the soft poo. But, when the pink feet thing happened, I then wondered if it were more of an allergy to dairy - apparently this is about the protein in the dairy so still present in lactose-free dairy - so I cut dairy out altogether a couple of days ago. So I was just wondering how long I now have to stare at her feet and wonder if things are any better for.

I am just dreading having to do some strict exclusion diet with her, because she is so fussy with food and it's already so hard to motivate and train her. Feeding her the same food for 2 months, and nothing else, is going to be hell. So I'd rather try all else first(!). I thought I could start by eliminating the most common allergens like grains, chicken, beef, and dairy - and see if that gets us anywhere.

Beef was the problem with one of mine.  Used to gnaw his paws within 24 hours of eating it.  I would definitely start with beef and then chicken.

Sorry to say I have to agree with you it is a minefield and very hard work. We really started getting somewhere when I got the referral .As I have learned it is actually quite tricky and even when you find the issue assuming its not a simple food only that can be removed it is a management of the allergen
I went down the specialist route when my general vet discovered she had Aspergillus,  in her ears. That wasnt what I needed to hear as you likely know if it gets into the nasal passages and brain it could be fatal. So it wasn't the fact she was allergic to it and it was causing an infection but what it could do

My vet always why she uses what she does and what any potential side effects could be. very few with what she has chosen for us . why some time steroids , short term are helpful and others not . We have chosen not to use things like acquopel etc but for my fcr have gone the immunotherapy route. We have even managed to get pseudomonas but knocked it on the head with the right treatment . that was on top of the allergies .


No known side effects and she was young enough to start on it. over 5 and apparently its unlikely to work .
I could go on :) but wont bore you. If you ever think of a referral happy to pm with the specialists details , I think she is very good , she also lectures internationally on the subject .

Usually a minimum of 6 weeks, although it can take longer, depending on the dog's metabolism.

I meant to add that gastric reactions are quicker to notice a difference than dermatological ones, which are notoriously slow.

agree with that Jeangenie

Hmm, do you folks think that if I noticed she had a lactose intolerance about 2 weeks ago and stopped that then (and saw immediate stopping of the runny poo) that the skin could also be due to the lactose intolerance, but is just taking longer to clear up?? Could both skin and poo be related to the same lactose intolerance? Or does lactose intolerance not manifest as skin probs?

Could  be all.or any of.those.  if u have only just started eliminating I would.stay with it for.at least 6 weeks

Ok, from a quick google it looks like lactose intolerance is related to gastro stuff and the involvement of other systems indicate an allergy and immune system involvement. So I guess it's possible it is all an allergy but the skin is taking longer to clear up than the poo...

Rai was lactose intolerant to a huge degree (two Piriton tablets once set off a full scale reaction).  Her reaction to any of her triggers was scratching herself constantly until she was losing fur and breaking skin if there wasn't medical intervention, and any reaction took weeks to settle even with medication.  So yes, you could be in for a bit of a wait.

Thanks Nikita. I don't want to get my hopes up, but I think her paws are much less pink today and she has been itching much much less. (I think we're on day 4-5 of stopping lactose and day 2 of stopping dairy.)

I have a question: I've realised that loads of tablets and meds list 'lactose' as an ingredient Am I now in for a future where I have to be really careful what meds she's prescribed because loads of them have lactose in? And are there equivalent meds which don't contain lactose or am I going to have a much-reduced list of possible meds for her....?? (Not that we need any at the moment, but a bit worried about the future!)

Second, could your lactose intolerant dog have lactose-free yoghurt and lactose-free soft cheese? And cheddar? Or did you just avoid all dairy?

For the antihistamines, I was directed to a list online of those that didn't have it in them.  I don't know if that applies to all meds though and the antihistamines weren't that easy to get hold of (not in any supermarkets etc).

For dairy: she's not a good example for that!  Rai would become sensitive to things very, very easily so what started as lactose only soon became any and all dairy, and even the tiniest bit.  I never got to try lactose-free stuff because dairy had to be excluded within weeks.

Oh right. I think it's probably safest (assuming progress continues) to remove all dairy as well. It's a shame because she did love cheese

Well, progress really hasn't continued. It looked like things were getting better for a few days but now it's worse than ever and she's permanently in a buster collar due to trying to nibble her red paws - which she's pretty miserable about.

I'll try to see the vet this coming week about it, although my worry is they are just going to give us steroids for a few days. Which will probably help whilst she's on them and then it will all come back again, going from other people's experiences.

