I bought a golden retriever puppy earlier this year which, at her first vet visit the day after I bought her, my vet said she had mild entropian. I advised the breeder who offered to take her back, no chance!, and then offered to pay the excess if she eventually needed an operation. I have since discovered that one of her litter mates has liver shunt and the breeder has not been helpful or supportive to her owner as she was to me. Willow will need an operation when she is a little bigger and will need to be on a special diet for life. Sad for any owner, but Willow's is a first time dog owner so is finding this quite hard to deal with given the lack of support from the breeder. I understand that this condition is generally congenital rather than genetic. Both parents had had the usual health tests and this was a first and only litter for the breeder. My question is how much responsibility does a breeder have for congenital conditions discovered in a puppy shortly after collection? I have never bred from my goldies but in these circumstances, I would offer to pay for the operation or refund some of the purchase price as well as giving support. These pups were £1400 so not cheap. I would be interested to know people's thoughts.

Always a rather difficult one because buying puppies is not like buying a bag of flour.   Any breeder can only do their very best when breeding, researching pedigrees carefully before doing the mating, and using tested stock.  But there are still no guarantees that each litter will be as espected, especially when two lines have never been put together before. 

Any prospective owner too can only do their research re finding a reputable breeder but again, things go wrong because we are talking about living beings.   Most breeders would offer to take the 'faulty' puppy back, either replacing it straight away, or offering a puppy from a later litter.   But, as was the case with our boy, by the time problems show up, usually (it's always good for a new owner to take a new puppy/adult to their own vet within the first 48 hours for a check) they have bonded with the puppy and won't think about taking it back.

Things like liver shunt are sad and if this shows up, then it's up to breeder and owner to decide what's going to be best for all concerned.   Sadly puppies with this don't always survive and not all owners want to be facing that heartbreak, any more than having to have the pup on a special diet for life.

A good breeder would always offer support, emotional or financial, to an owner of a defective puppy, if not morally, but to protect their reputation with their peers!

When we had problems with our boy, after having the first set of x-rays, I told his breeder what was going on, and invited her to 'contribute' towards the veterinary costs.  She sent a minimal sum.  I wasn't taking him back - it's a good job he was such a nice 'person' because I spent a lot of his life with his vet, on and off and I daren't add up what I paid my vet over the years.   Given her reaction to the other puppy's problem,  I'd suggest that this breeder may have heard from other new owners and pulled back re support  ..... she should have seen 'mild entropian' - did your puppy come with  health certificate because so should her own vet and you should have been made aware of this.   Liver shunt - not obvious immediately.

I was always there to give a life-time of support for puppies we bred and sold, at the very least.  Thankfully we were never faced with situations like this.

Liver shunts are not genetic although some breeds are more susceptible.

You cannot really hold a breeder responsible for breeding a puppy with a congenital portosystemic shunt & although the breeder should be informed, monetary recompense for something that is out of their control isn't something I would expect.

Entropion is genetic & like all dogs with any known eye conditions breeding dogs should have both clinical & DNA( if availableble)testing done prior to breeding. Entropion should be checked for in puppies before sale. Are the parents of your puppy KC registered & fully health tested ?

BTW if I was a breeder(which I am not)I would expect to give a lifetime support & offer the puppy insurance that is now available so that conditions that occur or become apparant in the first few weeks with the new owners. I have tended to insure puppies I have bought for the first year of life & fortunately have never needed to claim, any pedigree dogs I have owned have always been from fully health tested.parents

Looks like the breeder has offered to pay the excess on insurance for the entropian if ive read this correctly
Why the liver shunt puppy is being dealt with differently only those properly involved would know . Is it a difference in what the  reader is offering and what the owner feels she needs ?
I  would expect at least emotional support and insurance given for the first 8 weeks ( think its 8 ) or being able to return the puppy which I doubt I could either
I know not the point of the post exactly but a warning to those who think  breeding is just a matter of getting a dog pregnant and selling the litter . its not that easy things can go wrong and support should be for life

Thanks for the replies. In the case of my puppy, she was checked by the breeder's vet a day or two before I picked her up and she went to my vet the next day, when he picked up the problem with her eyes. With the case of the second puppy, the owner was having trouble with feeding right from the start and being a novice dog owner, just thought she had a fussy puppy. The dam and sire were both tested for hips, eyes and elbows. The breeder was a lovely lady but I am puzzled why she didn't notice the feeding problems with the liver shunt puppy or her vet not picking up my Susie's eye problem which my vet did straight away.
All puppies came with 5 weeks insurance with the Kennel Club. In my case, I took Susie to the vet again when the weeping from her eyes was getting worse. she developed sores on her tummy and occasionally yelped and held her leg up. Both the latter turned out to be nothing but it meant that I could not insure her with any company other than the KC without legs, eyes and skin being excluded. As the KC was far too expensive, Susie is now uninsured.
I think her eyes are improving as she grows but if she needs an operation I will ask the breeder to make a contribution as her vet missed the problem and had I known, I would have asked for a reduction in the price at the time as I was not getting a 100% healthy puppy.
I think this is a moral issue regarding the liver shunt puppy. As I said, if I was the breeder I would make a financial contribution to the operation she needs and of course the puppy will need a lifetime of a special diet and possibly a shortened life.

