Hello All.  I've been a lurker for some time now. Gathering information making sure I'm doing everything right and responsibly.  So far so good.  I just wanted to share last nights amazing experience.  I'm a first time breeder (bitch).  Medium breed with both show and working lines.  My gorgeous girl is now three and has both lines though predominantly working.  Health testing fine.  We mated her in September to a gorgeous sire.  Both excellent temperaments.   Last night from 10pm through to 4.30am she whelped an amazing and fantastic litter of 6.  65 days after 1st mating. 63 after 2nd.  All appear healthy.  I'm still very much in touch with her breeder who is there as mentor if needed.  Also still in touch with Sire family who are thrilled as this is a first litter for both.  They also have experienced breeder on hand for advice.  All will be KC registered and I will be keeping one.  I am so very proud of my girl.  Only trouble now is she's brough them all onto the sofa with me! Tried putting them back in the box but she was having none of it so I'm hoping to try again later when I weigh and sex them properly.   I've been reading countless CD posts over the months and thankyou for your unknowing but much appreciated knowledge which has helped prepare me well.  Please forgive any gaps I may have in knowledge. I'm learning.  I'm also a midwife by trade which held me in good stead I think!

My friends who breed stay by the whelping box for many days after the birth. They don't leave the bitch alone & most have the whelping box in the living area so the bitch can be with them without leaving or moving the puppies

To avoid situations like that (wanting the puppies up with us) we too have the half-section (4 X 4 with a pig rail) in the living room so one of us can be with her, at least overnight, sleeping on the sofa.   Once the puppies were up and moving around, and mum didn't want to be in with them 24/7, we moved that section of the box into the kitchen and added a second 4 X 4 section, that section having a hinged door for mum to come and go through.   The initial section had a low edge so mum could (just about bearing in mind our low to ground breed!) get over and out, but not the puppies.   That low piece was removed when the second section was added.

When in another property with a litter, we had a camp bed in the room with the whelping box which again meant mum had no need to want to be with us, and bring the puppies with her!!

Congratulations to mum for letting you have a trouble-free initiation re the world of breeding.   Hope it continues.   These early weeks should be basically easy on you, provided you have a good mum.   It's once weaning starts, that your work really starts!!

Thanks. Yes that was totally my plan but she won't have it at all.  It's fine on the sofa if there's someone awake constantly aware and I've been able to create a safe barrier across half of the sofa but not a good solution.  Tonight I'll be bedding down on the floor and I've cut one side of the box down (cardboard) halfway so hopefully I'll be able to persuade her to stay in it.  I'll be placing all her food and water in it too.  I think at the moment she literally needs to be sat right with me.  I'm so immensely proud of her.   Again thanks for your replies.  I'm about to get some much needed sleep while my daughter takes over.  One daft question.  The pups arrived overnight either side of midnight.  For registration purposes which will be the birth date?  No I didn't note exactly which pup came when and we have one black (easy) three choc and two golden. No idea which was which times.

Jo

The later otherwise the later born puppies will be registered as a day older than they really are, unless there's a show whose entries close & the earlier date would qualify the puppies for entry & the later one wouldnt

> For registration purposes which will be the birth date?  No I didn't note exactly which pup came when and we have one black (easy) three choc and two golden. No idea which was which times.

We have always used the date the first was born, in this situation.

Also we have always noted which pup was born in which order(although I suppose this isn't something most do)...mind you they have all had different markings.

Our whelping box has always been enclosed by caging, so the bitch cant take her pups where she shouldn't....

Thank you.  I think I'll go for the later since the majority were after midnight.  They are lovely chunky pups.  All active and appear to be feeding well.  I've weighed three of them though I hadn't thought to get precision digital scales so kitchen scales will have to do.  I just need to know they are gaining.  It really was amazing.  Just as much satisfaction midwifing a dog as a human in fact! :)   I'm glad it's done and she's fine. She's bounced back brilliantly so far.  Two weeks ago we weren't even 100% sure she was pregnant.  Now I can see just how much she much have grown every day.

Congratulations on your litter. I designed and had built for me a whelping box big enough for me to sleep in (if needed) with the bitch--just as well as last time I was in the box for over 30 hours with my bitch by the time they'd all arrived. I work from home and set my desk up on one side of the box, put a single bed on the other side and found everyone was very happy with that arrangement.

