I am considering getting a puppy soon, I have done substantial amount of research but there is one question I am unsure about, where I live our neighbour has two dogs, they stay primarily in the patio area of their garden and are never taken for a walk. They can't see us and definitely can't get into our garden but whenever we step into our back garden they start barking a lot, do you think this would cause problems for my puppy when I'm letting her run around or for toilet training? A husband and wife live there, the husband works and the wife doesn't but she goes out in the day sometimes. When she is home and the dogs bark she tends to quieten them down after a few minutes, but when she isn't the will bark a lot if we step into our back garden. We do not have a great relationship with them, none of the surrounding neighbours do so approaching them about it would be difficult, they do not believe there is a problem (probably because they are never around to hear the barking).

Any help anyone can provide on this would be greatly appreciated.

Can anyone help please?

I am sure some of.our behvaiousts will give advice but if u can work with your pup to ignore and focus on u and not allowing him to be left I   the garden if he does start barking will all help . It will also be useful.for.your training for him to learn to ignore things
I've found that mine actually ignore.others barking around.them in other gardens and we have a couple.who can be a bit noisy at time .
If mine do start to respond a quick no and if.needed calling them in works well

Thanks for your reply, I will never leave my dog on her own in the garden, not as a puppy or adult. I want to do what you said and train the puppy up to ignore the noise but because I am a first time owner I have decided to get professional dog trainers to help, I've settled on using a trainer from 'Bark Busters'. The dream is for the dog to be like yours and not be bothered at all by the noise

I've heard of bark busters as they  are nationwide but make sure the  trainer is a reward  based  trainer.no punishment only positive training.
Its surpsring how many still use pack leader or alpha terms and dont reward the dog for its work.reward doesn't have to be food based although most dogs respond well to food it can also be praise or .a toy .it is however necessary  that the dog gets some sort indicator that it's doing the right thing .

Befpre we think mine is perfect lol she might ignore other dogs when she is  in the
Garden both  a foxes are a whole.different ball.game.

I have to make sure she is being sensible and not bothering anyone as she will take off a 40 miles and hour woofing until she is happy the foxes is in the next county

The ability of "Bark Busters" trainers seems not only very expensive, but also somewhat hit & miss ! Probably because it's an international franchise business, no qualifications required & training is done"in house" so you could get a brilliant force free trsiner or one from the dark age of dog training.

Tread carefully there are better companies & trainers out there

Are there trainers in the Wolverhampton (West Midlands) area that you know off, I thought in-house training would be better to train the puppy right where the biggest problem will be.

Regarding punishment training I have to be honest and say I did not even know that kind of training still existed, every book I read says do not punish a puppy for doing something wrong like toileting in the wrong place, I'd never want to do that. How can I make sure any trainer I use doesn't do aggressive training? Ask them their training methods and what they do?

From their website:
"The Bark Busters method of training is based upon how dogs naturally communicate with each other. Our approach is non-physical and as stress free as possible for both you and your dog.

We DO NOT use techniques such as hitting or smacking, shock or spray collars, choke chains, pronged collars, alpha rolling (pinning the dog down), shouting or anything physical in our approach to training. In addition , as our approach is based upon how dogs communicate we don't rely on the use of treats or lures. Although treats are a great way to reward your dog we don't concentrate on their use for dog behaviour and training. We teach you how to control your dog without the use of a lure.

We teach you how to use your VOICE TONE and BODY LANGUAGE to control your dog... both on and off lead, at your home, at the park... anywhere you need it."

Okay I see more what you meant, I can handle other things the dog may do but as long as she is not scared by the neighbour dogs I am prepared to deal with it. Fortunately we do not have many foxes in the area

The idea of not using treats or lures in training is a huge red flag to me.

Food is a super powerful motivator for a lot of dogs and saying right from the beginning that you’re not going to use it, before you’ve even found out what motivates a particular dog, seems totally wrong to me.

Most Labradors love food so much that expecting them to work as enthusiastically for praise as they would for a piece of chicken seems ridiculous.

I’m a firm believer that THE DOG is the only one who gets to say what it finds reinforcing. My old lab would happily work for raw broccoli while my neighbour’s golden would look at me like I was crazy if I offered that as a reward. My Papillon pup loves toys but he doesn’t love them enough (yet) for them to be rewarding enough to learn new behaviours or modify existing ones. He doesn’t enjoy something just because I say he should!

