Hello, yesterday, was my bitch 9th or 10th day in her heat cycle.
She mated with another dog both excellent pedigree.
24hrs later, they mated again, both times they tied about 15minutes.
3 hours after the 2nd mating, a stray managed to break in and he mounted her, i ran to them, they were tied, i acted fast, hosed him with water and pushed him, they got unstuck. The whole thing took less than a minute, maybe 30seconds, but they did tie.
What should i expect now?
A litter from each male? what are the chances that the stray didn’t get her pregnant at all? and if so, could it affect only 1 or 2 pups or it could affect a larger number?
i asked around, i was told to let her rest for 48hrs, than let her mate with the akita at least once or twice.
Any advice?
Thanks a lot, I’m so worried

Personally I would take her to the vet for the Alizin injection.  I used it on one of my bitches after a mismate, and would recommend it. 

Then, next season you can have her mated to a dog whose owner has secure accommodation.

thank you jean, that is something im thinking about.
Is there a chance that the stray wont get her pregnant?
Are the odds on my favor?
thinking that she is already filled with the dogs sperm, and the stray didn't even last 20sec after penetration.
I asked a local vet, he told me that there is a 95% chance that he wont get her pregnant, but i would to hear your opinion.
Thanks a lot and sorry for over asking ;)

Sorry to disagree with your vet.

I call it Murphy's law - I bet she carries pups from the stray.  (same as sod's law!)

I think it's more like 50% chance.  I would go for the jab.

I've owned over 30 dogs in my lifetime.  I've bred many litters and studied canine behaviour for over 50 years now.

thx a  lot for ur help!

As crossbred puppies can resemble either parent, (or even neither), would you not be obliged to dna test all the puppies to be able to guarantee that the Akita puppies were pure bred? I would be dubious about parting with a typical pedigree puppy price if I knew that the bitch had had a dual mating. In view of the cost of having to dna test every puppy, I would have the injection done, and plan for the perfect mating next time. Maybe the Covid situation will be more relaxed by then too, which will be another worry out of the way.

thank you for ur answer

I'd also disagree with your vet. Considering the maiting was the same day there is just as much chance the maiting with the stray will be successful as there is the maiting with the akita.  a Short maiting can easerly result is a litter just as a slip maiting can as it's during the vigorous thrusting that the most sperm rich fluid is released. As to how many of the pups could be the strays it could be your lucky and non are or you could be unlucky and they all are. If you go ahead with this litter you will need to DNA test the puppies against both akitas to see which are from the stud and which are from the stray.

The only way to determine which of these coming puppies was sired by which dog, should you allow the pregnancy to go ahead, is to DNA test each puppy.  Of course it's possible for the second male to be involved in her coming litter. Which is why bitches should be kept secure for the entire length of their season, whether mated or not.

Personally I'd stop this pregnancy and wait until her next season, making sure she cannot be got at by more than the intended sire.

ps   You should never force a separation from two dogs in a tie.  You were lucky neither, or both, was injured by what you did.

I would use the Alizin injection as well, it's hard enough using the health testing schemes and trying to ensure you produce happy, healthy puppies without something random like this happening.  It may muck up her seasons for a while, but at least you'll know next time round it's the boy you want to use and only him with her.  And maybe make sure the area is more secure as well.

As the eggs she releases won't be ripe for fertilisation for a day or two after being released, and she was mated early on in her season (day 12 or 13 is more average) then she's got a complete mix of sperm inside her waiting to fertilise the eggs. The litter could be sired by either of them equally. As laboratories might not be up and running to do DNA tests for some time, your best bet is to write off this litter by having the bitch injected with Alizin to prevent implantation of any embryos and try again next season - keeping the bitch in a more secure place!

thank you all for your replies.
does it help if she mates with the dog again? does it reduce the chances that the stray will fertilize the eggs?

NO!!

Its not about reducing the odds. As lexy says in a nutshell no !

  DNA would still be needed nd health risks will be unknown in any mixed breed pups.

I've known of a few situations like this.  Some of them were deliberate dual-sired litters, where the breeder wanted to get more genetic diversity for a breed whilst only putting a bitch through one pregnancy.  One of them was even a deliberate surgical AI with a dual sired litter.  Of course, both were pedigree studs...