From my research, it doesn't seem that there's much a vet can do unless we are ready to try Cytopoint injections or prescription meds. And it just seems so early to do that kind of thing with a 6 month old puppy. But I don't think we have time to do 6 week exclusion diets if she is this much into eating her paws.

Is there something the vet can give which will make things not-too-bad whilst we continue to experiment, but which is still going to let us see if our food experiments are working and isn't going to just mask the results?!

No wonder food exclusion diets are so unpopular, it's not just that they are really impractical, it's that they take ages and the dog is suffering allergy symptoms all the time. But if you give something to get rid of the symptoms (anti-histamines, steroids, other meds) then how are you going to know if the exclusion diet is working or the meds?!

Could the allergy be more environmental, than diet related?
A friends SBT has the same symptoms you describe however after thinking it was down to food they found out is was an allergy to certain types of grass. Flare ups would occur after walking in certain areas, especially if grass was wet/damp (like now)

Allergies are very complicated to treat so I have learned and if the basic things don't work then u really need a specialist.
Yes u are likely to have to use various meds,  at the beginning but with patience and time u usually can come to a.satisfactory treatment plan that means.your dog is.comfortable
During that time it does feel like.u have moved into the vets
As I explained we use immunotherapy as it has little or.no side effects .we haven't had any side effects after 5 years and.going .
For.brooke it has meant that she still has her hearing as she was in grave danger of needing both canals.being removed due to damage after a relatively short time . That is not a risk any more
Immunotherapy doesn't stop all.the reactions but reduces to a low level.then occasionally if we get a spike extra treatment is added for short periods.

Previously to that I spent months and months trying different natural things as well.as  treatmemt from my vet when that didn't work
goodness knows how much i spent never mind.the stress on all of.us and both dogs discomfort
It was the specialist that really sorted us and still is  years later .

furriefriends, can you give me more info? We live in a remote area and are probably not near your specialist but it would be good to know anyway.

I'm not too sure what immunotherapy is, is that where they inject the dog with small amounts of the allergen to retrain the immune system or am I confusing it with something else?

And yes, it could well be environmental. Especially as it began at her feet and seems to have spread upwards from there. But there's nothing she's exposed to which we can really avoid, seeing she's a working gundog and grass is going to get encountered(!). So I have to assume it's food because at least that's something I can control.

Of.course. can I pm u her details .even if u arnt near her she could.be very helpful in pointing u the right way.

It means monthly injections of the allergens that case.the problem . I do the injections myself .
It desensitised the immune system to the allergens .we had to do food elimination as well as skin tests to identify the most bothersome ones
From memory I think in brookes.case it was about 8 environmental ones.food was.chicken and salmon so that was just removed from her food. I feed raw so not hard.  I check any treats which are mainly pure meat or bine anyway as.there maybe other ingredients in processed treats . Our worse 2 are malazzia and aspillergosis neither of which can be removed so the injects reduce her responses and we then use topical.meds usually if it has a bad season

Thanks furrief yes please do PM me.

Malazzia is a yeast, right? I think it's what the dog gets in response to the allergies? Or can they also be allergic to the thing they get themselves in response?!

I wish I didn't have to learn about any of this :(

just pmd you. Its a bit of an essy

Yes Malazzia is a type of yeast and as with anything it can be something the dog or you react to . With  Brooke it is one of her allergens .Removing these things even if you find them is almost impossible  Its around all the time just worse at some times of the year. No chance of removing it from the environment either or the other things she is allergic to.  For example we might think a certain grass causes a reaction but it could be something on the grass . Or maybe just when its in flower.
One of the others that she reacts badly to is Aspergillus a type of mould again around us so cant be removed and we dont see it. oh yes and then pseudomonas popped in   just for good measure ! Fortunately the cytology showed that and we were able to treat it

I have a report of all the things she was tested for and what she reacted to.

I know how you feel about wishing you didn't have to learn. Ive learned loads and it wasn't
what I expected to be doing as interesting as it is

We saw the vet today. To rule out parasites, including fleas, lice, mites etc, all dogs have now been treated with Advocate. Yuck.

Pup has got antibiotics (cefalexin/Therios?) for 3 weeks and steroids (prednisone) and we go back for a check up in 2 weeks before the steroids finish, to see if it's adequately gone away. The approach is to fix the symptoms and see if it returns. It might just have been some acute reaction which cascaded into dermatitis. The vet said it's not a classic presentation of anything, because she is only 6 months old and it's on her feet only. Allergies usually appear later and affect other areas on the dog's body too(?). So does mange.

