Thread continued from HERE.

My bitch had a section on Saturday morning.She was day 59 and had one puppy out before section.  Took to them after, all feeding well....thought we were ok.

This morning one bitch felt cooler than rest. She is very small so I thought it might be nature doing it’s thing. I lowered heat lamp and tried to get her to latch but she was too weak. Syringed about 1 ml of whelpi into her but she didn’t pick up.

I sat by the box for the next hour watching the others....noticed a dog wasn’t paddling while feeding. He was quite weak.

I then picked up a bitch puppy who didn’t look right and she had a seizure in my hand.

Realising I had a big problem I took them straight to vets. Low blood sugars on the three weak pups...rest ok.

They gave glucose and fluids and vet told me my bitch didn’t have enough milk. Ok , but I’m not over comfortable with her forward going advice and need some help.....

Vet said my bitch doesn’t have enough milk.....she said it should be squirting across the room when you squeeze....my bitch is on day 2, this is my 14 th litter and never have I seen much milk certainly not squirting on day 2.

She said as she is feeding such a large litter she won’t have enough milk and also as a first time Mum she doesn’t know what to do. This is where I lost all confidence in this vet....my bitch had 8 pups, not a huge litter for a Labrador.

I was advised to bottle feed all pups. All pups now , except the weak very small bitch are feeding vigorously and falling off milk drunk afterwards . If I squeeze my girls nipples I get beads  of milk.

I don’t feel it is the right advice to bottle feed whole litter.....surely this will make he milk dry up and I want to encourage it in....but then again I don’t want to risk puppies getting weak if she really doesn’t have enough.

Thoughts please....I trust your advice on this far more than the vets.

You are completely correct in all your hunches!!!  Please get a different vet!

>Vet said my bitch doesn’t have enough milk.....she said it should be squirting across the room when you squeeze

I've never been able to squirt anything from my bitch's nipples - it is notoriously difficult to 'milk' dogs(!) which is why when we supplement, we use milk replacers rather than mum's milk.  You can get some out and if it's for colostrum it's worth doing, but you're not going to see it squirting across the room...

Bitches can take some days for milk to come in fully and that's fine and isn't a problem as long as pups don't lose too much weight.  Day 2, her milk most definitely won't be flowing and sometimes a c-section can slow things down further.

>She said as she is feeding such a large litter she won’t have enough milk

8 pups is not a large litter for your breed and for a large breed.  It's about average.

>I was advised to bottle feed all pups.

Please don't do this.  As you say:  Milk works by supply and demand.  If you eliminate demand by bottle feeding them all, you will be stuck doing this forevermore.

So - what to do?

Supplement the bitch with fenugreek - you can get this from most health food stores and it improves milk supply.  Give 2 capsules every 4 hours, until her breath smells like maple syrup.  Oatmeal or porridge oats (made with water not milk) and milk thistle are also galactagogues (increase milk supply). 

If you are worried about low blood sugar, take some glucose syrup on your finger and rub it on the inside of puppies' cheeks. 

>This morning one bitch felt cooler than rest.

Do ensure that puppies are WARM - they cannot eat, process food or digest anything if they get too cold.  They cannot manage their own body temperatures.  Puppies in  their first week of life should be 96-97F.  If a pup is cold, the very first thing you should do is warm the pup back up to body temperature BEFORE trying to feed.  You can make a pup very ill if you feed them when they are not warm.  You should have a warming pad on all the time so pups can choose to move onto it or away.

If pups are fading in the first 2 weeks of life, you really need to tube feed them to save them.  Nursing - whether from mum or from a bottle or syringe - takes energy.  They expend far more energy doing this, than they put on - and continue to fade.  Tube feeding deposits food directly to their bellies.  Watch videos on YouTube about how to tube feed - there are some great ones. 

Keep pups warm.  Weigh them twice a day.  If they lose weight from 48 hours after birth onwards, supplement - preferably by tube feeding.  Keep them on the bitch.  Put weak pups on the larger and more productive nipples and give them time there, removing the other pups if necessary to a warming box.

Nothing to add to the good advice above.

Keep plugging the pups that are weak on whenever you pass the box, even if you need to wake them.  Make sure they stay warm, not so much overhead but underneath and ensure the whelping box is cave like so reducing any draughts, and increasing humidity.

Thankyou both for the replies.....I will reply in full later....