Well here I am.  On the floor in the living room.  And despite my best efforts she is still on the sofa. On my right is the box and on my left is the hearth.  My head is literally against the bottom of the sofa.  I couldn't be closer to the box.  The side has been lowered so I can rest my arm over her if need be but she's not having it at all.  I tried moving them and her but she was adamant and just tried moving them all back.  If I keep messing she may well inadvertently injure one as she's so desperate to move them back quickly.  I'm a lightish sleeper and if any are protesting at being trapped they're quite vocal so hopefully I'll be alert to any problems. I've ensured they can't fall anywhere and the sofa has fixed cushions so they cant get stuck in any crevices so I'll just have to make it as safe as possible for now.

> The pups arrived overnight either side of midnight.  For registration purposes which will be the birth date?

I always put the date of birth as when the litter was complete - ie when the last puppy was born. After all, the for asks for the date of birth of the litter, not the first pup.

This is why we always had our bitches sleeping IN their whelping box at least a week before delivery.  No way would I want puppies up on a sofa, too much risk of them falling off or of the sofa needing to be chucked after 'bodily fluids' ruined it.

Litter dob - the later date.

I never put mum's food, or water in the box with newborns.

> Also we have always noted which pup was born in which order(although I suppose this isn't something most do)...

> Our whelping box has always been enclosed by caging, so the bitch cant take her pups where she shouldn't.

Ditto, in fact my whelping area is always covered with a blanket to form a cave (I add a puppy panel across the top with zip ties.)

I use a gated puppy panel across the front, I line the insides of the puppy panels with cardboard to insulate and protect from draughts, this way I don't need to keep the room uncomfortably warm for us and the bitch, I use a heat-pad of about A4 size in the middle of the whelping are for the pups benefit, and bitch can then like around the edges so she isn't baked..

Well there was some success eventually.  Not in the box but she did bring them off the sofa onto my bed.  I think she just really wanted to be with me as though she was saying she needed help so she basically dumped them on me.  Now on bedding.  All content too so think her milk has come in.  This really is fairly similar to the first days with a human baby isn't it?  Especially as a midwife on a postnatal ward! I've got the fire on in the room and a hot water bottle under the bedding so a warm room but the rest of the house isn't sweltering.  It's my bedding she's on.  Good job I have spare duvets so I can rotate them

Just one thought, is the whelping bed comfy enough? Maybe a few layers of paper and then nice thick vetbed on top? They really would be much safer in there if possible. The thought of having them on the sofa scares me, pups can be quite mobile and with the best will in the world sometimes our attention wanders, you can be there beside them but you can't stare at them 24/7.

It's ok Chaumsong.  They're off the sofa now and on bedding.  A good sized space warm and comfy with no draughts.  I'd still prefer the box but it'll have to be one battle at a time.  Overnight I let her have her way because she was clearly frustrated at my putting then in the box.  I didn't want her to end up abandoning them because she wanted to be with me or injuring them in her haste.  This is a very stubborn breed indeed!

Always remember too that newborn puppies cannot regulate their own heat and once they become morbidly chilled, they won't nurse, with the inevitable conclusion.   We had a brood/heat lamp over the whelping box which not only supplied a nice even heat, but kept the area dry.   The light from that, even if it was red, meant the person sleeping in with mum and brood overnight could do a quick head-count during the night to make sure allwas well without having to actually switch on a light.    More often than not we had to drape a sheet across the back of the box, to allow mum to lie under without getting over-hot.

Goodness, there's no way I'd have a bitch with her pups on the sofa OR in my bed.  There's a reason we use whelping boxes with suitable pig rails in the early days. 

The bitch shouldn't have access to the sofa or your bed.  The only choice of a place to be should be the whelping box.  We whelp in the kitchen with a stairgate on the door, so there is no sofa or bed or other suitable place accessible.  But then, I do sleep immediately outside the whelping box for 3 weeks on a camp bed - so the bitch doesn't want to be anywhere else anyway. 

If you try to sleep or relax anywhere other than right outside the whelping box, for many bitches, you are stressing the bitch because you are creating conflict between her desire to be with you at this time and her desire to be with her puppies - this stress is not great for the pups or the mum.

