Hi Everyone

I have an 18 month old lab and I would like to breed her. There are several reasons for this, but it is mainly driven by a love of dogs and the breed, and a desire to use the knowledge I have to develop the breed further. All being well I would like to become someone considered a “good breeder” of a long line of dogs, some of which will become my family dogs as the years go on.

This plan started 2.5 years ago when I researched breeders before buying my girl. It has developed by me putting a lot of effort into training my girl and trying to make sure she is growing up well adjusted and happy.

As we get closer to the potential breeding time I’m now getting her health checks done. I’m off back to visit her breeder for a chat about my plans and to find out if he is happy to act as mentor (she is endorsed so still up to her breeder if I can go ahead). I’ve bought books, I’m reading as much as I can and I currently have what I think is a healthy dose of anxiety about all the things I need to learn and do to get this right.

So my question to everyone is what do you think it takes to become a good breeder? What one thing would you change or tell yourself if you could go back to the start of your journey as a breeder?

Thanks!

To my mind, you need to be breeding for a purpose. Not just to produce more dogs. That means: For a performance sport. For gundog training and work. For therapy purposes. For conformation.

If you can't say you are breeding puppies for these specific purposes and able to place many of them in homes where they will be able to go on to fulfil these purposes, then you are not a 'good' breeder. The world doesn't need more dogs.

Firstly, when you say health checks, that's different to actual health testing.  Health tests for Labradors are hip scores, elbow grading, BVA eye cert and the DNA tests, and of those I'd want to know the status for PRA, CNM, EIC, HNPK and SD2. 

The best place to start is the person who bred your girl, they should be the ones to advise you, and if they have placed any endorsements then they will tell you what needs to be done to have them lifted.  They should know the pedigree and have an idea on what is the best direction, depending on what you want to achieve with a litter going forwards.  I have Labradors and try to breed for dogs that are good correct conformation and that can be worked, so a bit in the middle.

I totally agree with the advice about going back to the breeder for their opinion of the bitch, how she has developed (and then testing etc).  Assuming the breeder is knowledgeable, reputable and had been around the breed for a significantly long time.   Good breeders put endorsements on immature stock for good reason (not that it prevents the bitch from being bred, just the puppies can't be KC registered).   

We started the 'wrong way round', buying two males (a year apart in age), showing both - the second one was bought because the first wasn't really a good show dog.   After that, rather than showing dogs others had bred, I made the decision to wanted to breed something to show, myself.   So we bought our foundation bitch and when old enough, she was mated.   And even then my original plan to mate her to the second male changed as I learnt more about what I had.

After that, we only bred for our next generation so over the years, we didn't have that many litters.

My view of what makes a good breeder is somebody who does not buy a pup and soon plan to breed from it. It's somebody who buys a pup, becomes interested/falls in love with the breed so joins a breed club or two, starts showing and/or working (depending on breed and personal interest), studies their dog's pedigree just because it interests them, gets to know people active in the breed, and then after a few years the thought occurs to them that maybe it would be nice to breed a litter as by now they are passionate about the breed, have gained knowledge and want more involvement. They may find that their existing bitch isn't good enough for breeding (the whole picture needs to be assessed, not just health tests but what the dog has achieved, what it can bring to the breed etc) and then they will probably approach a breeder whose dogs they have come to admire, and enquire about purchasing a pup for showing or working and possibly future breeding. It's possible to get lucky with the first one being good enough but if it was bought as a pet, that's not a guarantee. So to me it's a gradual process and it starts with becoming actively involved within the breed.

Hello Goldmali

This is pretty exactly what I did 27 years ago.  Since then, I have bred a companion breed passionately and carefully.  I have sold my puppies to well-vetted people who wanted just that:  companions.  Most of these wonderful people were people who, for  one reason or another, would not have been able to cope with the unknowns and challenges involved in the adoption of a dog from a shelter, as admirable and desirable as that is.  No, these have been people who needed to know what to expect from a particular breed so that they could determine whether that dog would suit their family, life-style, expectations, etc. 

I am ending my breeding career right now, due to my advancing age.  I have provided a lot of wonderful people with pretty wonderful dogs over the years.  This gives me deep pleasure and satisfaction.

