Hi all

We just picked up our puppy DDB yesterday. She has been a little nervous but coming out of herself a bit today. She came from a breeder with a younger son. She is KC registered and a good line.

We are a little worried as she has growled/barked and half gone for my daughter, son and partner a total of 5 times already, then all of a sudden she is fine to be stroked by them. I have had both son and daughter take her bowl away while eating and she’s fine with this too. She’s 10weeks.

Should we be worried, she is going to get big quick and we don’t want this to become an issue.

Thanks
Matt

Taking her bowl away is an old fashioned disproved dominance method. I’d be angry if you took my food away when I was in the middle of eating. Instead you should add something better to the bowl but show the dog that none of you are a threat.  Order The Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey, this book contains modern, up to date training and socialisation ideas.

Totally agree with golden mum dont remove bowl or anything else from her it will make any possible situation  worse.
Speaking as one who was given that advice some 10 years ago with my gsd .
If there was any guarding going on ,it probably isn't it would just prove to her it's worth guarding as things get removed and food is often very high in the priority list forna dog. So u need to male.her secure in the ways suggested
With the bowl add little extras as u walk past her worh no fuss just a casual add.. if she isn't happy then throw treats towards her at  the distance she is comfortable with. It all needs to be done casually and quietly almost ignoring her
It's very early days so give her a chance to settle and not be swamped by everyone and everything .. It's all.very new and can be scary to a new pup I am sure things will settle down.

> I have had both son and daughter take her bowl away while eating and she’s fine with this too. She’s 10weeks. <br />

DON'T DO THAT.    Unless you want to MAKE this puppy resource guard!!!  This is such an old-fashioned way of 'training'.  By all means make her sit before putting the bowl down, but once you have (in a quiet place where she's not going to be worried about it being taken away), LEAVE HER TO EAT UP IN PEACE.

https://www.thesprucepets.com/breed-profile-dogue-de-bordeaux-1117962

I honestly hope you know what you have taken on and that you bought from an experienced reputable breeder.   Any puppy coming out into the world for the first time is bound to be a bit worried about what's happened to them but this growling, barking and 'half going' for your daughter would worry me - but I'd have to see what really is going on there to know whether or not you have a real problem.

Hi Matt, growling, barking and biting are all perfectly normal puppy behaviours, they're not a sign of aggression. If you google 'the bite stops here' by Roger Mugford it's an excellent article on how to cope with piranha pups

That aside I don't envy you getting a pup at this time, socialisation is so important, especially with a large breed and it's going to be impossible for you in the current situation.

In those early days I always add something extra nice to the bowl whilst the pup is eating so they know that me near the bowl is a really good thing.

Link to "The bite stops here" by Ian Dunbar: http://www.pattesdouces.ca/acces_clients/dog_bite.htm

> In those early days I always add something extra nice to the bowl whilst the pup is eating so they know that me near the bowl is a really good thing.

None of my Bassets knew their bowls were ANYTHING other than 'a really good thing'  .   I also query the need to be adding anything extra to the bowl which is surely still coming near the bowl and not necessary.   NO.    Put the bowl down and LEAVE THE PUP TO EAT UP.   So you don't do anything to suggest it has to defend the bowl.   Defending the food happens with baby puppies round a round puppy-food dish so with some, I'd suggest they will continue to defend their food in their individual bowl.

Each to their own but beware of encouraging resource guarding rather than the opposite!

I totally agree that a dog should.be allowed to eat his food in peace but if  a dog isn't happy with anyone nearby then a solution is needed before it escalates   I started off.using all sorts of incorrect.methods actually escalating the issue then I hit about some decent advise that made.sense

  i didn't actually touch or go near the bowl
casually wandered around at the pups.comfortable distance  without looking at the pup dropped the odd treat near by him
This was for one that was becoming a resource guarder and over time with this method the difficulty was resolved.
Always kept at a distance the pup was comfortable with moving closer if he was happy stepping back if not
.eventually I could.take bones or food from him if I needed to ( rarely did ).
I doubt much will be needed in one so  young as he will soon learn that good things come for his people so know need to.worry.
my problems had  been going on much longer and I had been using bad advice unfortunately.
I do believe u need to be able.to.remove things from a dog as.there could.be a time.that he gets something that is going to injure him .last thing u need is a dog guarding when he has grabbed something nasty