MamaBas yes I'm aware of the need for warmth.  While human and canine body temp is different, the physiology of thermoregulation and the role of the hypothalamus is the same.  They are warm, active and feeding well.  Human babies will become lethargic and quiet to conserve energy, they stop feeding, blood glucose drops, Hypoglycaemia/hypothermia sets in.  I'm on it :)

1234  She didn't whelp on the sofa or in my bed.  She whelped in the whelping box with no issue.  Once it seemed to be finished and all were safe and settled after first feed she went to toilet.  We quickly changed the whelping box.  Made it clean and comfy.  Transferred pups back in.  (Gloves were worn when touching/checking pups).  I then went to catch some sleep for an hour while my son in law kept watch.  I got woken up because they were worried that she was moving her pups to the sofa and they didn't know what to do.  I tried to persuade her to stay in the box to no avail.  It was early morning by this point so she spent yesterday on the sofa.  I'm camped out in the same room anyway. Not on my actual bed, in the living room on the floor.  In the early hours she then insisted on bringing them all to me.  Hoping this meant she would now go in the whelping box because I'm literally right next to it I transferred them again.  Didn't work.  So she remains on my bedding in a warm comfy spacious pit and I'm ejected.  If I'd kept constantly putting them in the whelping box then I definitely WOULD have stressed both her and the pups.  I'm just going to have to rotate duvets for hygiene reasons.

You have probably already thought of it but any good putting the duvet that has your scent - that she is currently on - into the whelping box?

Yes.  But that would pad the box a LOT so the pig rails would be pointless.   At least this duvet for she's in now has soft sides so puppies have a chance of shuffling out from behind her.  In a solid sided box they wouldn't.   I think it's purely because she would normally sleep on my bed that she's chosen where she has.

I think you might find your bed gets very messy in the days and weeks to come, not to mention the risk of pups falling off it - unless you can convince her to move now.  It's not just about what works right now, but setting something up which is going to be suitable for the next 3 weeks...

As others have said, she needs to be contained in an area where the only comfortable choice is the whelping box - and she needs to have her 'person' in that area 24/7 at first.  You may be able to do shift work with it once the pups are a bit older, but clearly right now she wants you with her...

It's sad that occasionally a bitch will find it hard to switch off being a pet, and be a mum!  Although usually the maternal instinct kicks in, it sounds as if you have one of these, which can be difficult.  As others have said, eventually, if not already, things are going to get very messy.  I guess it's a toss up between upsetting her to the point she turns on her puppies, or having to crank up the washing maching 24/7 LOL.

Everyone...I repeat, she's not ON my bed.  She's on my BEDDING on the living room floor where I've set up camp lol. I haven't left her side except to brew up and wee. I am at least dressed today lol.  However I have to change that bedding today so I'm going to try the whelping box again.  I managed a couple of decent chunks of sleep last night and she's being a fab mum so I'll try and make the box extra appealing today and try again.  And I think you're right she's so utterly attached so me that I think she gets torn between me and the pups but so far I can't fault her mothering skills.  It is lovely to see her bouncy again instead of cumbersome.  They are chunky little things I don't know where she hid them.  I knew there were at least 3 but 6!!?

And yes MamaBas that's why I haven't forced the issue too much.  It's her first (probably only) litter so I don't want to disrupt her mothering to the point where she abandons or turns on them. Thanks.

Thinking more on this - just perhaps you may have to deal with this by allowing her to be out of the box, with you and only go in to feed them when they shout?   But if she's hell-bent on pulling them out AND being with you, that may not work either.

I had one who was a bit of a madam to the point she'd 'pee' her litter, but have NOTHING to do with the other!  That was well beneath her.   As a result the poor dears spent most of their early days rather constipated, despite my best efforts with a soft damp cloth......... even sitting them in a shallow bowl of warm water in an effort to get things moving.

Her other trick was to want out of the box (by this time the full 4 X 8 box was in operation with 3 foot sides and a hinged door at the end for access).   I'd make sure the pups had had a good innings and were all settling down for a nap, let her out at which point she'd sit by the door and squeak, stirring them all up again!   Nightmare and as soon as they were well into weaning, her trips in there were far less frequent and once out, she was back with the others so she had no chance to be stirring them all up again.   She only had the one litter, nice as they were.

Success!! I prepared the box with a pillowcase stuffed with towels and a hotty together with blankets.  When she got up for food and a wee I swung into action.  She saw me put them all in the box and I whipped all the bedding away.  She tried to move one but I also had treats ready.  She left them in there and is now settled in there feeding them.  She did go a bit funny searching the room (can't she count lol) or maybe looking for a new spot to take them.  But fingers crossed they'll stay there now.