I’d also be concerned about anything to do with “how dogs naturally communicate with each other”. Dogs know we aren’t dogs. I’m all for learning dog body language to understand your dog better and learn how your own body language affects them, but I worry that “communicating like a dog” sounds a lot like a certain very famous professional dog trainer who makes a living from making TV shows where he basically bullies dogs into what he calls “submission” but any behaviourist will tell you is actually a shut down state.

I was concerned by that paragraph, I know they are never going to say we do punishment training on their website but it does seem they must do something on the aggressive side if they do not use treats/lures. I want to use treats personally (just remembering to maybe substitute some calories from main meals) I do not want my dog to be scared of me or scared to do stuff, which sounds like the shut down state you mentioned. Fortunately I have decided to wait to get a dog until next year so I can do more research and find a better trainer. I do wonder what they do if they do not use treats or lures. This will be my first ever dog so I am very very apprehensive of making a mistake when it comes to training, its hard to know which trainer to go with as I do feel I need one, given the dogs next door and my obvious inexperience I'm trying to ensure I do the right thing by the dog.

Totally agree with the previous comment. Mine  all work best for food although love toys. Now they dont always have a treat just verbal praise unless learning something new. I must say there website did seem to vague for me .
Have a look at the apdt trainers .they are positive reward based . Also any trainer u are interested in should allow u to come  and watch a class so u get a feel for.them .mamy do one to one work as well.
There is another organisation that I've forgotten but hopefully  nikita who is a behaviourist trainer will.be along to help and avoid anyone who mention caesar Milan his style of training .

Hi - I agree with all other comments.  It's great you are doing so much research before getting your dog - very worthwhile & good for you.

You need to run a mile from any trainer who talks about dominance, pack leaders, communicating "like a dog" and submission.  As furriefriends says, looking up APTD trainers in your area would be a good start.

Regarding noisy dogs next door: it is perfectly possible to train your dog not to respond and eventually to ignore his/her noisy neighbours.  I have two Labs and a dog-proof garden front and back.  However, I never leave them unsupervised in either - especially the front garden.  Too risky.  Someone might turn up and leave the gate open or, worse, disappear with the dogs!

At the front we have a thick wired hedge.  Many, many owners with dogs pass by on the pavement all day, every day, on their way to their woodland walks which are near us.  I have managed to train our two not to respond to any dogs they see/hear/smell through the hedge.  If I had not done this they could easily have ended up being "fence runners"  - charging up and down and possibly barking at every passing dog.

Through clicker training and rewards with fun, toys and FOOD (!) it has become a lovely game for them to briefly "clock" the passing dog and then run to me (silently) for their reward.  Perfect!  We also have a yappy dog next door - same approach - works a treat.

(In contrast I pass many houses on my walks where dogs fly at their gates or bark through their fences.  Owners sometimes try and stop this by yelling at their dogs or calling them - all in vain.  Doesn't work!)

Food is your training friend especially if your dog is a Lab!

Good luck with your continuing research.

http://www.apdt.co.uk/

http://www.forpaws.net/forpawsblog/read_75496/what-are-you-paying-for.html  although this is a bit old it may be of use and includes the other training organisation  that I couldn't remember

The term "fence runners" is a very appropriate phrase I would use to describe the two dogs, we pose no threat and they cannot see us but the slightest sound sets them off, although I know its not their fault they must be bored out of their minds.

I am going to look at the APTD trainers website provided, I and more and more certain I will not use "Bark Busters", their methods just do not seem to go along with a happy dog, seems fear-based if anything.

Our front garden is completely open so that's a no-go but I will look to make the back garden work, I have artificial grass right outside the patio door I will use for toileting so hopefully that helps the whole process.

All these replies and the advice is invaluable.

I can't thank you enough for the article from forpaws, its not that old I don't think but some of the advice in there is really eye-opening. I did think I had done a lot of research into the Labrador breed but I've clearly not done enough into trainers

I have messaged several trainers from the APDT website, almost all of the ones in my local area are based in Birmingham so hopefully I find one that will travel

be careful and wary is my advice. I think if you can go view a class that is running kennel club good citizan scheme classes that would be a good start.  at least those have actual aims and will give you a well socialised dog with a grounding in doing what he is told.  if you like the class sign up and if you need additional help outside of class the trainers will likely do private lesson or be able to recommend someone good..
there are a lot of very poor quality classes and trainers unfortunatly but its worth hunting down a good group class as teaching a pup to behave with other dogs about is very valuable. more then one to one lessons in my opinion.