Why is it considered here on this forum  wrong, disgraceful, greedy, irresponsible, and a whole host of other negatives to breed well-raised dogs from careful matings for people who will love and care for them, people who want that joy in their lives and are not in a position to go to the nearest shelter and deal with a rescue dog from Romania?  Here where I live, we do not breed solely for a definable or practical "purpose", or at least not in the companion breeds.  I am violently opposed to animal cruelty and neglect, and that is why I have ripped my guts out for over 25 years to ensure the best possible future for my puppies and for the people to whom I have entrusted them.

One question I have had over the years on this forum but never expressed, as I knew I would get my head chopped off, is:  If you only breed a female "once", what do you do with all the females you ultimately accrue?

I know I will be attacked here, but I will probably sign off from the forum in any case, as I will no longer have any more puppies and will simply live with my family of 6 dogs until we are all no longer here.  I am 77 years old.

I'm not sure I understand completely about breeding a female once, and what you will do with all the bitch pups, do you mean you'd keep them all? 

What you're doing doesn't sound greedy or irresponsible, but there are plenty of breeders out there who look as though they're doing things the right way, so health testing, vetting potential puppy owners etc, and then really not knowing where their pup/dogs end up as they don't maintain contact, so they don't know if their dogs get passed from pillar to post eventually, and even bred on from just that pups probably won't be registered.  But every single breeder has to start from somewhere, I got told to breed on from a bitch with poor health test results as my foundation bitch, by some other experienced breeders, but chose not to start off having to try and hide things.  There is so much conflicting advice out there, so as a new comer, I'd have to say start out how you mean to go on, if you don't know about good correct conformation learn about it, same with health, and, if it's relevant, ability, and be honest with yourself about your dogs, we all own the best ones. 

I've had three litters in 8 years, and am considering keeping back more pups in the next few years, simply because I am in a position to be able to do so at the moment with my lifestyle.  And, while I've got the opportunity to make my hobby with my dogs more of a priority.  The one thing that always concerns me is finding a home for a pup that is the home you want it to be, that they will ask if they need your help, even if it means they have to give a pup up at any point of it's life, back to you as the breeder.  I don't want my pups to be homed on without my knowledge, but would not be averse to it happening with my knowledge under the right circumstances, eg family break up.  I count my success as a breeder in the knowledge that I've tried to breed good, healthy examples of a breed, but equally that they are in good homes that haven't wanted a puppy on a whim and aren't clued up about how to cope with a pup.

<I'm not sure I understand completely about breeding a female once, and what you will do with all the bitch pups, do you mean you'd keep them all?

No, I mean that if you take the advice generally expressed here on the forum, you would breed with a female only once.  So if you want to breed another litter after that, it would stand to reason that you would have to acquire another female to do so!  The first female is perhaps by that time 3 years old, you've got another female who, when around 2 years old, will have her "one" litter, and then you've got two females with whom you can no longer breed, so you'd have to get a third female in order to make litter number 3.  What happens to all these females?  My females are all members of my family, each having several litters, and they remain with me for their entire lives.

Ahhhh, I see what you mean.  I hadn't noticed that advice on here I must admit; with the UK KC the maximum litters from a bitch now is four, but for me, I don't need to take four litters from a bitch, maybe two at the most.  I did two repeat matings from my bitch (now spayed), which, I might have argued once wasn't really a good way to breed, as you're essentially producing lots of brothers and sisters just from two litters, but what I found was that it gave me a chance to see how those pups matured, and confirmed to me what a good mating it had been.  I hadn't had the time to keep a bitch pup from the first litter, but didn't want to leave it any later for a first litter either, and the pup I wanted to keep back has done very well in Germany, passed her retriever test, health tests and conformation test, and will be having her first litter in Spring 2021.  I'm planning on having two litters from the bitch pup I kept back from the second litter, and may well have a third pup from someone who is planning to breed on from their bitch from that litter as well.  So there are always options to keeping pups from variations of matings, I could even buy back a pup from the breeder in Germany, and I'll certainly stay in touch to see how they get on with their breeding plans. 

