We live in the UK and are adopting a female breeding dog. The breeder does not need her anymore. We are not intending in breeding from her, but the requirement for taking her is that she is spayed. We'd rather keep her natural and be careful/responsible during her cycle (i.e. keep her on the lead during that period). But according to the breeder we must have her operated. Are there any vets in the UK that can do tubal litigation or such procedures? Or even vets in Europe? Please let me know as I am desperate.

If I were that breeder, I'd have her spayed BEFORE looking for a new home for her!  I don't know about any procedure that isn't as good as, or better, than a straight-forward spay.   I'd get her spayed asap - even if as she's not yet spayed, she could still develop a female cancer... and there's always the risk of a Pyometra.   If she's spayed, at least that won't happen.  And why continue with the need to confine twice a year for 3 weeks, when spaying is usually simple and once done, not something to have to worry about.

If u are on Facebook join the ovary sparring group who have a list of vets who will do spays other than the usual.full removal .
This is who I used to have a ovary sparing  spay .they may well know others as I k ow there is at least one other in south londonhttp://www.parksidevet.com/services/

https://www.parsemus.org/projects/ovary-sparing-spay/

How old is she? If she is an older bitch it's far better for her to be done than not now

I suppose the only reason the breeder isn't having it done before homing (as would be the most sensible thing) is that the timing's wrong. For her health I'd spay her - she's at high risk of developing pyometra. If you don't want her to lose her uterus you could find a vet who does an lap spay and just takes her ovaries, which will dramatically reduce the risk of pyometra to almost nothing, and also the rick of mammary cancers. Ovarian-sparing spays don't reduce the risk of mammary cancer at all. Why do want to keep her entire?

You are aware that entire bitches & bitches that retain their wombs are still open to developing Pyometra ? Regardless of how carefully you monitor her seasons. A friend of mine lost their bitch as she developed a closed pyometra with no symptoms until it was too late to save her despite having her ovaries removed by keyhole surgery 3 years earlier

There is only one 100% way of preventing Pyometra & that is a full spay

Many thanks for the reply. I am not the breeder, so I cannot comment on their behalf.
I know that dogs can died from various illnesses and cancers, mostly at an old age, overall the incidence of pyometra is extremely low. I know of (people) friends and relatives that developed "female cancers" (including breast and ovarian) after the age of 55. But surgery happened later on in life after the discovery of their cancers. They did not have their organs or bodily parts removed as children, or when they were young. They enjoyed their lives and after cancer (in their case later on in life - luckily managed to survive).
Here I am just looking for an alternative than cutting out their organs and not looking for the "simple" solution.
Though I appreciate your response.

Hi, many thanks for passing on the details of parksidevet and https://www.parsemus.org/projects/ovary-sparing-spay/ the facebook group looks good.
I was not sure if I the only one who wanted to avoid the cutting out of our pet's internal organs, but it looks like there are a lot of other people that feel similar.

Great, thank you for passing the link. I had come across this article which is kind-of makes sense to me www.doglistener.co.uk/neutering_definitive

Hi, thanks for the reply. I think that she is around 4 and very healthy. I am not looking to breed any puppies and hope that she can live along and happy live. It is just that the spaying seems a bit barbaric to me.
If (you or) someone had chosen to have been castrated or have had their healthy reproductive organs removed at an early age purely out of choice and would give me the advice that you have then I would be inclined to listen to it a bit more.

> They did not have their organs or bodily parts removed as children, or when they were young.

If this bitch is an ex-breeder then she's not 'young'; I assume about 6 years old? So middle-aged, just when many human women have hysterectomies, either elective or for more serious medical conditions.
The incidence of pyometra in older, entire bitches is remarkably high - certainly higher than the risk of mammary cancer.

Hi, thanks for your reply, I can see that you mean well. Though it is difficult for me to arrive to go with the current general trend of cutting everything out as prescribed by the vets. The prevalence of such cancers in dogs are similar to humans. I would not recommend the same treatment for a human, fine if cancer has been discovered or the chances outweigh the negative impacts of such a procedure.
To answer your question I would like to keep her entire so that she feels like an entire living being and as natural as possible, as happy as she can be with hormonal changes if tat is the case.
I would like to avoid treating a pet as a commodity or a thing. Hope it makes some kind of sense.

Thanks for the reply. I too know of animals that have died for different illnesses and people too. Mostly in their later years. To me it seems like I would be taking away an important part by going through the treatment. The incidence of cancer is not too high to have her fully spayed. I do appreciate your reply.