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/training/good-citizen-dog-training-scheme/information-for-dog-owners/good-citizen-dog-scheme-training-clubs/dog-training-clubs-in-the-west-midlands/   from  the kennel.club site . Still be wary and check it out   also https://www.wolverhamptondogtrainingsociety.co.uk/  might be worth a look

Thank you for all of this, I never thought about viewing a class first to be honest but I certainly will now, the vets I wish to use (St. George's Vets) run puppy socialisation classes so that will also be something I will look to take advantage off, on top of all my other socalising activities I have planned

viewing a class is essential. without puppy.  many have lovely websites and sound great on phone but actual class is lacking.  I went to view one that for over 40 minutes involved everyone sitting as far apart as possible doing nothing except feed dogs when another dog barked.I was confused what that was supposed to achieve .   another where everyone just sat there while trainer went on about id disks and how to groom - that one had about 10 minutes training and 40 minutes being lectured.   
a good class will have aims , ie pups should have learnt walk on lead, a sit, a down and recall by end of course.  more importantly learnt to do them when lots of interesting fun puppies in room to distract and thats why I like to take- you can't teach ignore very easily unless have a room full of distractions.  easy to do it when no distractions- harder when fun things about.

Just to say that when I decided to give obedience training a go with one of my Basset (whose dad was an American Conformation and Obedience Champion) I went in on the basis that while she was enjoying it, fine, but the moment she stopped, I'd stop.   The local classes were run by people who were into the Doberman and it was fine at first although to them using food was a huge No-no.   I didn't like that because if nothing else, my breed thrives on food treats and for example, a treat held between the knees would be a huge incentive for a solid/fast recall!   But if that was their way, so be it.   However, it was when they started to get me to be more full-on with my hound, and she stopped cooperating, that all that ended.

So yes, FOOD!!   I would say that much of what she learnt did stay with her even after the classes stopped.

ps both those classes other people had told me were great- but it was clear afterwards they thought they were great because they liked the trainers and had never seen a good class.  you cannot go on personal recommendation alone- viewing is essential
and of course no violent methods, ie no choke chains with puppies, reward based is what you are after.

Another point is that the instructor is adaptable .......... what works for one pup may be a dismal failure for another.
The exercise being taught is the same but needs to take into account what motivates and rewards each individual puppy.

I chose a puppy class partly based on the recommendation of a member on here! I did of course read up on the trainer and satisfy myself that her training philosophy meshed with my own, but I didn’t actually go to see a class before I booked the puppy course.

I did meet all their trainers at an event a few weeks before class though, and it was pretty obvious from talking to them that they were right for us.

When checking out trainers, I think it’s a good idea to ask specific questions about how they work. Like “how would you teach a puppy to sit?” and “what do you try next if the dog doesn’t respond?” and “how do you stop a dog jumping up at people?”. I’d be looking for someone who understands behavioural science so certain words in their answers will tell me what kind of trainer they are.

Things I like to hear: motivation, reward-based, FOOD, positive reinforcement, counter-conditioning, redirection, teaching what to do instead of an undesirable behaviour rather than stopping it, desensitisation, creating confidence, “aggression stems from fear”, helping dogs to live in our world, marker/clicker training, life rewards, recommending harnesses, settling on a mat, body language/understanding your dog, socialisation, five freedoms, what a dog’s needs are, “cue” rather than “command”, FUN, bonding/developing a relationship, partnership.

Things I’d run a mile from: dominance, pack leader, shock or vibration, citronella, water sprays, penny cans or other aversive noises, “communicating like a dog”, anti-bark collars, choke chains, any physical force, intimidation, dog “learning its place” (not always bad by itself but rings alarm bells in combination with other dodgy terms), punishment, “balanced” training or “using all four quadrants”, anything that claims that dogs are exactly the same as wolves, claiming that their experience trumps modern scientific research.

I have to admit I’m also wary of trainers with a military or police dog training background unless they are very clearly crossover trainers using positive methods. I don’t trust anyone who offers quick fixes or guarantees to solve whatever problem you have. And the trainer should be training YOU, not the dog!

And the trainer should be training YOU, not the dog!

Someone said to me my class had the name wrong, It should be 'Dog Owners training class'

Some of the exercises I tried to give a 'real life' reason to do eg Dog sitting to cross the road. Competition says dog sits to front you lose marks - but I'm never going to do competitions..........
Round this way dogs sits to front - its into the road and just been splatted by a dirty great Sugar -beet lorry! They could see a good reason for it then.