I think there are too many variables to say exactly what a good breeder is, you couldn't limit it to they only have 'x' amount of litters, they do these health tests, and so on, but I think when you're looking at what makes a good breeder what they actually do speaks for itself.  With my breed, which is a breed that is still worked currently, I like to see that they have ability, but then there are plenty of breeders who just aren't interested in that side and don't want to work their dogs at all.  Which is fine, as long as they understand what that ability is, and they can recognise whether their dogs might be capable of it.  The same with conformation, a breeder who doesn't at all understand correct conformation may well be breeding pups that are more prone to orthopaedic disorders as they grow, just because the breeder didn't know that the shape can affect health, and how to look at improving and producing a healthy and correct conformation.  Obviously with a companion breed you still prove they make good companions when they go to their new homes and fulfill that very role; but there are obviously breeds now that you will never be able to prove they could do what they were bred to do, as these things are no longer considered acceptable in this day and age.

I think that to be a "good breeder", one must first possess what is known as "feu sacré", an overwhelming passion for the miracle of those new little beings one has decided to bring into the world.  This is the only thing which can carry one through the hard bits. The sheer wonderment of the birth (if scary!), the humility one experiences at being blessed with these new lives, each one an individual, each one deserving of the best possible life, the conviction that one would do anything to keep them safe, to keep them healthy and to find the right family for each one:  these and the feeling that these babies are incredibly precious must be paramount!

Assuming this is in place, one much be sure to be realistic and well-informed about what it takes to breed in terms of responsibility, hard work, space, infrastructure, stability, back-ups in case of emergencies and KNOWLEDGE.  It's not easy, but if you have that feu sacré, the rewards are tremendous.

We all have to start somewhere as a breeder.  Here are some of my thoughts..

Can we assume your bitch is from good lines and parents etc have been fully health tested.  If so, I would approach her breeder and ask if she will mentor you to advise on what health tests to have done and also on potential stud dogs.

I believe to be a good breeder, you need to truly love your dog and the breed and do all you can not to have a mating that will be detrimental to the breed.  You need to have the time to speak to potential new puppy owners, and provide them with lifetime support.  In writing this, you realise quite how much there is to being a good breeder and keeping your bitch happy, fit and healthy.  Be prepared to write off 4+ months of your life while you deal with matings, whelping and rearing of a litter.  Have time to deal with the unprecedented number of enquiries we currently have too. 

Ensure you have the space for a litter to be born into and as they grow - you have no say in the number of puppies born and potentially a dozen puppies from a large breed takes a lot of time and energy to keep clean, fed, watered and given suitable space to play in etc.

A good breeder doesn't happen overnight, it may take many years and you have recommendations from either others in the breed, previous puppy owners etc

A lot to think about and I wish you luck

>I have bred a companion breed passionately and carefully.  I have sold my puppies to well-vetted people who wanted just that:  companions. 

This is a purpose. Especially for a toy dog or small breed, whose original purpose and function has always been to be a lapdog or companion.

>we do not breed solely for a definable or practical "purpose", or at least not in the companion breeds

Yes, you do...

Not sure why you have singled out rescue dogs from Romania as being the only dogs in shelters. Is this the case in your country the only rescue dogs originate from Romamia ?( my Rommie came to me as a puppy BTW)

In my eyes a good breeder is one who aims to breed better quality & healthier dogs with some purpose in life, whether it is for work, activities or companion.

I have a friend who for over 40 years bred Jack Russells( not kc reg) he is a farmer & mostof his pups go as ratters or pets. Over the 40 odd years his dogs temperaments have vastly improved with no loss of their work drive. No longer the ankle snapping yapping JR, instead a biddable intelligent little dog, which is equalling at home ratting, doing agility etc or just being a very loving companion. He rarely takes more than 1 litter from his bitches nor breed from them under 3 years of age & usually breeds only when he needs to continue his line. He doesn't have vast numbers of dogs neither does he rehome his oldies( some living well into their late teens) No kennels either. Yes he does health test including hips & elbows & eyes & his dogs have good results

Breeding purely to produce pets & not trying to improve the quality of the dogs produced is not good breeding, sadly the public do not understand this.

Breeding like owning dogs should be viewed as a privilege not a god given right

<Not sure why you have singled out rescue dogs from Romania as being the only dogs in shelters. Is this the case in your country the only rescue dogs originate from Romamia ?

No, of course not.  Just as an example.  Let's not get stuck there, because that was really not the point of my message.

Most breeders will most likely get rid of any excess in their view bitches.
Mine stay for life female or male I keep them whether bred from or not.
The current dogs I have probably won't be bred from so these are the last of my line.