She did say that if it returns, there's an allergy blood test that can be done. Is that true? Everything I read online says that all allergy testing (blood, saliva, hair) is not reliable. She said it was expensive.

furriefriends if we do end up having to take things further, I will ask her about speaking with your dermatologist vet....

Food allergy tests srnt very reliable but environmental ones are pretty good . It's what we used that and then skin tests food was done by elimination
Hair tests are useless .
I've forgotten what I paid but can look it up later.
Fingers crossed this helps though

>She did say that if it returns, there's an allergy blood test that can be done. Is that true? Everything I read online says that all allergy testing (blood, saliva, hair) is not reliable. She said it was expensive.

The allergy blood tests are good but you need to know how to interpret them correctly. An IgG test is much more useful than an IgE test. Also allergy tests are covered by most insurance companies (if your dog is insured).

Thanks, yes, dog is insured. Unfortunately only with an annual policy so it would make sense to do all the testing and stuff up front this year really(!) and we will be left paying any ongoing costs.

I usually get lifetime insurance for puppies for the first 2 years due to things like this appearing in the first year or two of life, and only then switch to annual - but this time (sigh) I decided to economise due to coronavirus. Now I wish I hadn't.

I had for life policy and claimed each time but its was a big but the premiums increased to £300 pm for.brooke and £400 pm for.whispa.
That couldn't be afforded so changed to pet plan with exclusions on all.to.do with skin which includes ears . I now pay all brookes dermatological needs and she is covered for everything else via pet plan. It works out cheaper that way

Oh right, that's interesting. I'll keep that in mind. We're with Direct Line who I've found to be really good about paying out over the years.

Just an update after our check up today. We are coming to the end of the course of prednisolone and cefalexin. Whilst she is not trying to itch her paws/eat them, and the inflammation is better, there are still little bits which remain more inflamed on her paws than they should be.

Both the vet and us believe that when we stop the steroids, the symptoms will return. Today is the last dose of steroids although she has another 5 days on the ABs. If the itching comes back, then we have to go in for swabs/scrapes/hair sampling and fungi/bacteria culturing and bloods taken. (If all goes according to plan, she will have a trazodone and the vet will come do this in the boot of our car.) If nothing is seen when the vet looks under the microscope at all those slides, then we are moving more towards an atopic dermatitis diagnosis and she might get a cytopoint injection and our vet will consult with the specialist dermatologist furriefriends messaged me about earlier when we get the full results back from culturing (which can take about 4 weeks to grow the stuff in agar jelly etc).

UPDATE: Well, we didn't get far stopping the prednisolone. She was due a dose this morning, which I didn't give her. And by this evening she was chewing her feet which were bright pink like an old lady's pink rinse.

So, as told to by the vet if this happens, I gave her another prednisolone and we'll stay on it on the alternate day dosage we were on before, until we see the vet for skin scrapes and tests. The vet we need to see is off this coming week so it will be the start of the next week...

I have a question about cytopoint, if anyone reads this and has used it... I don't know if this question is clear but I will attempt it!

At the moment (on 5mg of prednisolone on alternate days), our dog still has slightly inflamed skin on her feet. But it is not itchy and she doesn't touch it or seem bothered about it. She has been on the steroids for about 3wks now and there is no damage done to her feet from itching or nibbling - because she doesn't do that on steroids. The slightly inflamed skin is not inflamed due to nibbling...

When we stopped the steroids, that inflammation got much worse and then she started to itch and nibble them again just about 5 hours after she was due a dose. She can't not be on anything because life is pretty unbearable for her like that, so she went back on steroids until our skin swabs on Monday.

ANYWAY:

So for her, the inflammation comes first and then the nibbling and itching starts. She doesn't itch and nibble her feet and cause inflammation through itching and nibbling them.

My understanding of cytopoint - from what I can read - is that it acts on the itching pathway (IL-31) only. So it works by stopping itching. But our dog's skin isn't inflamed and red from itching. It is inflamed and red from whatever the underlying cause of this is. And the itching happens after the inflammation.

So I'm kinda worried that the cytopoint isn't going to work for us. Or are we going to end up with no itching, but still pink and inflamed skin?! Has anyone had a dog which had inflamed skin first and foremost and was only itching in response to that, who was helped by cytopoint??

We have to give cytopoint a go anyway because it does sound like the healthiest and least invasive option of the things open to us at the moment if there is even a chance it could work. The others are Apoquel (not approved for dogs under 12mnths), Atopica (cyclosporine - sounds *very* immunosuppressant and like a sledgehammer) and remaining on steroids (not a long-term option and we can't do the allergy blood test till she's been off steroids for 6wks, our vet said).