Any dual-sired litter needs to have all the resulting puppies DNA tested, which is quite costly but not impossible.  Of course, those breeders who do deliberate dual sired litters are intentionally signing up for this and so it's not impossible. 

As for how many pups from which sire, really - anything goes, is the answer.  No one can tell because there are just too many factors to consider.  Like the quality of the two studs' sperm, their mobility and motility and what was going on for the bitch in terms of her cycle at the precise moment of the various breedings.  So - you might get most pups from the stray dog and just one or two from the pedigree, or vice versa. 

On the basis that it can't hurt and might help, I would definitely see if you can get another breeding with the pedigree dog and desired stud - if she hasn't gone over.  We know that sperm do act competitively inside the bitch, and the more of his guys you can get in there, possibly the better.  It's also said that the most fertile period is just before she goes over, so it could be good from that perspective as well.

If she were my dog, I would have the litter and DNA test the puppies and chalk it up to an adventure and an experience.  I wouldn't want the risk of the Alizin messing with future cycles and the next attempt at breeding in terms of when she next comes in etc, and I'm a big fan of doing things as naturally as possible, where there is a choice - so I'd probably take my chances to get most pups from the desired stud. 

Do let us know what happens if you have the litter as it sounds like an interesting one...

I suppose it depends on which dog has the strongest sperm he'll will be father to any pups.
9 times out of 10 it will be the one you didn't want.
You can try again with first sire but chances are any pups won't be purebred.

I agree with 1,2,3,4 but with one question. What size/type of dog was the stray? If there's the slightest chance that he was much bigger and heaver or with a large head, if there was any chance that his pups wouldn't be able to be born naturally I would use Alizin now.

In my breed dual matings are relatively common, to increase/preserve genetic diversity but all silkens are parental dna tested anyway so it doesn't increase the expense for us. You would obviously have to dna test the entire litter.

May be silly question but would both sires have to be tested ? may be difficult if the one is a stray?

I don't think so.  If they have the pedigree sire tested, then any pups with genetic material from anything else other than that sire and the bitch, would be assumed to be the stray.

Hi
What a nightmare. I too would opt for the alizin jab. The last thing anyone wants is to produce a cross/mix breed when you are aiming for pedigree pups especially if you have a waiting list plus finding the right homes for a crossbreed too.
You have no idea in what ratio you will end up with either.

Mate her on her next season and do all you can to prevent any stray/neighbouring dogs into your property and don't leave her unattended either.

In these uncertain times of cv19 i wouldn't want to be breeding right now either, so waiting is not a bad thing.

Good luck

Thanks a lot for the answer.
As i have been told, Alizin can be bad for her health, i don't want that, even tho the best thing to do is to abort and start over in 6months,but the last thing im thinking of now is making money.
I talked to the potential buyers (  they dont require pedigree papers as they already saw both akita parents ) and told them what happened, that we have to wait 2 months to find out. I don't want to be scamming anyone either.
You think they can be distinguished from how they look? one father is an akita, the other a german shepherd , or it will be hard to know the mixed ones and a test is required?
The stray is a german shepherd, like 45kgs. My akita is like 35kgs, you think there might be delivery problems?

I have another akita in my mind ( was my 1st choice ), also excellent pedigree, I am taking my girl to him tomorrow, which will be day 13 of her period and see if she still accepts to mate.
Don't you think that's a better idea than mating with the same akita she did before? in case his sperm wasn't that potent or something.
The only reason i switched to the other akita is because my bitch and him were first timers, it seemed they wont make it.
But i think now my girl is experienced, it will happen.
As for mixed puppies, i have a big land and livestock, i wouldn't mind a couple more dogs, i only hope it wont be that many, and if so, ill make sure i find them good homes like the pure akita ones.

