Dear all

Brand new on here so be gentle!

I had planned a litter this year from my working lab bitch who picks up and trials. Full testing etc, a credit to the breed if I do say so myself!

Due to a few issues the intended breeding couldn’t  take place.

One of the things that’s been bugging me is these over inflated prices of puppies, I paid £850 for my first boy, £900 for my girl and £950 for my 11 month old puppy.
All health checked, top working pedigrees, litter mates are field trial winners, half sisters and brothers are champions etc

So my questions are these:

1: how is it that people are getting away with selling untested dogs from unknown lines with no good background in either showing or working, and then selling them for £3k plus?!

2: hypothetically if I had a litter I wouldn’t want to scalp anyone, what would be an accurate price?

3: I believe in a fair price for a fair product, assuming I vet the applicants well, but I may miss one, how do I stop people selling them on and ripping others off? Is there a mechanism that can stop the transfer of puppies? Ie a contact that holds up in court etc

The long and the short of it if people will buy then the unscrupulous ones of which there appears to be many come out of the woodwork and charge what they can
Same with health testing many don't know it should be done or don't see it as important.

I think everyone on here agrees it awful but as for how to stop it ? Good question.
Selling on is also a worry .good breeders will request as u probably know that any dog that can't be kept to be returned breeder. However a breeder has no control over that .
As to can any of this be taken to court and have a good outcome for breeder and dog I will leave others to comment I suspect not

When you get the answer to 1 , let us all know

Q 2..I would guess that if you paid £950 11 months ago that you would charge that or a bit more this year??

Q 3.. I think most say contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on & aren't legally binding but you have to have something

As usual lexy so much more succinct than my rambles but yep sadly I agree :)

> I think everyone on here agrees it awful but as for how to stop it ? Good question

As I see it, if the market will stand these crazy prices, there's not much to be done other than spread the word that now is NOT the time to be buying a puppy, or in some cases, an older dog.   I've seen 2 - 3 year olds on THAT website for crazy prices.  And I can only hope those poor bitches on offer, won't be snapped up and bred from too.  

There will always be people ready to be conned into parting with their money if they want a puppy badly enough and have the money to spend.  To me it's a bit like the panic buying that went on when this virus first hit.

I hope Inland Revenue are keeping a close eye on all the profiteering that's going on, come the time for the tax returns to be made.

Meanwhile I'm afraid we are governed by supply and demand.

These are exactly the questions I posed recently here...

I think the priority always has to be finding the best homes. What the cost is, should be not the main consideration. My best homes have always been homes which forgot to ask what the price was until we were much further along in the process. Having said that, there may be good homes who've heard about the crap going on at the moment and who want to be sure they can afford a pup from you, so the question might occur sooner these days! 

I would be afraid of putting off the best homes by charging what I hear of others charging, £3K plus. The best homes are not always or often the homes with the most money!

I think I've posted elsewhere on here, but I have someone who bought a pup from me in 2016 with endorsements on, breed her during lockdown (pups will not be KC registered as a result) without full health testing, and she is going to sell the pups for £900 each. Not fully health tested, not KC registered. And £900 is what I charged for my fully health tested, KC registered, optimally raised and planned litter last year!

I think I'd probably consider that prices are going to come down soon but not down to what they used to be. So I think something like £1200 might be a reasonable cost now. That would communicate 'quality without ripping you off'...

You can't really stop people selling them on. Put endorsements on the pups, so that if they are sold on, they at least can't be bred from. Beyond that, it's about getting to know your puppy buyers. How excited are they about having a puppy? Are they imagining their lives with one in it? Are they buying stuff for the pup? Are they honest? Get their address and Google Map their address to see where they live and what their house is like. Perhaps ask for a recommendation from their current vet or trainer if they already have dogs. None of this can absolutely stop you getting conned (it's happened to me) or lied to, but it does really reduce the risk...

'I hope Inland Revenue are keeping a close eye on all the profiteering that's going on, come the time for the tax returns to be made.'

Which taxes go to paying for our NHS 'heroes ' and other services.  I'm sure the greedy people charging these prices have availed themselves of these without a thought as to how they are financed.

I would have no problem reporting such people.

Not a clue how some breeders are getting away with charging ridiculous prices, some are saying they are charging high prices to stop pups being sold on, but if they don't trust the potential puppy owners why are they letting them have a pup in the first place?