Hello Huga - I have so loved reading you and your bitch and pups' story. I'm a little like you (although not a midwife!) - I have been a 'lurker' too and there is so much invaluable info and help on these forums. My working cocker bitch is in day 59 and doing amazingly well despite being obviously quite uncomfortable! I am also a first timer at this, as is she. The only thing I'm slightly concerned about is that she has shown no interest in her whelping box at all. I have tried everything - familiar toys, bedding she has slept on and feeding her occasionally in there. She likes to be 'under' furniture at the moment so I've created a lid on the box and a couple of other little dens around the kitchen/living space which she is used to being in with us for most of the time. She is very attached to me and I plan to stay with her at all times from now until well after the pups are born. Do you have any advice on how to encourage her into her box? She is also digging holes under a bush in the garden - which I know is also a primal instinct and quite normal. I would just like to encourage her to have her babies indoors!! Any advice would be much appreciated!

Hi.  I'm sure there'll be lots of more experienced people to comment but here's my 2p.  My girl wasn't particularly interested either.  She did sit in it a few times before the event but wasn't really bothered. I didn't see much nesting behaviour either though.  During labour she still didn't bother much as she was so restless.  Once she was well established she jumped on my knee in a bit of a panic pushing and I thought she was going to birth on my knee.  She did though get into the box of her own accord about ten minutes before the first pup and then stayed there until the end so as long as you stay right there for reassurance she will probably choose the box.  I think though that I wouldn't give her any options for a den elsewhere since you'll need to be able to see the pups clearly for quick headcount and if she births elsewhere she may not be happy with moving to the box afterwards. If you've read the rest you'll know that she then decided to vacate to the settee pups and all.  It took the next 24hrs to get them all safely settled back in the box.  I am pleased to report that all six are doing fantastic.  She has been a brilliant mum.  We've chosen our keeper and three others have homes lined up so far.  It's been fun and now verging on chaos with our crazy baby dog gang.  I slept right beside them for the first week with regular toilet wake up taps from mum.

Thanks so much Huga - I can only hope my girl is as good as yours sounds - I'm sure she will be as they sound quite similar in temperament!

Hi this will be my first time to have litter of puppies. i am wondering where to get them all vaccinated. just first vaccine. please can you give me any advice on which vaccines to use . which will be safe. or would you leave it up to buyers to do them self .

There's no way I'd give pups 1st vaccines, because it's unlikely that the new owners' vets will use the same brand of vaccine as your vet.  This leads to the new vets restarting the vaccines from scratch - and the pups receiving 3 vaccines in total, instead of just 2. 

So - don't vaccinate and give the new owners a blank slate to start with.

> There's no way I'd give pups 1st vaccines, because it's unlikely that the new owners' vets will use the same brand of vaccine as your vet.  This leads to the new vets restarting the vaccines from scratch - and the pups receiving 3 vaccines in total, instead of just 2.  <br />

This was exactly my thinking when we were breeding.   All too often a new owner's vet will 'start again'.   I know it's now common practice to put the first set in, but it's NOT what I did.

Worming, from 2 weeks of age and every two weeks to the time they go to their new homes - fine.   Sending the new owners off with a worming history, what used and when given, for their vet to see.   I recommended my puppy buyers to worm again at arouind 3 months.

I agree as a prospective owner not breeder o always prefer to use my own vet for all vaccines.
Its something  that to me is very important

I've explained to all my new owners that pups will not be vaccinated and the reasons why as above.  They will be vet checked, wormed, flead and chipped.  I've also said they should have a vet check within 72 hours to allow for weekend collection so they can vaccinate then. I'm assuming though Pettit that you already have a vet you use.  Would you not get them done there if you were to vaccinate?

Huga, do your pups have fleas? If not why treat them for fleas?

Golden mum.  I can't exclude the possibility totally.  I have two cats and it was a horrendous year for fleas.  I can't guarantee that there isn't the odd one about.  I treat and control as needed but I don't want to send even one flea on one pup.

Surely treating them as you find them is the approach you should take with your pups too. I do not understand why anyone would expose such young puppies to chemical flea treatment unnecessarily.

Golden mum I've seen flea dirt on a couple of them.  I've treated them with capstan once which did the trick but if I find any more evidence I will send them treated.   All my animals are treated and my house but I can never guarantee there isn't any at all in the house because I don't over treat. I've been reluctant to house spray with young pups around but while they're off for their vet check next week I'll be doing it while I know I have a couple of hours at least.

I don't think you're really reducing their exposure to pesticides if you spray whilst they're out the house - that stuff stays in the environment, on surfaces and as residue.