Should I consider buying a puppy from a litter when the mother is said to have died during birth of the litter by c section ?

I would want to know a lot about rearing regime.

Are pups being hand reared or with a foster mother (the latter would be my preference).

It will be very important that the pups receive proper socialisation with other dogs.

Does the breeder have long experience of breeding.

Would not be keen if the litter are reared solely by breeder with no other canine imput in their upbringing.

For me, I'd probably not want a puppy from a litter like that but it would depend on a few things...

Not being raised by mother will potentially affect the puppies' personality development, response to stress and ability to self-soothe and behaviour/dog-dog interactions.

I'd consider what the breed is - if it is a breed which has temperament issues or is a guarding breed or is known to be spooky or fearful then definitely I'd walk away.

I'd also want to know if the pups were raised with a lot of contact with other well-balanced adult dogs once they were 4wks+, so they could gain from those interactions and learn about dog-dog interactions, or if they were essentially alone as a litter.

Research shows that puppies who have 'good' mothers (meaning - lots of licking) are raised to have a better response to stress (lower cortisol levels, more ability to self-soothe) than puppies raised by 'bad' mothers who neglect their pups. (Which is what you can consider being entirely hand-raised to be.) See: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/1997/09/extra-licking-makes-relaxed-rats

Depends on where you trust that the breeder is reputable. Could be that they've had a tragic loss or that they aren't reputable and are hiding the mother, poor tempermant, illegal imported puppies or even a stolen litter. They could be perfectly responsible and lovely people. Dams can die during birth, it's a sad fact.

It’s an English bull dog. Other dogs are around including a 13 month old from the previous litter and a Newfoundland. Not sure what the interaction is between all though.

There is no foster mother.

The worry is the litter were to go to the owner of the sire but they backed out due to Covid. Apparently. Not sure if this is true or not.

Breeder said they have bred a few times but not sure for how long.

It sounds like we should maybe rethink.

Trying to find good breeders of English bull dogs in Scotland is not easy. I’ve contacted a few on this website.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

Wheras the concept is extremely interesting, I don't quite see how an experiment on rats carried out 23 years ago have any relevance to bitches and puppies.

I would give that litter a miss.  It all sounds rather 'suspect'.   It is also a common way of selling a litter from a puppy farm- you buy whole litter abroad , ie Ireland and then pass them off as tragic litter whos mum died to explain the lack of mum around. 
Its not normal for a stud dog owner to have the litter either - thats a weird one.
If they HAVE bred a few times then does that mean the unfortunate mother of this litter was repeatably bred from?  Or the Newfoundland?  most decent breeders concentrate on one breed. Either way it doesn't sound ideal.
English Bulldogs sadly can have a legion of inherited health problems so I would be very wary of any not quite right litter as the heartbreak and cost of a sick pup would be terrible.   It all sounds a bit iffy from what you are saying so personally I'd leave it .  There will be other litters

Mother died in birth:  Goldmali & weimed have hit the nail on the head!  If the Litter has been orphaned, irresepective the Breeder should be able to show you the Dam's official KC Paperwork.  Also, there is a 13 month old Pup there from a previous Litter? That would be an alarm bell for me! the Dam of both has had no time to recover from the previous Litter and was put back into pup with this Litter. When you add in the number of Dogs & Puppies that are being stolen all over the UK. it just doesn't fit well with me at all...
Then the claim the Puppy was intended to go to the owner of the Sire.  There is an old fashioned way when the Sire owner has 'pick of the Litter' rather than the Damn owner paying a Stud Fee but that doesn't add up either if the Sire Owner doesn't want the Puppy. Head for the Hills IMO.  Nothing makes sense.

Thank you everyone for replying. We are going to leave this litter and look elsewhere.

We appreciate you all taking the time to reply.

Interesting thread for me as we have a rescue staffie x foxhound, the whole litter was hand reared by experienced rescue staff when the dam rejected the pups after C-section. We adopted our pup at 10 weeks old, he is now over two years. He is a lovely boy but not like my other dogs! He is in turn very independent, no obvious separation anxiety, and then very clingy. In the evenings he finds it hard to settle and sits on my feet whining. He growls and runs away if he is touched in a 'ticklish' way, so we have a grooming mitt which comforts him - otherwise we have to use firm stroking or scratches (I used to work with children with sensory processing disorder and he is very similar). He is very easily upset and wees on the floor in fear - for example this happened recently when I blew my nose hard! He needs a 'suckie blanket' or soft bed to suck on to soothe himself. He is not always good at respecting other dogs' boundaries, but we have other dogs and this has improved a lot over time. I am making him sound like a very odd boy - he is a lovely dog, very friendly, loves everyone, very active, a bit too distractible to train to be totally consistent but very intelligent. I wouldn't necessarily choose another like him but he has been very rewarding and brings lots of laughter to our family.