The Bark Busters website does seem more like the things you stay away from, communicating like a dog specifically. I really do wonder what they do if they do not use treats or lures, it must be something very aggressive or dominant. Reading the reviews as well its a lot of people who were struggling to control or train their dog so used Bark Busters and suddenly their dogs were better, but better sounds like the dogs being forced into the shut-down state mentioned above. I feel I got lucky and posted about here and have avoided a whole world of damage I might not have even realised I'd caused

It may be that they use vocal reward rather than treats etc. Not the end of the.world but I do prefer treats or adapting to what the dog works best for. 
Ive worked for s short time e with trainer who was like.that some years ago . And indeed the breed specific group I attended in the dark ages was praise only .
Looking back that particular practice was not a problem although others could have been

then dog training was very much different  to how morden trainers work.
Some of.the other practices have made me feel very guilty but like u at the time I knew no different  at the time even though it was a lifetime ago  and sadly some rather unpleasant training still goes on .

I agree with silver leaf re police or military style trainers.again something ive used briefly within the last 10 years   and wasn't at all happy .I am sure some do crossover to more.modern methods but this one was too harsh to me. Not to mention making me feel like an idiot for wanting to use treats and be work with my dog not force him .
Seems u have to kiss a lot of.frogs before.u find the good one :)

The two trainers/clubs I have worked with since are brilliant . They trained me very well !!!

All the replies have been hugely helpful, especially regarding how to find a dog trainer. I've spoken to a lot of trainers, some say the dogs next door will be an issue others say it will require greater training. I have decided to approach the neighbours about this, and ask if they can keep their dogs indoors when they do out (they are indoors at night so I know its got to be possible). Not entirely sure what I will say without them taking offence, slight worry that they'll go the other way and intentionally make things worse but I have to try.

I'd suggest that you have a plan for teaching your puppy to be 'ok' with the dogs next door, before you even bring her home.  I would take her out far away from that side of the garden and be armed with a load of treats.  As soon as you hear any barking from next door, just dump a load of amazing treats on the floor and point each one out to her. 

If, every time the barking happens, you dump treats on the floor like this (and they are amazing and not boring!) she will actually like the barking and see it as a cue to focus on you.

I would not recommend ever having her in the garden unsupervised where you can't control what's happening or provide the treats - that is likely to lead to her barking back as she matures, and you ending up with fence-fighting... or to a fear of barking dogs.

That's a good idea, I was thinking things similar plus making sure I do not show any major reaction to the noise, so hopefully the puppy can follow my lead. Any other ideas are welcome, the more the better.

I will never be leaving the dog unsupervised in the back garden, I want the main exercise to come from walks outside but regardless of whether she is a puppy for 2 years old I won't leave her on her own outside for any length of time

https://eileenanddogs.com/blog/2014/04/07/barkbusters-review-myths-about-barking/

Thanks for the link.  Great article -should be read by anyone starting out and trying to find good trainers and avoid the bad ones.  Excellent!

Agreed we should keep that for others to read when looking for.trainers

You’re welcome, completely by coincidence I got an email telling me that Eileen had updated that post just after we’d been talking about Bark Busters, perfect or what?

I can very much recommend her whole blog. She isn’t a professional trainer but she does an excellent job of explaining various issues and gives great advice on how to argue against so many of the old ideas, with a heavy focus on the actual science behind behaviour. And she’s extremely honest when she gets things wrong with her own dogs!

Thank you to everyone on this thread, I have found a positive enforcement trainer from the APDT website. I have discussed the neighbour dogs with her and once I have my puppy she will be coming out for some 121 sessions.

Just a suggestion, but I'd recommend having one of those sessions before you even bring your puppy home.  That way you will be able to set everything up right from the moment the puppy sets foot in your house and you will know how to approach going into your garden from the very first outing...

Again that is not something that crossed my mind but I do think would be really good. Do many dog trainers do that? I'm not bothered by paying for an extra session I'm not getting a dog and then going to start saving money. I'll ask the trainer I found but they would be travelling already from Birmingham to Wolverhampton so maybe they would only do so when the puppy is here.

Most trainers (including me!) do a pre-puppy visit.  It is great to catch people before they actually have the puppy and before they've started to make mistakes.  Often there are products to recommend people buy before bringing the pup home (equipment etc) and that way people have it all before they have the pup.  The trainer can also advise on layout of your house, where puppy should sleep or where the crate should be, stairgate placement and loads more...