I completely agree - I keep my oldies and currently have a 10 year old + 2 teenagers!!  If I was of a mind to rehome them, I could have 3 more youngsters and have more litters etc - but that is not me - I bought all my oldies into this world and they will remain here until they're ready to leave it.....

I think this shows a compassionate and caring breeder as opposed to one who is money conscious

> One question I have had over the years on this forum but never expressed, as I knew I would get my head chopped off, is:  If you only breed a female "once", what do you do with all the females you ultimately accrue?

Most I know would have up to 2 or maby 3 litters, but as above our kc allow 4. Most I know simply keep their retired girls and space their litters out, if that means they have to wait longer to have another litter so be it they don't mind km. I know of a couple who put retired girls in pet homes but thats not something I could ever do, my dogs are my pets first.
I'm in the position now where I can't have any more dogs, my girl is now spayed and hopefully I will not be in a position to keep another dog for a long time, however I have gone in part ownership on one and am planning to do so again later on. Ok I don't get the benefit of having the dogs with me but I have the option to have something back later on.

These replies have made good reading for me. To the questions addressed back to me:

My girl comes from a breeder who has been breeding for 10 years. I have her pedigree back 5 generations. Both parents had combi-breed dna tests coming back clear for the tests for our breed. Parents also hip/elbow scored with scores below average. Dam had valid eye certificate.

My girl is getting her eye exam on Friday. I’ve decided to do the combi-breed test even though she is clear by inheritance. I just felt it was the right thing to do as she is hopefully my foundation dog. Hips and elbows are booked for the end of the month subject to my vet opening up for non-essential treatments/procedures.

I have remained in touch with the breeder, sending updates and pictures. I am meeting him this week to talk about breeding and hopefully he will agree to act as a mentor assuming ithe hips/elbows and eyes are all in order.

Right now she is a pet. We had planned to start in working trials this summer but obviously that all stopped. While we’ve done a fair bit of at home training on heel work and building our relationship I had not wanted to try the agility part until she was 1 and until she had her hips/elbows done so again all on hold.

All replies have given me things to think about, so thanks!

If she's only just approaching one, it's too early to be thinking about breeding her - you don't know what she will grow up to be. Get her health tests done, by all means, but just for your information and because it's a good thing to do, nothing to do with breeding. (I health test all my dogs even if I don't plan on breeding from them. I want to know what I have.)

Pursue working trials training over the next couple of years and see if you can put some qualifications on her. Then return to the thoughts about breeding...

She’s 18 months now. She was 1 in early February so we were all set for health checks back then but lockdown got in the way. Based on her seasons she would be mated at 26 months

You usually start at lower levels with working trials, this is something I started out doing some years ago now before switching over to gundog training.  So article retrieves, heelwork, more heelwork, send aways etc, apologies if I'm telling you things you already know; and then they go over poles on the ground well before they are old enough to then start going over smaller jumps with a build up to the scale, which I really don't like, and is one reason I don't think I'd try it again, it's not so much the scale up the front but the landing over it on their front end that I didn't like. 

Anyway, I digress, but there is no need to do the DNA tests if she is CBP from both parents for anything nasty.  I personally would do them every other generation just to rule out human error, but that's entirely up to you, if you feel you want to test her that's a step further than many would go.  One of my pups has had her hips, elbows and eyes done, but the owners, who plan to breed, know she is CBP for the 5 main conditions affecting the breed, so don't need to test for those and won't be.  They will, however, test her progeny. 

It's good that you're in touch with the breeder, and that they are likely going to help you, as they will often times have ideas about good lines to look for to carry on, that will compliment their breeding further down the line as it were.  Good luck with the health tests, let's hope they come back good for you.

I just want to say that I think the question "What makes a good breeder?" is the most fundamental and important question ever asked on this forum.

I have only recently posted on these boards but have followed them for several years and learned such a lot.  And I just wanted to say to Nimue that I have always thought that you sound like a really wonderful breeder and have always stood out to me as someone that a puppy buyer would be very lucky to find.  I hope you enjoy your retirement. I am sure that the joy you have obviously brought to so many families is a priceless life's work and am very glad that there are breeders out there with your breeding goals.

Dear Valley,  What a wonderful thing to say.  Thank you so much.