Really, if the cytopoint doesn't work for us, I think we will either have to risk using Apoquel off-label (under 12months) or Atopica. It isn't a choice I want things to come down to.

We are pursuing identifying the underlying cause, allergy-testing etc - but we need to manage her symptoms whilst we do that. And, as she has been on steroids, we need to wait 6wks till we can have the allergy blood test and need something to address symptoms till then, which isn't more steroids...

Finally, whilst she has been treated with Advocate and it doesn't seem to have worked, the vet said there are 2 things it could yet be... harvest mites and walking dandruff/cheyletiella which she will look for on swabs/scrapes/hair on Monday. They would not be covered by Advocate. I think we'd need Stronghold for Cheyletiella... It would be amazing if it turns out to be something that simple. If she doesn't find anything, then she will give the cytopoint.

PS - Darn, a google reveals that Advocate should treat for cheyletiella: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6393525_Efficacy_of_imidacloprid_10_per_centmoxidectin_2-5_per_cent_spot-on_in_the_treatment_of_cheyletiellosis_in_dogs

2x treatments, 4 weeks apart. We've only done one so far, but there would have been an improvement...

And harvest mites die off in winter it seems (and I really can't see anything orange or scabby).

Sadly I think it's an allergy :(

Gish doesn't it get complicated:(
I thought we had harvest mites but sadly no that would have been easy .
I camt really add anything helpful regarding cytopoint except u can use it month by month.  So can stop at any time which may be helpful .
Yes there is a waiting time when u have benn using steroids unfortunately which is frustrating.  I thought we did 4 weeks but my guess is its not a firm rule but down to individual vets choice . Sorry that's not helpful really

Yeah, I just feel like I am one step ahead of the vet really which sometimes doesn't fill me with faith. Like the vet didn't know that Apoquel was only for dogs over 12 months. I piped up and told her that when she was suggesting it to us on our first visit there.

So now I double and triple check every step and everything we do. And will get the vet to consult with your specialist dermatologist once skin scrapes are done. (But we will need something for the symptoms before that conversation between them will be possible.)

I guess I just read things about cytopoint where it seems to be that dogs are generally itchy but either the skin isn't damaged or the reason the skin is damaged is because they are itchy so they are worrying it.

And that's not what's happening for us. We have inflamed skin (all 4 feet), which then gets itchy. So I just don't know how the cytopoint is going to help us and I guess I'm worried about what else we're going to have to use

I have used this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Natural-Soothes-Insect-Injuries/dp/B08BK5LYMG/ref=sr_1_25?adgrpid=54345089918&dchild=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAw_H-BRD-ARIsALQE_2P-6enO5eyt6kleq9_5b11RUZES5oNfqLrTvROtCLg1HmVVhb4u4P8aAm4DEALw_wcB&hvadid=259003559256&hvdev=t&hvlocphy=9046366&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=5205125583169597903&hvtargid=kwd-298571205257&hydadcr=7861_1726156&keywords=dog+paw+balm&qid=1608287796&sr=8-25&tag=googhydr-21

I recommended it to my neighbour whose Bichon has very itchy paws, to the point she chews them to ribbons. It helped hugely and the paws recovered well. It might just help in that intervening period.

Thanks Rozzie, but I've already tried every product under the sun like that - including chlorhexidine mousse and climbazole (anti-fungal) wipes, natural mousse with teatree oil and probiotic shampoo and itch relief sprays, neem and coconut oil based things etc - I've spend a small fortune on this kinda thing, seeing zero improvement. So I've banned myself from anymore purchases now.

I am doing the Nutriscan food allergy saliva test which I know most mainstream vets think is rubbish but some people who've done it swear by it, so it seemed a good idea - but really I think it is an environmental/contact allergy of some kind, so we need to do the allergy blood test and then probably immunotherapy.

No worries, hope you find something that helps xxx

UPDATE: Today she had skin scrapes etc at the vet. She is very wriggly and not sedated enough on the trazodone and the vet didn't want to hurt her with the sharp scalpel for the scrape, so she was sedated in our car and then carried in when asleep.

The vet saw nothing on any of the slides, but some have been sent off for culturing or testing etc. We get the fungal result back in 7 days.

Since the vet saw nothing, she was given a Cytopoint injection. The vet said it is looking more and more like allergic dermatitis. We are supposed to give one more steroid tomorrow to overlap with the Cytopoint coming on board. This means we should know by the evening of Xmas Day if the cytopoint is going to work for us.