Not wanting to give advice where it wasn't asked but do make sure you have thoroughly researched the health problems endemic in bulldogs. It is almost impossible to get one without at least one of the issues, including a huge nose roll which obscures their vision, impedes breathing and gets stinky with infections and fungi if not cleaned regularly, breathing difficulties, obesity, joint problems and hip dysplasia - it's really not a breed I'd want to own. You're purchasing a dog destined to die around 8yo (average age of death) and to cost you a lot of money in vet bills and/or insurance, in the meantime.

Just to add to 1234 it seems many can't self whelp and breeders expect to do c sections

Thank you everyone - these replies have really helped us as we try to find a dog/breed that’s right for us.

Could anyone recommend another breed with less health problems who is laid back and doesn’t need too much exercise?

Not saying this to be negative so hope it doesn’t come across that way, but what you might lose with a breed that needs ‘less’ exercise is that you will have to make up for it with companionship and mental stimulation. That would be the same for a Bulldog. Most dogs will take as much as you can give them and will take a few years to settle down regardless.

I suggest you look at the toy/companion breeds if you are set on a puppy as they were bred for the purpose of staying close. My grandmother also kept Yorkies and Scottish Terriers for many years into old age and they were happy with lots of love and playtime on the days the dog walker didn’t visit. Good luck.

> Could anyone recommend another breed with less health problems who is laid back and doesn’t need too much exercise?

What are your exact circumstances? Do you have a garden? Large or small, fenced or not? Can you walk at all outside? If yes, realistically how much exercise would you want to do each day? Would you be interested in training, mind games etc? These answers would help people narrow down a recommendation for you. Not all dogs need hours and hours of walking each day and even the breeds that will happily walk all day may be just as happy with a zoom in the garden and some brain games. Do you have to have a puppy or would you consider an older dog? Pups are hard work, of even the easiest breeds. If you got an older ex racing greyhound for example they generally have very few health issues and are more than happy to lie on the sofa for 23 1/2 hours a day.

> we have a rescue staffie x foxhound

Blueprint most of your dogs weird things are probably down to his cross, why on earth would someone do this! The independence of the foxhound fighting with staffie neediness and whining would drive most people mad

sight hound. retired greyhounds make fantastic pets - short burst of exercise couple of times a day and rest of day asleep on your sofa or across your lap. , clean affectionate healthy breed and stylish looking too. come in vast range of colours. Rescues sadly always have them .

draw backs are you need a properly fenced garden to give them a mad half hour as they are often not good at recall so not ones to casually let off lead in the park, can have high prey drive towards small animals they don't live with too so care not allow free around vulnerable small creatures necessary  , lead walking they will walk as much as you want to but don't demand mad amounts.  They do not like the cold/wet so best to factor in buying a good coat and if you ever want them off your bed/sofa best buy a really good bed for them too.

Many of the giant breeds actually need less exercise or are at least slower-moving and lower energy when taking their exercise. They do die relatively young as well, but should have a much nicer existence until they do die with less chronic health issues in their life before that.

Are you looking specifically for a short-coated dog?

Or again, toy breeds are bred to be companions and not to need miles of exercise every day - if you'd be ok with a smaller size.

I think we'd need more info on your circumstances and requirements and what you like in a dog...

Quite agree.

My own breed is a tracking hunting breed, with the stamina to hunt all day. Yet hunting season in countries where they traditionally work is only a few weeks in the Autumn.

I was surprised to find when I came into the breed that they had a predominance of older owners, as well as families.

It is because they are very adaptable, generally not constantly on the go. They have an off switch.

Contrast this with herding breeds that would be needed to work all day every day.

So once mature an hour is plenty for mine, but they can cope with more, and even days where a short half hour would be enough.

So original job may give you an idea.

Even in some companion breeds energy levels can vary considerably.

A breed I have long admired is the Tibetan Spaniel. Long lived, healthy, shortish muzzle, but not extreme.

There are well over 200 breeds recognised by the kennel club. Think outside the box.