Again, thanks for taking time to reply. She is 4 and I know her well as she lived in the same town as me in Gateshead.
Some women have chosen hysterectomies is later life when risk of illnesses are very high. In this case the dog is still fairly young and the risks are not high. I am not looking for the easy way, just looking for what I consider to be the right way. As dogs have been used in medical research (for the benefit of humans) then we should treat them in a similar manner.

Please don’t underestimate how horrible pyometra is. One of mine had it, and I know of others who had very narrow escapes with a closed pyometra as they’re very difficult to detect until it’s (almost) too late. Just because the chances are small doesn’t mean you won’t encounter it. I don’t think either of my spayed girls give a damn that they aren’t entire and one is lucky to be alive at all.

Rozzie, thanks for the advice. I am not underestimating it. Pets, family and me will be encountering illnesses and other things as we get old. Chances are high that I will get cancer.
I have seen it first hand and it can be very difficult. Weighing in risks/health/happiness etc.
You sound like you are surrounded by happy dog companions, keep up the good work. Thank you!

I can see you've made up your mind to keep her entire (so not sure why you asked) but remember that although she's approaching middle age now she's not going to get any younger, and each season increases the risk of pyometra, and the recovery from surgery is much quicker in a healthy dog than in one who was sick with infection. I personally spay all my bitches, whether they've been bred from or not, by the age of 8. They all then stay in the happy, non-hormonal state all the time, because they can get quite grumpy both during their seasons and in the inevitable phantom pregnancy.

I agree with Rozzie that pyo is awful - I was extremely surprised at the difference in my previous Lab before and after her pyo spay. Despite major surgery and after-effects of anaesthetic she was clearly so much happier afterwards without all that pus building up inside her. She really didn’t care that she was no longer “complete”.

I don’t think it’s helpful to compare dogs to humans in cases like this, because dogs don’t have the capacity to make informed decisions about their own healthcare like humans can. As responsible owners we have to make those choices for them as best we can - personally I’d always choose to spay an older bitch. My lab got pyometra at six.

Interestingly a local radio DJ here made news a while back when she chose to have a double mastectomy in her 20s because so many of her female relatives had developed breast cancer and testing had revealed she was carrying genes that made her likely to suffer from it too. She made the decision to remove perfectly healthy body parts BEFORE she got the cancer she was probably going to develop later.

Pyometra is not a cancer it is an infection caused by hormonal changes. Oestrogen isn't just produced by the ovaries & this is why bitches who have had a " keyhole"ovary removal csn go on the develop pyometra. Oestrogen is also produced by the Adrenal gland( & some fat cells.)

Pyometra isn't a "rare" condition in dogs & cats unfortunately, because people are opting for the Laparoscopic ovariectomy more often they leave their bitches open to developing pyometra, because the body will still be producing Oestrogen & the womb is still present.

Spaying a bitch is very unnatural. Not allowing a bitch to breed every season is also completely unnatural, but obviously this is not convenient to us and we would see it as unethical to allow a bitch to breed every season. Every season we do not allow a bitch to breed, we are increasing her risk of life threatening pyometra.

My point is that having dogs as pets is not natural, and there are many things we do to our dogs which is not natural, but we do to try to protect them from, in this case a common, lifethreatening illness.

Great thanks, at an older age it may make more sense. She is 4, not going to breed anymore. But would like to look after her health.
The reason I asked was to find out about less intrusive procedures, i.e. key hole may be better for health.
Sounds like you look after your dogs well. Your reply was appreciated.

Thanks, it is good to speak to caring people such as you. Yes at older age for a dog it could make sense, specially if the procedure is less invasive.
Sounds like the girl in her 20s made the right decision, specially as it run in the family, I may have done the same in such case.
Good luck and thanks.

Thanks, there is a lot of info about dog illnesses and people's illnesses that are not always correct. Statistic throw out a lot of confusion.
Some reports say that people will live shorter and dogs too. I actually do not know if that is true. But thanks for the reply.

I like your thinking. In other countries there are problems with too many stray dogs, and in other countries they seem to have a better system, where only responsible dog breeders such as many people here are allowed to do business. Yes at the same time the dogs are not generally sprayed or castrated (such as in Sweeden).
Thanks

I can understand why this breeder wants the bitch to be spayed when moving to a new home, (though I can't see why she doesn't have it spayed by her own vet before offering it for placement). If you are not happy with the condition that the current owner wants to impose, might you be better having a dog from a different source?