The comment was about me being a good thing near the bowl if you read carefully.   It's all part of the training that works for me and all my dogs, they have never felt a need to guard their food and at times I may have to take away a raw meaty bone and I can without a problem ....  and no need for the capitals, surprisingly perhaps, I really do find it quite easy to read and understand just as well when words are in lower case.

> and no need for the capitals, surprisingly perhaps, I really do find it quite easy to read and understand just as well when words are in lower case.

LOL    For the record, I tend to use caps. when I feel a need to stress a point even if this is seen by some, as shouting.   Sometimes 'shouting' is needed!

I quite agree however, re getting a pup used to having things taken away in case they get hold of something dangerous.   Which is where, if possible, being one step ahead comes in.   I too was always able to take a bone away - which I often did if it got to the point it was chipping bits off.   However I still maintain that a food bowl, specifically, should go down, and left for the dog to eat in peace.    I get the dog used to 'giving up/drop/leave other items.   And more than often that would involve a trade.

Of course we all have to do with what works, for our dogs. 

With the greatest respect, I feel that you don't know a lot about dogs.  I agree  that "The Perfect Puppy" would be a good read for you.  Although it's sold at a large pet store, it's much cheaper to buy online.

Who advised you & your children  to take food bowls away from your puppy ?

Sounds very Dog Whisperer to me, based on very flawed captive artifical wolf pack behaviour.

You are making your puppy become a resource guarder.

With a very yoing puppy just removed from it's litter, where it probably been fed with the rest of the litter at the same time most of the time. Your puppy has yet to learn that no one will take or eat it's food & by you & your children to start from day one to prove your"dominance"by removing it's high value food is total folly. No wonder guarding has happened.

Have you ever had a young puppy before ?

Puppies nip & mouth that's how they learn & it is natural puppy behaviour, She will be apprehensive, she has left her mother & siblings & is in a house with stange smells & people.

How did you manage to collect her yesterday with the current restrictions on travel as collecting a puppy & being in close contact with someone outside of your home isn't allowed at present ?

What did you expect her to do, leave the pup with the breeder for 3-12 weeks.  With a bit of imagination like putting a soft crate somewhere where the puppy can be popped in whilst both still adhering to the 2 metre rule and if you regard travelling to pick up a puppy to have been essential and I would have.  Give the OP a break, she only asked for some advice.

> Give the OP a break, she only asked for some advice.

Doubt he'll make that mistake again

The puppy isn't even resource guarding, but everyone jumped on that bit, the OP says the puppy didn't mind the kids taking the food away. Yep, we all know that's not how you do things NOW, but it used to be, really one person could have explained that to them.

Fairpoint chaumsong ,maybe we are all going a bit stir crazy with all.this lockdown stuff :)

Typical forum, 90% entitled and god like dog trainers, 10% who actually want to help

I’ve not had a puppy in a long time, as I rescued my last dog, but I’ve got this pup from nothing to crate trained, sit on first command and from fighting a leash to slowly walking in a day and a half, I’m not a complete noob just never had a puppy growl at a kid before, however today she is much better, thanks to those who added sound advice and don’t judge.

The KC says they are currently trying to get clarification from DEFRA as to whether people will be allowed to collect puppies from breeders or not. Also mention breeders having to keep litters for longer. https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/breeders-and-coronavirus-covid-19-faqs/?fbclid=IwAR3OFGAIRMTdEg0uctI_ikqA0bj7Nt-rbVrLKVFAtHokueOCGzuf1XpjKmk

Now it’s gone from good to bad again, she’s asleep in kitchen, walks into living room, takes one look at my son, growls, cackles up and as soon as he turns round runs away, but been absolutely fine with him all day

I was trying to help, and my post was certainly polite.  I wasn't being a god like trainer.  Wish I had just blocked you at the start.  I feel so sorry for a pup that has been there such a short  space of time, and you think it can be obedience trained in 2 days.  Given no chance to actually be a puppy.

