Hello,
I've found a Staffordshire bull terrier puppy I like but it won't be KC registered as Mum and Dad aren't (has 5 generation pedigree), will be vet checked but not had any hereditary health checks to see if clear of L2-HGA and HC-HSF4 etc. Does this sound fairly "normal" or should I be worried? Thanks in advance.

Run, fast.

If you are really happy to have no idea what your getting, then get one from Rescue.

Do not support irrresponsible breeding.

As for why they are not registered if full pedigree, could be many reasons none good.

To be registered only requires that both parents are registered and have no breeding restrictions on their papers.

Also that a bitch is not too old or too young and already had 4 litters. Also that the bitch belongs to the person when pups born.

It only costs £17 per pup.

Thanks a lot for your reply :-)
Could it just be that they haven't had the Mum/Dad health checked as they are their pets? Or is this sort of health checking something that should be expected as the norm from sellers?
They said that Mum and Dad aren't KC registered so the puppies can't be...?
There do seem to be quite a few advert for puppies that aren't KC registered - are they all likely to be "dodgy" in your opinion? Thanks for your advice.

Pet or otherwise all puppies deserve to have the best lives and their owners to. There is no good reason not to health test and every good reason to do it. Dogs don't need to be KC reg to have these tests and some people who breed cross breeds do actually bother to health test be it dna tests, hip and elbow scoring, eye tests and so on.

Do you really want to risk taking on a puppy who could come down with some of these genetic issues when actually the tests are cheap, roughly £50 each for DNA tests. Unleas you test you have no idea of the status of the dogs in question, if they are both carriers then a percentage of the litter could be affected. Some conditions are late onset so may not have presented themselves so both parents could be affected.
I don't know the conditions in staffords but I would not touch with a barge pole. Sounds like another byb out to churn out a litter or 2 to make money with no regard for health, temperament or type.
What we don't need is more byb Staffs as far too many end up in rescue. Good breeders will also do a contract and state in that they will take back a dog at any age for any reason to prevent it going into rescue.

Please contact one of the many Stafford breed clubs around the UK and ask for advice on breeders to contact who fully health test.

Thank you both, I really appreciate your advice. I know everything you've said makes sense! :-)

Don't be in a rush to find a puppy right now. Find a breeder a good one and get onto a waiting list

>Could it just be that they haven't had the Mum/Dad health checked as they are their pets? Or is this sort of health checking something that should be expected as the norm from sellers?

Unless dogs are tested for the hereditary health issues their breed is predisposed to then they shouldn't be bred from; the breeder is playing Russian Roulette with the pups' health and the owners' hearts.

>They said that Mum and Dad aren't KC registered so the puppies can't be...?

There are no good reasons why pedigree dogs aren't registered; they all involve something being wrong with them making them unsuitable to breed from, either for their own welfare (too young, too old etc) or the future wellbeing of their offspring. One of the parents could even have been stolen!
So walk away from this litter - it's too much of a gamble.

Just to add, puppies can't be registered if the bitch has had another litter that year, ie breed every season. So you could very well be supporting over breeding by buy this pup.

Breeding for pets or not, all breeding dogs should have basic health testing. Pet quality dogs aren't exempt from inherited health conditions nor do dogs have to be registered to get health testing done.

The breeder is a bad one and pulling all the tricks and lies in the book to lull you into a false sense of security and use those cute puppy faces so they can get your money. Once you've paid they won't be anywhere to be seen when health problems show up. It will cost you a lot of money and heart ache in the long run if you go ahead.

All dogs belonging to responsible breeders are Pets 365 days a year.

Some of those will be show dogs for some of those days.

A few whose owners have taken the trouble to learn all about their breed, the dogs in their dogs pedigrees, health and Genetics may go on to be bred from, for bitches on a maximum of 4 occasions, usually less, and only after undergoing Hereditary disease Health Testing, and have proved to be of correct Tempeament and conform to the breed standard in looks and character.

People who breed from their dogs simply because they cam reproduce are to be strongly avoided.

The pups will already be disadvantaged, and their lack of care will often be compounded by lack of care and knowledge rearing the litter properly re nutrition and socialisation in those vital early weeks.

Think of it like 'Cowboy.Builders' or dodgy car mechanics.

There are loads of staffies in rescues, especially urban rescue centres - and you'll know what you're getting there, as they will be a bit older usually and any behavioural or medical issues will have had a chance to show. Much cheaper than a puppy these days too!

Please also bear in mind if Mum and Dad aren't KC registered they may not be full staffies. Staffies are probably one of the worst breeds for having a bit of something else mixed in by backyard breeders, you could end up with a pup that would fall foul of the DDA, by looking like a pitbull x. If this happened your beloved pet could be seized by the police. a 5 generation pedigree can easily be made up.