Again, thanks a lot for your help!

ps: the stray broke into my home through a window, my girl was just next room, it was a race between me and the stray who grabbed her and instantly got tied with her... Yes, i know i shouldn't have untied them but, i didn't use force, i ran got a bottle of water, sprayed him, than gave him a little push and they untied. Maybe it wasn't enough time for a 'Perfect tie', i don't know ... but as i have read the ejaculation has already happened if they started the tie

So you are now going to put another dog, into the possible sire of this litter...!!!
IF you are not going to use Alizin (in your words...as it bad for her health!!), I certainly would not be using yet another dog!!

Isn't there still going to be an issue regarding health status of any pups sired by the gsd given u dont have any idea of his health
Gsd have a number of problems associated with the breed which u would normally test for

Are you for real ?  Are you really in Lebanon ??Possibly having 3 sires ????

You think they can be distinguished from how they look?

My 1st dog was an 8 week old puppy from a rescue, the dog was a black lab and a cocker spaniel bitch, 5 in the litter and I saw them all.
2 were very labrador, short black coat, smooth tail but shorter legs for body length; 1 was dark brown, longer coat and ears were spaniel but smaller, the other two were gold colour, 1 short/med coat lab type ears,smooth tail; ours was the other gold colour but longer coat, more spaniel ears, leg and tail feathering and a white blaze down her front, grew to look similar to a Nova scottia duck toller.
Only 2 of the 5 looked remotely like each other let alone looking like either parent!

It doesn't matter if you think you can tell the difference from how they look, legally and if you want to register the puppies as purebred Akitas, you will need to DNA test the litter. 

I definitely would not opt for a third sire, that is going to mean even more genetic testing because you will need to test him as well.

Although I distinctly get the impression from your messages that you don't plan on doing any DNA testing at all and are just going to attempt to go by what they look like... so I'm done giving advice here...

A quick Google finds that the OP posted the same question on at least 3 different forums. One other also suggested Alizin, one did not. The one which didn't also (incorrectly) said the vet was right and there would not be any crossbred pups. The OP replied they trusted that person's advice the most of the various replies they'd had on various forums. Sometimes there's no point in even trying to help.

Some just don't like hearing the sound advice given & only want to do what they want...which makes you wonder why they bother asking the question to start with, doesn't it?

All I can add is, I do hope the bitch will survive the pregnancy, which can be bad for a bitches health, on occasions & they lose their life....

Exactly, people hear what they want to hear...

Quote......the potential buyers (they don't require pedigree papers as they already saw both parents).

Says it all really.

The alizin injection is the more ethical option.

> quick Google finds that the OP posted the same question on at least 3 different forums.

Yes, just found one of them & how odd that someone can trust one postee, on one forum, above other postees on this forum?! They still said to not proceed with this possible pregnancy!!

I noticed one person on the other forum suggested the first dog could have been infertile so that’s why your skipping to another stud which suggests you aren’t really bothered about the studs qualities as long as it’s another Akita. As for potential owners which Akita are you referring too as the father because you don’t even know! Irresponsible!

vee and lexy how about u get a room together?
open a chat between each other and get over yourselves please

> As i have been told, Alizin can be bad for her health, i don't want that, even tho the best thing to do is to abort and start over in 6months,but the last thing im thinking of now is making money.

The Alizin is is ment to be safer than the old miss mate. I've know three people that have used it (two for accidental litters one for pyo) all three had no problems from it. One was given later in pregnancy and had to give birth to to a still born the rest were reabsorded.

>You think they can be distinguished from how they look? one father is an akita, the other a german shepherd , or it will be hard to know the mixed ones and a test is required?

If you wish to advertise/sell any of them as pure akitas you will have to test them. I've seen photos of akita x shepherds who look like akita so as young puppies while some may be easier to spot as not pure some may not be. So if you do not test them you will have to advertise them as possible crosses.

>Don't you think that's a better idea than mating with the same akita she did before? in case his sperm wasn't that potent or something.

No not realy. All you will be doing is changing your chance of a dule sire litter to a tri sire litter. This would mean you would then need to test all three akita against the puppies to find out which are sired by which akita stud or stray. And if you don't test not only can you not say they are pure bred you can't even guess which is the farther or any that look like they may be from an akita. Anyway this second akita stud how do you know his sperm is good quality? And using him will still not solve the issue that she was maited by a stray. Nothing you do can change this or make his sperm void (other than aborting).