I sold my pups last year for £850, Iv'e been told since I'm too cheap, mine are dual purpose not working, and I think the next time I have a litter I'm probably going to put the price up and look at what others are charging.  My bitch is fully health tested, hips, elbows, BVA eye cert and DNA tests, and her daughter will have the same; any potential future litters are pending how she develops and her health tests.

I have a contract of sale which has been checked by my solicitor and I have been told it would stand up in court, the key is explaining it before hand, proving you have emailed or sent it out to them, and making sure everybody signs everything.

The answer to the question on how can anyone sell puppies of sometimes dubious quality for high prices is very simple, supply and demand, the UK has gone mad for pets, it's not just dogs but cats, and small furries too.  How much to charge for a carefully bred quality puppy is whatever you feel comfortable with, maybe turn the question around and consider that perhaps pets have been undervalued, when you think that the pet food/toy/vet industry is multi billion then the initial purchase price could seem quite cheap, I am wondering if there will be a hike in insurance premiums to reflect the increase in value too.

As for selling puppies on, there is Lucy's Law which prohibits the sale of puppies under 6 months by a third party (not the breeder) , it would be interesting to know how this would be implemented and if indeed it would in a private sale, I really wish vets involved themselves in reading microchips when they get a new animal registering, it would be very helpful with tracing the path of our pets although not if people don't update the details which happens all too often.

Hi. Also new (long-time lurker) but feel the need to contribute as I'm in the same position as OP but perhaps a bit further down the line as my bitch went to stud last weekend, so fingers crossed may have puppies mid September. Made the decision to breed from my lab (pre pandemic) on the basis of her pedigree, conformation, temperament, trainability and health tests- have had several others over the past few decades, that although lovely 'people' couldn't tick all these boxes sufficiently (hips needed to be <4/4- personal bar). My (biased) opinion is that the only thing I could improve about her is if she pooed golden bars (hence user name). Have some friend/family homes lined up, but as for the rest...minefield.

My plan is to advertise on here well before litter actually born and be ridiculously nosey about potential new homes- as previously mentioned- googling addresses and I'm afraid I'll be asking for proof of address/identity/DBS's/professional body memberships/community standing etc etc. The way I see it is that if I were looking for a puppy at the moment and found one that ticked all my boxes I would be happy to provide this information and a good deal about my doggy background and the home I could offer. I'm also keen to keep in touch with the puppies in their new homes so will get the kids on to creating a social media account for this purpose and utilise their stalking skills.

I also plan to make it clear that puppies will have KC endorsements for breeding/export that although no guarantee of preventing BYB (as above) would hopefully act as another deterrent. Ditto sale contract.

Price wise-difficult given factors previously mentioned, but I can't personally justify more than 20% more than 2019 average prices for the breed, so £1100-1200 which is expensive, but not extortionate and around what I'd be willing to pay for the right working bred lab if I were I buyer. There are bound to be many more litters coming up now lockdown has eased and I can see prices easing back. Even if they don't I would still prefer excellent homes and not being extortionate is going to hopefully open a wider pool of these that are willing to jump through my hoops.

1) - People often have more money than sense - my advice would be not to buy from a litter with an over inflated price

2) - If you paid £900 a year ago and your litter was of a similar standard i.e. good health test results/reared lovingly in a home environment with lots of handling etc - in view of inflation of dog food prices etc - £950 - £1000 wouldn't be unreasonable

3) -  Let people know your plans for a litter, speak or message regularly and you do get a 'feel' for people.  I am quite fussy about potential new owners, it may seem unfair but I believe young families are a good bet especially if parents have had dogs before.  There are always people wanting to add a brother/sister to their dog as well as sadly people having lost their faithful friend.  The stud dog owner may also put people on to you.

Good luck

> My plan is to advertise on here well before litter actually born

Was a time when this was considered to be a no-no and that apart, I never pre-advertised my litters because there was no need (I usually had names in a book even if quite often, in the meantime, they'd gone elsewhere which was ok by me as clearly those people didn't want one of my puppies specifically).  I always had the feeling to pre-advertise was perhaps tempting fate.   I wanted to see what I had, once whelped, and what was going to be available.   And as for an annual increase, when I was breeding, puppy (and stud fee) prices remained pretty stable, year on year.

Each to their own however.  I just hope that people look more at the prospective homes, than income although I guess that depends on the reason for breeding.   We only took a litter for our next generation.

there is Lucy's Law which prohibits the sale of puppies under 6 months by a third party (not the breeder)

It only applies to commerical licensed sellers(eg pet shops etc) not "private"sales

"Lucy’s Law effectively removes the third-party dealer chain, resulting in all dog and cat breeders becoming accountable for the first time."