Thank you all. Please can I ask another question: if a breeder tells you the dam and sire have been health checked and points you to the KC website for the proof, how do I know the dogs are really those ones? They could have just found the names and be pretending to have used them - I guess they should show me their KC registered papers for their dog? Thanks.

Absy:  > if a breeder tells you the dam and sire have been health checked and points you to the KC website for the proof, how do I know the dogs are really those ones?

Every breeder should point you to the KC website as well as email you a copy of the official KC paperwork.  As a safe guard, when prospective new owners visit for the first time
I have a hand held scanner which I use as part of the two way interview which I use to scan Dam & Sire in their presence.  A scanner costs around £50/£60 and something I believe every Breeder should invest in.

>Please can I ask another question: if a breeder tells you the dam and sire have been health checked and points you to the KC website for the proof, how do I know the dogs are really those ones?

That's a good question. I recently had the experience of someone I sold a puppy to (with endorsement on), breeding her to the dog next door and then advertising the pups as being out of MY dog. (Her dog's mother.) Presumably so people could look up the full health testing on my dog and believe that's who the mum is. I was livid.

I think really you want to be relying on more sources than just one. For example, if the person shows their dogs, does their name and dog's name come up in show results if you google them? Are they generally reputable in other ways they appear online? If you google their affix, can you get in touch with people who have a pup from previous litters? If they used an outside stud dog, can you check out the website for the stud dog and do they sound reputable (reputable stud dog owners won't let their dogs be used by bitch owners who are dodgy)? And so on. Don't just rely on one source of info, do some digging and use google and FB a lot.

In a breed as numerous as the staffie, there is absolutely no reason on earth to breed from anything less than the very best.  So registered, health tested etc.  Anything less is not worth looking at.

Was a time when a KC registered puppy would command a higher price than a non-KC registered puppy.   That's all gone.  BYBs are advertising their litters, without being KC registered (for whatever reason) at the same, or higher prices than KC registered puppies.

I guess the average pet owner really doesn't care - how many of our puppies were sold, with me signing the relevant KC Transfer paper so the new owner could transfer their new puppies into their name with the KC.    In fact one wonders how many puppies remained in my name, as breeder, for their entire lives.

A health check is good, but that's all it is - a check on the overall health of the puppy.   Not proof that the puppy/parents have been tested for all the problems in their specific breed.   That's quite different.

Given the breed, I'd go to your local Rescue (or even Breed Rescue) and adopt.   These are not the times to be buying direct from a breeder as for the most part, reputable breeders have curtailed their breeding plans.   Leaving the field open to the BYB who has put prices into orbit.

MamaBas:> one wonders how many puppies remained in my name, as breeder, for their entire lives.

This is so right.  According to KC I own over 30 dogs.  21 of them are over 2 years old and have been with their new parents since 8/10 weeks of age and a further 7 left here almost a year ago.  The fact all were microchipped and as the breeder I changed their chip numbers to their new parent details means the new owners will be contacted should something happen.  Seems the KC charge made to change ownership won't be paid if it doesn't have to be.

I can never understand why someone takes.the trouble to purchase  a well.bred puppy.and.then not change ownership
I must be odd but actually enjoyed receiving the paperwork when it was all done saying pup was now official mine

I have over 40 still in my name, though more than half are probably deceased.

Furriefriends: I agree, makes no sense , No your not odd!  It has been my priority when returning home with my new Puppy in the past to do the changeover, buy a frame and hang it on my office wall for all to see.  Speaking with some of my fellow Breeders and looking at Brainless' last post it seems to happen a lot

I have to admit I've been guilty of this in the past. My last golden I never transferred the KC paperwork to my name. Bought 16 years ago now. She was chipped to me as that seemed more pressing. I didn't show or breed so I felt it made no difference. I was more ignorant then. I kept all her paperwork and the sales contract so felt I had enough evidence to use to prove she was legally my dog.

I just wanted a puppy from fully health tested parents and all the breeders that met this criteria were all kennel club registered their puppies. Otherwise I wasn't fused as long as the parents weren't too related.

Knowing what I know now, I'd never buy a pure bred without kc papers because the breeder is most likely hiding something. I plan to show in future so all dogs will be transferred to me.

Most of the friends I know have lost their pedigree certificates long ago never mind transferred them into their name. I think most people just don't really care about them that much. Hence the reason BYBs able to con people with non registered dogs and the expulsion in popularity of anything poodle crossed.

> I can never understand why someone takes.the trouble to purchase  a well.bred puppy.and.then not change ownership

To be honest I can see why some don't transfer the KC reg. If they are not interested in any of the activities that would require the KC reg to be transferred or not interested in breeding then paying the kc to change it into their name might not seem worth it to them.

Personally i agree and I would still do it even if it wasn't interested in activities.