If you don't DNA parentage test this litter you can not pass the puppies off as pure akita nor register any who look pure.

For what it's worth, and I'd still abort this pregnancy!, at one time the KC was encouraging dual mating in breeds that were genetically small, to give diversity without having to take two litters from the same bitch.   I don't know whether this is still the case BUT any such litter required each puppy to be DNA tested to confirm which of the two (same breed, not a stray!) was the sire of which puppy.

How you'd do this with a presumably unknown stray I don't know although if the results showed something different in some puppies I guess that puppy being purebred could be ruled out.

Get the pregnancy aborted - otherwise it's way too messy in terms of selling the puppies!

ps   If the stray was significantly bigger than her, she may well be in trouble re carrying the litter to term, or whelping without needing a C.Section!

I honestly can't believe what im reading here. Any responsible breeder would be using the alizin jab and terminating this pregnancy. Any reputable breeder would be wanting to breed to better their breed not then add in a 3rd potential sire too. This is utter madness and with the breed of the Akita too.
Alizin is pretty safe and know plenty who have had oops matings give this and then go on to mate and produce lovely litters which are planned next time round. I've never heard of any bitch having an adverse reaction when this has been given.

Your response does not show you as a responsible or reputable breeder. Does the owner of the Akita male know about this? I would be livid if this was my lad and you had an oops mating and then plan to add in a 3rd sire too and clearly don't plan to do any DNA testing..

Ditto Suejaw. To continue with this possible pregnancy is the most absurd and irresponsible behaviour; it just beggars belief. The Alizin injections are the sensible way to go for all concerned (including the bitch).

> vee and lexy how about u get a room together?<br />open a chat between each other and get over yourselves

> vee and lexy how about u get a room together?<br />open a chat between each other and get over yourselves please

That makes about as much sense as your breeding plan!

Seen it all too many times before, same response, ask enough people till you get the reply you want and ignore the others.

> at one time the KC was encouraging dual mating in breeds that were genetically small, to give diversity without having to take two litters from the same bitch.

Is this still going on?  And also had anybody brought a bitch to one of my studs let it be known that she'd been mated before in the same season, I'd not have been happy to allow my male(s) near her.   Infection!!   I'd not want a bitch to go on to be mated by another male either!

chamsung made a comment earlier about dual mating's in her breed and the reasons

> Infection!!   I'd not want a bitch to go on to be mated by another male either!

AI is the safe way around dual matings. Yes the KC allow this but every pup needs to be DNA tested.

TBH in the UK we are very lucky not to have brucellosis yet, so I wouldn't be worried about infections...

Even in countries with brucellosis, you can just get a brucellosis check on all dogs to be used in the breeding and there'd be no more risk with 3 than with 2... Popular stud dogs are seeing many bitches a week, don't forget!

Natural is always best.  Please don't let breeding dogs get excessively interfered with by science and interventions.  Science is great, but we really don't need to replace natural processes with artificial unless we want to breed out the ability to reproduce naturally... which surely is a basic requirement for any animal.

> As i have been told, Alizin can be bad for her health,

Then you have been misinformed by someone who hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

Perhaps they were thinking of the old mismate injection.

However, it's obvious that you are prepared to allow your bitch to mate with every Tom, Dick or Harry.  You would probably use a camel if it was for free.  So most definitely not a responsible person, as you are prepared to harm your bitch. 

Good job you're not in this country, as I would report you under the Animal Welfare Act.

However, I think that my thoughts on you now are probably correct.  You're just a troll.

just for you 2 retards who wont get lost and keep giving ur opinion over and over, and im sure you both dont even own a dog coz your mum wont allow it.
ill let my dog screw any dick she wants, and u can die out of jealousy ;) yay!

instead of spamming my thread with both your accounts, that aborting is much better than natural birth, why don't you back it up with something scientific?
because aborting is much much worst than letting her give birth, after asking many vets. But of course, your a retard  ;)
now get lost kid

Uneducated troll.

What a gross person. Your poor dog.

I hope admin just deletes this whole thread.