Aggressive behaviour cannot be laughed off just because it’s a puppy, nipping and barking is one thing fine, cackles up and growling at a child is another it needs addressing

What is the child doing/or has already done, to make the pup scared enough to growl.  And why are kids allowed to mess about with a pup on the day it is brought home?

he was just stood in the living talking to me and my partner and she just started growling at him

Matty, there are several dogue de bordeaux facebook groups that you can join that might give some helpful advice from a breed perspective.

What you're describing in this puppy is fear. For whatever reason, the pup is scared of your son. You may not be able to find out why, we can't always understand exactly what goes in a dog's head, but there are lots of possible reasons. Get your son to sit down and not look at the pup, talk nicely to her, and drop treats a couple of feet away. (Don't try to offer treats by hand at this stage.) No sudden movements or noises. It's a gradual process. Is there anything about your son that the pup may never have encountered before? Such as wearing glasses, wearing a hoodie with the hood up, being a typical kid and moving fast, shouting, anything of the sort. Where was the pup reared with the breeder, indoors in a busy household, indoors in a quiet household or outdoors in a kennel? Did the breeder have children interact with the pups? It sounds like just fear of the unknown. Pups not used to children can be scared of children.

Matty - with the greatest respect, many members of this forum have been on here giving sound, free advice for many years. You have been here 5 minutes.
When you join a forum you will get advice you like and advice you don’t like. Sometimes the advice you don’t like will be the advice you need.
You can use the ‘ignore’ button if you do not want to see the replies of certain members.
Good luck with your pup.

Thank you, it’s starting to look more and more like fear, we are going to get my son to feed her meals today to see if that helps her realise he is no threat.

Hi complete understand that but telling someone they clearly have no experience with dogs is not advice :/

Just to get a bit more info -
where was the pup reared - in the house or in a kennel ?
How old was the breeders son , and how old are your children ?

I think, without SEEING what's going on, I'd worry that this puppy has already gone to an 'attack is the best form of defence' attitude.

Are you in touch with HER BREEDER???

"Just to get a bit more info -
where was the pup reared - in the house or in a kennel ?
How old was the breeders son , and how old are your children ? "

RELEVANT!!

> The KC says they are currently trying to get clarification from DEFRA as to whether people will be allowed to collect puppies from breeders or not

With respect, regardless of what DEFRA/the KC have to say, isn't this up to the individual, acting within the rules as currently laid down by the Government?    For eg. I'd not want any close contact/ a stranger in my property at the moment.  And I'd not be very happy to put a puppy in a crate outside waiting to be collected, even if I was watching from indoors!!   And even assuming I'd met the new owners before the C-virus shut down.

So people have to hold back their puppies for a bit longer and buyers wait a bit longer........ sue the Chinese ()

Thanks for that ignore advice, Mrs Caps has gone in the bin.

If possible i think its wise to perhaps get this filmed. See if a 121 trainer can give advise over the phone and viewing the footage and don't be afraid to call the breeder for advice too, a good one is there to help.
When we are in the middle of something we aren't sure on how to deal with its hard to take a step back and look at it objectively and figure out why the dog is reacting in such a way and whether we are indeed reading it correctly.

You haven't answered my genuine question, who advised you to have members of your family take away the puppy's food dish ?

Put yourself in your puppy's place. In a strange place without your siblings & mother, someone gives you a plate of food which is really tasty & then before you have finished takes it away. Would you just sit there & say or do nothing ? I very much doubt it.

So what can your puppy do, she cannot speak & I doubt you realise that bending over a dog can be very threatening so hence the defensive growling( the first level of warning behaviour of the puppy feeling afraid), then taking the food away(second level snapping to stop the food disappearing after the dish is picked up) & finally repeat the giving food & then removing it(third level nipping to stop the dish being lifted up)

Resource guarding is NOT aggression it is an instinctive behaviour to prevent losing a high value good or item. You can see it between siblings in a litter of fairly young age.