Less well known, breeds tend to have a small deficated group of nreedets and fanciers. So your more likely to find reputable breeders who will help determine if the breed will suit you.

You may have to wait, but it's well worth it for the quality and suppirt.

trouble is a lot of the breeds the internet says are low exercise is because they are unhealthy and incapable of exercise .  I really would not want to buy a breed of dog that is destined to die below 10. Its depressing. 

have a think about how you feel about barking too- a lot of the little lap dogs can be a bit relentless plus the really bred to be tiny dogs also can have health issues .

ps all puppies are trouble, they are not like the lovely calm adult version but instead manic little chewers who do the wall of death round your living room, pee in unexpected places, chew up your phone etc etc - this is not breed specific- they ALL do it !

Dawn H; Alternative Breed:  The Rhodesian Ridgeback is a stunning large breed. They are intelligent, powerful, handsom dogs with a short coat which needs very little grooming (maybe once a weeK).  They require roughly the same exercise and mental stimulation as a Labrador Retriever and live to over 10 yrs of age. They can suffer from sinus/nasal problems but all in all they are not known to have an increased number of problems than any other breed re hip/elbow dysplasia. Hope this helps.

Just a heads up re Rhodesian Ridgeback's health issues.

The Dermoid Sinus is in no way a nasal sinus condition. It is a possible genetic condition(no test yet).

"The dermoid sinus in Rhodesian ridgebacks is a congenital defect caused by incomplete separation between the skin and spinal cord, after closure of the embryonic neural tube  Several modes of inheritance have been proposed, but the exact mechanism is not established"

Breeding dogs should be examined for Dermoid Sinus & TBH all RRs should be checked as puppies as it be found from a fairly early age

Rhodesian Ridgebacks are VERY VERY active, I certainly wouldn't recommend them to someone not wanting to exercise a dog much who was previously considering a bulldog! They are also large, strong and very assertive and forthright with other dogs. Not an easy ride.

onetwothreefour> Rhodesian Ridgeback as a Breed: There have been very diverse suggestions to the OP mostly foused on the number of health issues or lack of them.  From Toy type to those with very dense coats needing a lot grooming and huge amounts of one to one attention required has been suggested.  The Rhodesian Ridgeback doesn't require huge amounts of either and in relation to health problems and longevity, they are a fantastic breed. Can't imagine an owner looking at a bulldog would consider a toy type just as they hadn't considered a large breed, The OP asked for alternative suggestions based on the full criteria.

I was thinking the same thing about Greyhounds weimed. Could be a good shout!

Ann R Smith:Dermoid Nasal Condition: There is no doubt it is a genetic condition and a serious one.  If someone buys a Puppy without the relevant health tests performed on the parents then that is a chance they take however if there is no test then how would people make an informed decision? Is there any dog breed that has no genetic health problems? I'm sure not but surely a breed that have fewer and  be able to be tested at earlier age should be considered?

I think you may have missed the post about not too much exercise A ridgeback needs more than a stroll each day more like at least 2 hours including free running which then brings secure facilities into the equation also.

Oh dear someone hasn't grasped the FACT that Dermoid Sinuses are not found in the nasal area of RRs. The word sinus means TUBE & Dermoid Sinuses are NOT in anyway connected to the nasal sinuses found in the head.

Hopefully the op will.come back with  more information so we can give more accurate suggestions.

Satincollie:  Not too much exercise Yip they need more than a stroll with free running included - more like that of a Labrador Retriever. I am biased to the large breed and 2 hrs per day doesn't seem a lot to me but a toy/lap type is a long way from a bull dog too.  So much for a prospective new owner to consider when choosing a suitable breed.

Ann R Smith:  Sinus Problems: So what is JME? I believed that was the sinus problem. Sure you will correct me if wrong and gladly learn from you for future reference.

Just a quick note that not all toy dogs are low exercise. I’ve only had the one papillon but they are a pretty active breed. My River would happily run for hours if you let him, we usually walk at least an hour a say with some off lead ball play and plenty of active play at home.