From Government website

I can totally see the reasoning behind potentially selling pups at £1000+, I suppose from my point of view I’d want star quality lines and at least one parent (if not both winners) being champions. I only have a litter occasionally, last litter was 3 years ago and have put off this years litter due to covid and stupid prices, plus the endless enquiries we’ve had, so if we have our next one it’ll be over 4 years. But I can’t imagine selling mine for more than £900 - maybe £950 at a push (looking at a champion as the next potential sire) but for labs which are a common breed I think that’s quite dear...but maybe that’s just me? Also I’d like to add I charge the same price for all colours, fox reds aren’t any more than blacks - not that I’m suggesting anyone’s said they will do this, I’ve just seen a lot of ads on ‘that’ website and fb charging more for certain colours.

The wording of the law is "makes unlawful the sale of puppies and kittens (under six months in both cases) by third party sellers/anyone other than the breeder", the Petplan website advises that "if you are planning to introduce a new puppy or kitten under six months to your family legally you will only be able to buy the animal direct from a breeder or a genuine rescue"

Rather than take the Petplan version as gospel. Read the official Government version.

Today (Monday 6 April) the Government has introduced landmark new legislation to tackle the low-welfare, high volume supply of puppies and kittens, by banning their commercial third-party sale in England.

It's commercial third party sales that are banned.  So people are still free to sell their own personal puppy if they decide they no longer what it, but they can not get the puppy with the sole aim to resell it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/lucys-law-spells-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-puppy-farming

Also when they did the consultation for it all the stuff said commercial selling.  If if seems most news and reports have missed that part out when reporting it like the title of the gov page does, but it then is a on to say commercial.

Here's the actual amendment, it's to the licence for selling animals  as pets, licence holders may no longer sell puppies or kittens they did not breed themselves under the age of 6 months.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2019/9780111186954#:~:text=The%20Animal%20Welfare%20%28Licensing%20of%20Activities%20Involving%20Animals%29,interests%20concerned%20as%20the%20Secretary%20of%20State%20

Amendment to the 2018 Regulations
2.—(1) Schedule 3 to the 2018 Regulations (specific conditions: selling animals as pets) is amended as follows.

(2) In the heading to paragraph 5, omit “Purchase and”;

(3) In paragraph 5—

(a)in sub-paragraph (1)—
(i)for the words before paragraph (a) substitute—
“No animal of any of the following descriptions may be sold as a pet, or sold with a view to being resold as a pet, by or on behalf of the licence holder—”;

(ii)after paragraph (d) insert—
“(e)puppies or kittens which were not bred by the licence holder.”.
(b)after sub-paragraph (2), insert—
“(3) In this paragraph, “kitten” means a cat aged less than 6 months.”.

I was looking at local litters near me and saw a litter of non KC registered Bedlingtons. The breeder was actually putting the advert online as soon as the bitch had stopped whelping as he/she wrote that it would be updated if there were any extra puppies.

Less than a day later they are all reserved. I know there is a sizeable number of working Bedlingtons in the rural areas not far from me, but the speed at which they've been reserved is amazing. A deposit secures one, so neither party has vetted each other. Its no wonder people are duped out of money so easily, the buyers don't even know for certain the pups exist.

There is also an advert for KC registered Bedlingtons which and the pups cost over £1000 more, with no mention of health testing. The ad is six hours old and some pups are already reserved.

I agree the prices are overinflated.  People say they are genuine breeders and not into “it” for money but clearly lots are .
We lost our Labrador the start of the year and felt ready to have another dog join our family but have found so many breeders are over charging . . It’s heart breaking we would love to give a dog a home...but can’t justify  £2500 plus for the privilege unfortunately.. especially if going back only 6 months ago I could of happily paid between £700-£1000 or slightly more.

I agree the prices are overinflated.  People say they are genuine breeders and not into “it” for money but clearly lots are .
We lost our Labrador the start of the year and felt ready to have another dog join our family but have found so many breeders are over charging . . It’s heart breaking we would love to give a dog a home...but can’t justify  £2500 plus for the privilege unfortunately.. especially if going back only 6 months ago I could of happily paid between £700-£1000 or slightly more.
Due to the pandemic we will sit tight and wait til next year and see what happens, hopefully all the craziness eases and we can find genuine breeders that want caring and loving homes for their pups .
We are happy to wait for the right pup and time.