This puppy, as others have written, is clearly afraid of your son & it's not just a case of letting him giving her her food, she needs to learn that humans are a source of food & no threat to her good source. So you all need to reward her(using part of her normal food ration so as not to over feed her plus some higher treats)& all do a little training of the basics. Dogs are far better than we are at reading body language in other animals(including humans)

I don't know what method you use to train your puppy, but for the last 20 odd years I have used the methods of Karen Pryor whose book "Don't shoot the dog" opened up a new world of dog training. You might want to have a look at it & her website

Ann read the original post, the puppy is not resource guarding! zzzzz

Hi there,

I have read through the posts but it is not clear in exactly what contexts the pup has growled, had hackles up and ‘had a go’?

As you say, you are not a novice dog owner, so if you feel something is not right go with your gut instinct.

I would suggest you go abtccouncil.org.uk This is the website for the Animal Behaviour Training Council and holds registers for properly qualified behaviourists and trainers around the uk. Look for an Accredited Animal Behaviourist or Clinical Animal Behaviourist in your area. Try to video some of your pup’s behaviour and you can then send that to whoever you contact. Many behaviourists are offering online consultation and someone should be able to help.

Good luck.

Not yet. Removing food dishes was the old method of preventing resource guarding, which in fact did just the opposite

Do you mean by Ian Dunbar ?

With respect, regardless of what DEFRA/the KC have to say, isn't this up to the individual, acting within the rules as currently laid down by the Government?    For eg. I'd not want any close contact/ a stranger in my property at the moment.

I didn't mean it quite like that (and I agree), I meant that we didn't know if it was legal at all to travel to collect a pup and the KC said they were discussing it with DEFRA. The KC have updated their info now and state that it is currently NOT legal to travel to collect a puppy.

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/for-breeders/breeders-and-coronavirus-covid-19-faqs/?fbclid=IwAR3OFGAIRMTdEg0uctI_ikqA0bj7Nt-rbVrLKVFAtHokueOCGzuf1XpjKmk

As the government measures only allow absolutely essential travel – and this can now be enforced – new owners will not be able to pick up puppies during the current lockdown.

I really feel for breeders at this time .noome could have foreseen what's happened and to be left for an unknown amount of time with a litter is going to be immensely difficult. Albeit for.the right reasons

> Matty, there are several dogue de bordeaux facebook groups that you can join that might give some helpful advice from a breed perspective.

I'd actually be very careful about doing this.  What I found when I was a member of breed groups for my dobermanns (and I've heard it of other molosser types too) is that they tend to be very heavy on the dominance stuff, which is not accurate.  Lots of bad and potentially dangerous advice given out so if the OP does want to look, they should make sure the groups are proponents of positive reinforcement techniques.

> I would suggest you go abtccouncil.org.uk This is the website for the Animal Behaviour Training Council and holds registers for properly qualified behaviourists and trainers around the uk. Look for an Accredited Animal Behaviourist or Clinical Animal Behaviourist in your area. Try to video some of your pup’s behaviour and you can then send that to whoever you contact. Many behaviourists are offering online consultation and someone should be able to help.

This is excellent advice.

If I'm reading your posts right, removing the bowl has NOT caused any issues - you said that was fine.  It sounds like pup is frightened of your son which is a separate issue (but I agree, removing the bowl during a meal is not a good plan and may start to extend that fear to that specific situation and trigger guarding behaviour).

Videoing it and getting in touch with a professional is an excellent idea.  Joining an FB group such as Fearful Dogs or Reactive Dogs would also be a good idea.  For now I would be minimising interactions between them to give pup more time to settle in, and building a good association him your son - so he appears nearby and good stuff happens (food usually works best).  But, NOT having your son feed her, rather you feed her instead so you're building the association without the proximity that frightens her.