Thanks Carole, I know that my views are slightly different to most people. I am just trying to understand and perhaps find an op that will not be as invasive.
You say that you understand why the breeder wants the bitch spayed when moving to a new home, why would that be??
Thanks

To ensure she wasn't bred from again as she's an"ex breeding bitch" surely

Exactly Ann. Even if the breeder has assessed the new home, and accepts that you are not interested in breeding from this girl, they have no other way of being certain that she won't be accidentally mated, or rehomed to someone who may breed from her in the future. Everyone thinks these things would never happen to them, but most breeders know that they can do.

Ok, thanks

Is good to know that you breeders are a caring lot.
Now have the dog with me, she is 4. But as she has had puppies before I will have her sterilised. I found a vet that can do the keyhole procedure in Newcastle, not too far from me.

Re the incidence of pyo, we NEVER had one with all our bitches over the years.  Having a breed that's low to the ground, I was more convinced that there was the risk of them squatting in the 'wrong place' when in season (wide open) and picking up an infection, than with the hormonal aspect.  As a result, none of our girls went anywhere off our property, when in season.   

On the other hand, we had one with mammary cancer - she was in her 13th year and hadn't been spayed until retired, at around aged 8.  Most of our bitches weren't spayed until after they'd had one, or occasionally two, litters and their showing career was over.  So they were maybe at risk of developing a female (bitch) cancer if the later they are spayed, the greater the risk of this happening.  But she was the only one with this kind of cancer.

I suppose my main reason for spaying had more to do with why have to confine them twice a year (well every 8 months with mine) for 3 weeks when an uncomplicated spay would stop all that.   And that's what we did, and never regretted it.

Thanks for the input. There are so many diseases that a dog can get. Sounds like your dogs are in constant contact with each other all the time, happy play times 24/7.
In my case, I am now with my new (4 yr old or so) dog and she will be constantly taken out for walks and running around with other dogs (a lot), but in the house it will be just her.
If she is on the lead when out for walk for 3 or so week then I think she will be OK with that. Though I will consider health/risk/benefits of medical treatments.
It has been good to get your and other people's opinions here. Looks like we are all trying to do our best.
I have seen (I guess similar to many other people) dogs becoming ill quickly after surgeries. Sometimes it seems that vets are very trigger (knife) happy. I recently saw a friends dog having surgery on the leg, when it was sometimes walking with a minor limp - after surgery the dog cannot run. Another dog putting on a lot of weight and actually becoming ill and not being ab le to walk 2 months after being spaded (the dog is 8). So there are many stories.
But yes, let's all keep trying our best and enjoy our companions.

The weight issue is the owners responsibility .its well known after neuter and can be avoided. That dog should not have been allowed to have weight increase especially to the point of Ill health at any time of her life .so cant blame that on neutering directly
My bitch would be the size of a house if I didn't monitor her carefully even before neuter
Fortunately  our dogs cant shop and feed themselves

I see your point and you may be correct in some ways, the feeding problem is true and it affect us humans too, it seems like we were built to eat and eat.
In the case of friend's dog it seemed as though health declined very, very quickly, who knows it could have been due to something completely different or the vet was no good, who knows. Apart from not being able to walk the poor dog cannot hold her bowels. The end result is quite sad.
The motivation/idea was to improve her health, but in her case unfortunately the opposite happened.
It is just an example and who knows things could (or perhaps should) have turned out differently. I have a lot of friends with dogs and my personal experience, many ops, especially spaying have not lead to a good outcome. That's all. I am sure most people have had different experiences. Thanks

I think the problem u have is that there is a risk each way and only u the owner  can decide which u see as a bigger risk after weighing up different types of spay .
Dont forget for optimum health it's not just neutering to consider but the best food, the use or not of chemical flea and worm treatments and vaccinations if any are being  considered .
Not easy and everyone will have their opinion and experiences.  I hope everything  works out for her and she remains healthy

I should have added that with a small pack of entire hounds, it was fairly vital to be able to reduce the angst to the boys when we had a bitch in season around.  We never had an unplanned litter, but we'd spend the three + weeks vaulting over barriers etc. when one (or more) of them was in season.   So from a very personal viewpoint, spaying when retired was def. the best option.   And our girls hated being shut away (upstairs) for 3 weeks!