They don’t NEED that much to be fair (Riv’s in agility training so I want him really fit) but they aren’t couch potatoes by any means.

http://www.animalabs.com/shop/dogs/juvenile-myoclonic-epilepsy-rhodesian-ridgeback-type-jme/ 
I assume this is jme that u refer to hoggie.  Not  the  dermoid sinus problem but a type of epilepsy. 
I am sure someone with knowledge will confirm

I love Rhodesian Ridgebacks but I would not have one if wanted low exercise.  Plus they are not a dog for the inexperienced.  A far more powerful dog then a labrador with far more training required .   Ones round here are muscle bound and are walked a LOT.  I know from speaking to owners they were quite a handful when young and really do become unmanageable if do not get their required exercise.  
I think from fact the OP was looking at bulldog they are wanting minimal exercise required.  Thats why I think sight hounds more fit the bill- healthy usually- couple of 20 minute sessions bombing round garden plus couple of not too strenuous pavement walks and a sighthound is sorted.

Juvenile Myoclonic Epilepsy (JME) is a genetic condition not related to any form of sinus & for which there now is a DNA test

JME in RRs is"caused by a 4-bp deletion in the exon 2 of the DIRAS1 gene, causing a frameshift and a loss of the stop signal. Research among other breeds affected with epilepsy revealed that this mutation is specific only for Rhodesian Ridgeback breed. A carrier rate of 15% was determined."

So again not linked to the nasal sinus

Ann R Smith:  My apolgies Ann.  I have learned something new tonight! Glad there is a DNA for JME.  Are there any other health issues withing RR breed which should be taken into consideration?

> I am biased to the large breed and 2 hrs per day doesn't seem a lot to me

Most bulldogs would be a half hour on a cool day.

I think the General public would consider anything over an hour 'a lot' of excersise.

My own personal belief is any healthy adult dog of any breed is entitled to an hours excersise.

Those breeds who can't manage that are inherently unhealthy.

I agree Brainless. Pretty much every bulldog I’ve met has a fantastic character but far too many of them have health problems that stop them enjoying what I’d consider a normal dog life.

My cousin has one and he’s cost her thousand for operations to help him breathe better. Even with that he doesn’t like walks and will plonk himself down and refuse to move if you try to get him to go more than down the road and back.

That’s not how a dog should be.

Having owned both retrievers and RR simultaneously , I wouldn't say that they require a similar level of exercise or mental situational. Obviously there is variation between individuals but on average RR are more intelligent but more likely to use that intelligence for their own purposes rather than tricks. Just a short list of things my dogs taught themselves: opening paddle bins, opening push down bins, (and I'm not talking about knocking bins over either) opening doors (every door hand to be locked in our house with our RR around), opening food containers. Also wouldn't consider them low excerise if you don't want they to destroy your house, probably more medium to high energy level depending on the individual.

Just looking at the reaaon the rr was bred as a hunting dog thay is very different from the origins of labrador and other retrievers. 
Lovely dogs or at least all.that I have met but I wouldn't compare.their needs to retrievers . Or.consider suggesting one to some one looking for either a retriever and definitely not a bull.dog
My thoughts would also.go to a retired greyhound . U can go.to the rescues who.are happy for.you to meet them amd.find out more in person.  Even with covid19 restrictions walking them and chatting to people is still.possible

I've no doubt he was an accident - but then so was my youngest daughter, and no less precious for that! He may be a weird dog but he's our weird dog and we love him.

RR as a Breed vs Labrador & Border Collies - Intelligence, Hunting Ability, Exercise Requirements & Longevity  - Are they comparable?.;[/i

RR - Bob, my Sister in Law's Dog - when his owner tied a long skipping rope around 4 table legs while Bob watched only twice, the dog worked out how to wind it back to release it. (very smart). Hunting ability - other medium and large animals. Exercise - 2 hrs per day. Longevity - over 10 years.

Lab - Dixie, learned how to press the tap on the water butt upwards with her nose. She didn't drink anything, she just loved water and would jump around in the puddle it made. Hunting ability - pheasant & game, rabbits & other rodents.
Just look at what they can achieve as an Assistance Dog and also a Drugs tracer dog when they are introduced to the scent to hunt them out. (very smart).Exercise - 2 hrs per day. Longevity - over 10 years.

Border Collie:  Breeze:  She loved to play with a burst football which she flattened into a bowl shape.  When thrown a tennis ball, she would catch in the football and then toss it back to you from within it. (very smart)
She was also an absolute expert at hunting out badgers, foxes, sheep & lambs buried in snow during extremely severe winter weather. Exercise 2 hrs per day. Longevity - over 10 years.

All three breeds are large and not necessarily comparable to a Boxer any more than a toy breed is to a Boxer... all dogs are to be admired in my book - even the quirky ones.