When I breed I have all puppies vet checked when given first jab for any problems even though there is no major issues in the breed in this country.

When they are sold the date of the check and the name of our vets are on the contract, but we also say and heavily recommended they get their own vet to check the puppy asap, we also say and is stated in the contract they have seven days to do this, if any thing is found to be wrong with puppy we will take back the puppy and give back a full refund.

If there was anything missed by my vets i want it back with me so I can insure the correct care is given

If the puppy has successful surgery she would not need a lifelong special diet.

As for the KC insurance being expensive, you do get what you pay for with pet insurance & after paying £1,400 for a puppy. i would certainly insure the dog for at least a year, the KC insurance does have a monthly payment option.
If there was nothing wrong with her skin or leg I cannot see how they would be excluded in future policies from other companies.

It's very normal for a liver shunt not to be picked up until a pup is a little older and has left the litter.  It just doesn't manifest until then in a way that presents noticeable symptoms.  It is not genetic.  Shit happens, frankly, and where do you stop?  Should breeders pay for the 5 year old that develops cancer?  What about the 3 year old working spaniel who wasn't docked and whose tail splits open and needs surgery - should the breeder pay for that because they should have docked to prevent injury??  Sorry, it's bonkers.  Breeders can only test for the conditions that are known to exist in a breed and if they've done that, they can't be held liable for things which develop unexpectedly in the future.

A pup with entropian should be picked up before 8 weeks so your breeder's vet should have noticed that at the vet check and the breeder is right to offer to contribute towards that cost. It's a bit different to a liver shunt...

All the puppy contracts I've seen say that the new owner should take the puppy to their own vet within x number of days of purchase and that if that vet finds a problem that wasn't previously known about, the owner is entitled to a full refund when they return the puppy within another x number of days, with the vet's report of the problem. If you refused to return the pup then anything the breeder offers is a bonus to you. How is your contract worded?

My contract of sale says that pups need to be seen by their own vet within a week.  However, I have also had a vet say they wouldn't put down a hereditary defect just because they knew I wanted to breed, then muck up plates for elbows, and then neglected my dog to the point I self referred.  So you need to be on the ball, not just breeders, but some vets will sweep things under the carpet.

KC insurance is very expensive at £50 per month and not the cover I would normally take out. My dogs have insurance of £7000 vets fees pa which will cover the majority of claims and I can top up others. Just because I can afford a £1400 puppy doesn't mean I can afford £600 a year to insure her and I suspect there are millions of dog owners in my position. All my retrievers have been very healthy and were very long lived so never needed to use their insurance. Should Susie need vet treatment I have access to funds but £600 pa for something that may never happen is a lot of money. As for alternative insurance, I made enquiries and was told that the policies would not cover eyes, legs or skin and would be more expensive than normal. As a former insurance broker I know my way around insurance. I feel it fair that the breeder agreed to make a contribution to the cost of Susie's possible operation as her vet missed it and my vet found it just a couple of days later when Susie was just 8 weeks and 1 day old. As for the puppy with the liver shunt, I understand that this couldn't have been foreseen but if I had sold a puppy with a fairly serious health issue I would feel a moral obligation to offer support and also some financial assistance as it is going to be a very stressful and emotional experience especially as this is her first dog. I don't  know as yet whether it is internal or external but if the former then the long term prospect is not always as good as an external shunt. It is of course possible that the puppy's owner made unreasonable demands so the breeder won't offer any support. I don't yet know. It makes me feel very grateful that I have been blessed over the years with four healthy retrievers.

Congrats and take care.

My oh My Ann.  Another site thread you have views on,,,why am I surprised?  Did you say congenital issues with a Puppy are acceptable and a Breeder shouldn't be held responsible?  Oh and how many Puppies have you bought,,,insuring them just incase there is a problem? covering your back for chosing the wrong Breeder possibly?  All my Puppes come with 5 weeks free insurance anyway so why are you considering buying from a Breeder who doesn't provide this?  Who's digging a current day hole now?

How dare you trash professionals such as vets. My contract of sale also states the new addition should be seen within 5 days  - not a week.  That's what new owners sign their contract for, they agree to comply. I don't know for sure, but I think you have had a bad experience in the past and now take it out on every Breeder you can! My patience on your nasty perceptions since joining the Champ Dog Members Forum are now paying off. Hope the Champdogs Admin people are ready for the big insight into you all.  You all seem to be breeding lots & lots more litters than your blogs admit to!