Yes, health is the result of various things including food. Will take this on board. Thank you very much and good luck to you too.

Yes, makes sense, with a number of dogs in the same place. I guess some of us face different circumstances. Thanks.
All in all I am glad to have received lots of different advice from this group.

>I recently saw a friends dog having surgery on the leg, when it was sometimes walking with a minor limp - after surgery the dog cannot run.

What was the operation for?

>Another dog putting on a lot of weight and actually becoming ill and not being ab le to walk 2 months after being spaded (the dog is 8).

It's well-documented that removal of the gonads slows the metabolism, meaning the animal (and human - think middle-aged spread after the menopause!) makes better use of their food and lays down the surplus as fat. So as soon as the surgical wounds have healed the food needs to be cut by at least a quarter of the previous maintenance ration - by more if the animal was overweight to start with! To gain so much weight that she couldn't walk within 2 months of being spayed she must have been morbidly obese to start with, and massively overfed afterwards. That's down to the owner, not the surgery.

Hi, the dog is a Frech bulldog and she was a little overweight to start with. She is middle aged and had a small non-cancerous lump near her tummy. The vet suggested for an extra £300 to also have the dog spayed. The the spay scar was large (as normal). Soon after one of the legs was not moving properly and within 2 months not able to walk. Then not able to hold her bowels and often defecates when she sleeps. She did gain more weight after the op.

>Soon after one of the legs was not moving properly and within 2 months not able to walk. Then not able to hold her bowels and often defecates when she sleeps.

That sounds like nerve damage to her spine which will be unrelated to the spay as such; perhaps her back was strained when she was under anaesthetic and was being moved, but that could have happened during a dental, or any other time when she was under anaesthetic. I assume she's since had x-rays or MRI to find out the cause?

Sounds like you know a lot. As you say, could be a nerve on her spine, but no one knows for sure. They have had her checked and scanned but cannot find the issue.
She has also had physio, but there has been no improvement, now she also cannot hold her pee. During the hot summer days she did enjoy going into a paddling pool, but that was it.
It would be great if she recovered, but I think that she is likely to detiriorate.

It's common for French Bulldogs to suffer from hemivertebrae which could quite possibly be the cause. The certain thing is that it's not due to a routine spay, unless something went seriously wrong during the operation, which would be a human error and not due to the operation per se.

Quote. The spay scar was large (as normal).

Not so. I have a medium sized bitch who had had three litters before I adopted her. She was spayed by her breeder's vet before changing homes, and still had her stitches in situ when I arranged to take her. Her spay closure was just 3 cms. of the neatest blue stitches that I have ever seen.

Thanks. If and when I find out more then I will post an update.

Sounds like the vet did a good job. Good result for your dog and you.

Recently my local surgery has used dissolving stitches & even in a quite young large breed with the onset of a pyometra the incision was only 3 inches, after a week or so the wound was completely closed & most of the stitches were gone & 10 days the wound on the outside was completely clear of stitches.

Can't see a small breed having a bigger incision even if there was a full pyometra being removed. I very much doubt the bitch's later problem were linked to the spay, Frenchies has huge problems with spine related problems especially as they enter middle age some of them linked to the screw tail plus intervertebral disc problems, which can cause hindquarter paresis from dragging of the rear paws to the hindquarters were totally paralysed.

indexrandom, you might want to join this Facebook group as it sounds like you would find a lot of support and help there: www.facebook.com/groups/AgainstRoutineNeutering/

There is a lot of research which counters things various people have said here, and is available in the Files of that group.  You might want to read the research rather than just consult random people... ;)

I think it is completely understandable not to want to spay a bitch at the age of 4yo.  I wouldn't want to either.  I would want her to remain intact until at least 8yo to benefit from her hormones for as long as possible, before the risk of pyo is too great. 

Secondly, removing the ovaries and leaving the uterus in a lap spay does NOT result in an increased risk of pyo.  Without the ovaries present, the uterus shrivels up and becomes inactive.  Lap spays with ovaries only removed have been done for a decade or two on the continent now without any increased risk of pyo being seen.

Please do read the research and not just ask random people.... :)

If you do your research you will also find that estrogen is not just produced in by the ovaries(Many vets are unaware thst testosterone & estrogen have more than one source)& as in the case I mentioned the womb does not"shrivel"up as it still has blood vessels & nerves attached. Have you scientific evidence of this "shrivelling" ?