Erm the OP was looking at Bulldogs not boxers not sure where the boxer came into the thread???? Border Collies are actually a medium breed but yes very very clever and may or may not add the need for grooming depending on coat type. But it isn't only physical exercise that needs taken into account, don't take into account their need for mental stimulation at your peril.

satincollie: Apologies yes Bulldog - that was my 'dippy' moment when typing the last response.  I was responding to a previous post relating to intelligence of the RR vs Lab vs Border Collie.

A Bulldog is a very sturdy breed too and heavy boned who don't like to exercise with susceptiblity to many, many health issues. However I have never known a Puppy who isn't physically and mentally challenging. This is overcome by socialising and being taught manners at an early age.

I have only ever had male short haired Collies, large and strong who have the ability to work cattle. All my Labs are on the large boned side too and Bob RR is around the same size as the others so either he is small for an RR or my guys are oversized.

Must admit, never had a problem with keeping them mentally stimulated.  They love kong toys, anything that squeaks or rattles and certainly ball games which I thought all Owners would involve themselves in.

Did other posters suggest Toy Breeds as a possibility which is at the opposite end of the spectrum too- think everyone was trying to suggest pro & cons with Breeds they were familiar with.

We really do need to know what the op can offer any dog to make.realistic suggestions otherwise we are fishing in the dark.

Thanks for clarifying satin collie I had been scratching my head as to.where.the boxer came.from.lol

Thank you all for your posts. It has been incredibly enlightening. To elaborate, we have a small holding with 14 acres, then a farm of 750 acres around us. So lots of pheasants around roaming freely, we also have highland cattle and about to get Pygmy goats. My husband is at hone all day every day. I work. But he is constantly busy, with no time for 2 hour dog walks. We were looking for a dog just happy to wander around the grounds with my husband. We did have a cocker spaniel who was amazing but developed Heath problems and we lost him a few years ago. I’ve never heard of a Tibetan spaniel. But will look this up.
I hope this helps as there have been many suggestions about breeds but this may focus things more now you have a bit more information about us.

Thank you all - this forum is a fantastic resource.

What about a cavalier spaniel? They are happy to exercise if you want to offer it and also not to, if you are busy. Great little companions and very affectionate and intelligent.

More grooming requirements than a bulldog and you need to be careful with health there as well.

Or there's the lagotto romagnolo, which basically looks like a cockerpoo-ish(!). Not sure how much hair you want...

By the way, you might be interested in a book called 'Choosing the Perfect Puppy' by Pippa Mattinson - she goes through many different breeds and spells out the pros and cons, including health.

Re health issues with RRs, which are generally a pretty healthy breed. Most of mine (and I have owned multiple RRs for the last 35 years) have lived til about 12:

Dermoid Sinus - an issue that also affects other breeds (and people too!) but is more prevalent in ridged breeds. You should be safe buying from a reputable breeder as puppies will have been regularly examined for this condition by themselves and preferably another experienced breeder as well. DO NOT accept a story that the puppies have been checked by the breeder's vet - it is not unknown for vets to miss a sinus in a puppy. I have found sinuses that vets have missed :(

We don't have much of a problem with hip and elbow dysplasia, but any dogs used for breeding should be properly scored.

JME - juvenile myoclonic epilepsy - a DNA test has been produced for this in the last few years, fortunately it's a simple recessive so one parent MUST be tested clear

DM - degenerative myelopathy - breeding dogs should be DNA tested for as RRs have been affected

I also test for EOAD - early onset adult deafness
Blue dilute - this non-standard colouring is not a serious health issue, but dilutes are more prone to skin issues so it's best avoided

Bloat / torsion - being a large and deep chested breed, RRs are vulnerable to this. In 35 years of multiple RR ownership I have experienced it only once, with a 12 year old male. I knew he was at risk as some of his family members had suffered from it. Fortunately he was a very fit and strong 12 year old and I got him to the vet very quickly and he made a full recovery from surgery and lived another 1 1/2 happy years.

Interesting you should mention bloat in RR’s, I was wondering whether to mention this or not as I didn’t know the prevalence of bloat within the breed.
I’m aware of an RR suffering quite suddenly and for no apparent reason with bloat who although was rushed to the vets immediately unfortunately didn’t make it. She had welcomed some visitors and then was lying quietly elsewhere. An hour later strange noises were heard from the room she had taken herself to and the owners found her struggling and rushed to the vets nearby. Amazing how quickly it progressed.