Well Jeangenie.  My contract of sale is worded exactly as the Kennel Club dictates and as I've commented before, not one Puppy has been returned - ever! (from the last 3 years of understanding about testing or previously)

Hoggie, do you realise that every post you make only serves to illustrate that you have only three years experience of trying to breed dogs to a professional standard? A wise breeder knows that learning is lifelong, and it is better to speak less and listen more if you want to gain respect in your chosen breed. You wish to breed out all genetic faults? Then start with the best, and beware, Mother Nature will always be waiting to bite you in the bum.

Also, blimming heck, if I had enough dogs they were living in kennels outside my house and I'd claimed that every single dog got individual attention from me daily and I bred 1/2/3 litters a year and also had retired dogs next door which I see X times a week....

...then I most definitely wouldn't have hours and hours to spend baiting people on an internet forum.

Poor dogs.

>A wise breeder knows that learning is lifelong, and it is better to speak less and listen more if you want to gain respect in your chosen breed

Absolutely right. The longer a person spends learning about their hobby ( or 'trade' in certain cases) the more they realise they have yet to learn.  Why do beginners always think they're experts after only a few short years? It's good advice to keep your mouth shut and your ears open!

This is why we have two ears and only one mouth.

Hi I am asking as I have had my puppy 2 weeks and sadly he had water on the brain and was too weak for the specialist to operate on it came on all of a sudden he started walking into everything and loosing all balance to his right side ive contacted to breeder to be fobbed off and told basically it was my fault cose we brought the runt of the litter he was a little smaller than the other pups with a lazy eye and slight bulbs head which she assured us there was nothing to worry about and he was doing great progress I contacted her yesterday to asked for all his paperwork she got very funny with me and said the paperwork wasent relevant and also removed me from the group chat for all the other pups family's before I had a chance to let them all know and say goodbye any help on this matter would be grat ive got a devastated family and heafty vets bill aswell now can we claim our money back from the breeder

Sorry, as a breeder even if there had been no sign of such a serious issue at point of sale, after such a short time a FULL REFUND is appropriate, and what I would do, with my condolences..

In effect they have sold faulty goods.

If this was a Private sale and not a business transaction the Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware) does apply.

Did you accept the faults in writing?

Did you have pup examined within a few days of purchase, and did they have pup vet checked, especially as it was showing concerning issues?

Morally they should refund, and show concern for your loss.

Most puppy Insurance won't cover.an illness/condition within 2 weeks of purchade as it's pre existing.

I agree, simply as a courtesy I would give a full refund if a puppy passed away that quickly.

I'd suggest you contact both the Citizens Advice Bureau and Trevor Cooper at DogLaw.

Puppy insurance if it's activated by the breeder and sold with the puppy, should be in place as soon as they collect their puppy - that's what it's for. If it's insurance proper which the new owner has taken out, then it won't cover the first 14 days sadly.

I would also get in touch with trading standards.  You were told the puppy was fine, small but fine and trading standards might be able to help. 
Ethically the breeder should refund you but this is not an ethical breeder or they would not have sold you a puppy with a swollen head, puppies should not be rehomed unless fully healthy.  I suspect you will have a battle on your hands to get any of your money back . maybe you will have to go to small claims court .

I am very sorry you have had such a horrible experience and its not right.

also take screenshots of all messages back and forth between you and the breeder that have happened- you may need them as evidence.

Dear Blagdon I am so sorry that you are going through this terrible experience.

We had a similar experience in a litter of Golden Retrievers I bred many years ago. There were four in the litter -three girls and one boy. All did well and went to their new homes at 8 weeks having had a thorough check by my vet and and eye checked for MRD. Two weeks later I was devastated to be phoned by the family to be told that 'Buddy' was in vet hospital with ? hydrocephalus. They were a lovely family but I expressed my doubts that this could be the case. He had left us a ( seemingly) perfectly healthy puppy. The family were unwilling to have the puppy back after treatment -I cannot remember all the details but I drove over a 100 miles to collect him and I believe I paid the medical bills. Buddy settled back with us and seemed to be doing well.So well that we felt confident that we had a perfectly healthy puppy who had perhaps had a mishap while in his first home and perhaps the family had changed their mind about him. I had him checked over by my vet and all seemed well.

He was rehomed to another local family and for the first week I had regular updates on how well he was doing. I was in Newcastle with my youngest son at university interview when I got the call from the second family to say that Buddy was very unwell and seemed to be going blind. I arranged for him to be bought back to us as soon as possible, which he was. Poor Buddy was definitely blind and was making distressing sounds indicative of cerebral damage. He was put to sleep shortly afterwards. Both families were fully refunded but I felt so bad that they had suffered such a traumatic experience.

It would seem that your breeder should have recognised the signs of this puppy's condition-the bulbous head and eye problem were clear indications of hydrocephalus. The very least she could do is give you a full refund and help towards his medical expenses. I hope you get some resolution to this.