If it doesn't work, we have to go back on steroids again whilst the vet consults via video call with furriefriends' dermatologist vet to see if we can use Apoquel - because she is under 12 months.

Our vet is supposed to be away from new years eve till end of Jan now, so the best case scenario would be for the cytopoint to work and the vet to be able to talk to the dermatologist vet when she gets back then about next steps, with full results from these tests. I don't really want her to stay on steroids until the end of Jan, having been on them for 4 wks already. So keep everything crossed - would be the best Xmas present if the cytopoint works on Xmas Day! (I am secretly hoping vet can't travel due to covid and is here in January!!)

UPDATE: Best Xmas present ever because the Cytopoint seems to have worked!! Hurrah!

So now we just need to wait a while and keep up the Cytopoint - until we can do the allergy blood test and hopefully start immunotherapy.

We are off for our 2nd Cytopoint next week. The vet wanted to do these first 3 shots a month apart, before we see how long we can go between.

I'm sort of continuing this as a kind of log(!) in case it helps anyone with allergies coming after who searches on the forum.

Please to hear its helping 1234

Yes, so far the Cytopoint is still working. (At 3 weeks today.) I have heard that some people see it wearing off early and not making the full 4 weeks, but so far so good for us...

I am so pleased to here this. On the brighter side I have heard of others who it has last way more than 4 weeks

Hello, onetwothreefour, would you please update on your use of Cytopoint.  My vet after 4 years wants to try Cytopoint again.  I am reluctant.  Do you do the injections yourself or does the vet do them?  How does dog feel about it?

We've had 2 Cytopoints so far. The first one was given whilst she was sedated for skin scrapes, so she didn't feel that one and we weren't with her.

The second was given whilst she ate treats off a LickiMat. She didn't mind the needle going in, but she flinched a bit when the vet injected it. I have heard that if the vet takes it out the fridge about 30mins before, so it's warmer, then this is less likely.

The vet has to do the injections, I think because it's a prescription drug. If you do immunotherapy injections, owners can do these themselves.

We have to go back in 3 weeks for an allergy blood test and will get another Cytopoint at the same time - so our first 3 will be one month apart. The vet is going to give us gabapentin to try beforehand to calm her, and I hope I can request it along with the trazodone - all that is mostly to get her to be still for the blood test though, as she is a very excitable and wriggly puppy. (We tried trazodone by itself but that wasn't enough for the skin scrapes and she still needed sedation so I'm hoping the gabapentin with the trazodone will do something.)

With Cytopoint, it is recommended that before you decide it doesn't work, you do 3 months of it at one month apart. There is research to show that after one month, 67% of dogs have itching resolved, after 2 months 75% and after 3 months 85+% of dogs. So it takes a while to build up.

Thank you.  I presume the injection is given in the scruff of the neck.

Yes, it was given in the scruff of the neck. Here is the research by the way (or a summary of it): https://www.cliniciansbrief.com/article/new-research-some-dogs-benefit-additional-cytopoint-injections-maximum-response

Update for us, is that I am going to speak to the vet about trying sublingual immunotherapy (ie drops in the mouth instead of injections) - partly because I'm concerned about giving monthly injections containing aluminium as an adjuvant, which is what the injectable version uses. That's assuming we find she is allergic to anything. Some people say you should wait till a dog is over 1 year to do allergy bloods for accurate results, but heck...it's a minefield.

Agree it certainly is . I think the reason we didn't go the sublingual route was because it has to be done daily at the same time . There may have been another reason and I had concerns as to how practical that was For the life of the dog . I know for my lifestyle at the time I was concerned that I may not be able to do that as stupid as it sounds. 
There may have been something else as well that I cant remember but I know I decided not to go that route. 
I understand your thoughts about the adjuvnct though even if we are using the injectable type

3 years ago I was with another vet.  My dog was on Cytopoint.  We had to go every three weeks.  Dog was fine with that, no after affects.  I don't think the vet fully understood the use of it.  I know at that time I didn't.

The vet after she married was never there so the surgery depended on locums.  The last time I was with that vet was when a locum jabbed my poor dog really hard in her side.  I made a complaint obviously so came to the vet we are with now.

Cytopoint never made any difference to my dog.  The original vet did say I could inject my dog at home.  No way!  This vet wants to try Cytopoint instead of Apoquel.  I have got to decide before next visit.  I shall ask about drops because I could do that at home.

I do our monthly injections myself .it really isn't a problem and much more relaxing for brooke than going to the vet each months especially under the conditions we have now .