How do I tube feed? I am struggling to get weaker pups to take from syringe, vet said do not push syringe if pups aren’t sucking it....make them suck your finger first or they will aspirate....they have no inetr st in my finger.....if I cannot push the syringe how do I get the milk into them....my head is spinning

Both weak pups will latch and paddle after some sugar water.......but I don’t know if they are getting any milk????

https://youtu.be/Z2sdSSmbDCw

https://youtu.be/bIKWr7yRU2g

https://youtu.be/ZtFroh_bO-8

You'll need an 8 French tube and a syringe:  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sterile-Feeding-Syringes-Whelping-Animals/dp/B019LWQR18/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=8%2Bfrench%2Btube%2Bfeeding&qid=1558366747&s=gateway&sr=8-8&th=1

Doesn’t sound like good advice from the vet.  If you don’t have any Puppy Stim, order some now, you will get it next day delivery.  It is great for giving weaker puppies a boost before latching them on to feed.

Another vet who's never bred a litter, I bet! Bitches who hve masses of milk at this early stage are almost certainly going to develop mastitis or even eclampsia; In the first few days there is onl a small amount of colostrum, and as the pups suckle (almost continuously) the true milk starts to come in. It's vital to keep them very warm - a cover over the whelping box can be very good at keeping the warmth in -because they can't maintain their own body heat, and if they get cold they can't digest milk, and need to be warmed up before even attempting to get them to feed.
Any supplementary feeding will delay the production of the bitch's milk, so avoid going down that road if at all possible.
You seem to trusting your instincts and doubting the vet - and I totally agree with your instincts as well!

> .she said it should be squirting across the room when you squeeze...

Clearly a vet who has only had experience WITH COWS!!    To expect a bitch to have that amount of milk, 2 days after a 'Section is just nonsense.

Not much I can add to what's already been added except to totally agree with trying to keep the puppies nursing or the milk won't come down.  If we had smaller puppies, we'd latch them onto the middle teats as the big back teats were usually more than they could cope with.   And keep the temperature at the bottom of the box around 75 - 80F.   Once morbidly chilled, puppies won't nurse.

Supplement the litter if you feel it's necessary, but I'd suggest for what is a normal sized litter for a Lab, that shouldn't be necessary at this early stage.

Sending good thoughts.

Thankyou so very much for every reply. Each one has helped me a lot. My first section in 14 litters and needed my hand holding .

Ok, so the three that were struggling.....two are doing well....supplementing them and latching them...they nurse her quite vigourosly and paddle strongly. The tiny one not so much but she is seriously small and u suspect something else going on, we won’t give up on her all the time she will take milk.

Today I noticed milk let down....

The rest of the litter feed strongly, they fall off milk drunk, they are quiet and content and look like all my previous healthy pups but they do look a bit thinner than I’m used to seeing.... if they are acting ok is it ok not to supplement them? Is it to be expected for after c section pups to look a bit thinner until milk picks up? Just nervous of the going downhill......

You’ve all been great, Thankyou x

We usually expect to see pups double their birthweight by 1 week old, in our 2 sectioned litters it was nearer 9 days. You will know what a content pup acts like, go with your instincts.  I can’t recommend Puppy Stim enough for weak pups. I’m sure it’s what saved a couple of my pups in my recent litter.

Thankyou. I could kick myself as I’ve always had Nutridrops or similar......two year old...house move .....it didn’t happen.

Can I buy it anywhere today? I’ve ordered some for tomorrow delivery.

> Today I noticed milk let down....

Yeah!!   As said, with my 'Sections, provided it was possible to latch them on as soon as they, and mum came home, the milk they need as newborns, should be there.  With a disasterous litter we had (previously recorded so I won't get into that again), when the Locum called that evening to see how things were, she was AMAZED to see we had the surviving 4  in the whelping box with mum all quietly nursing.  I'm not sure what she expected to see, but clearly not that!  And yes, there wasn't much significant weight gain over the first 24 hours.  But always the litter was quiet other than getting frustrated when they drained a teat, hustling to find another one.

For now, I'd not consider supplementing.  With our bigger litters (9), I'd gently roll mum and make sure that they could latch onto the 'bottom row' and then back to get those not on a teat, on one of the upper level ()

Have you yet nipped the pointy ends off their nails - you do need to, to avoid them catching on her stitches.

I can't remember my Sectioned puppies looking especially thin to be honest.

Relax

I have just weighed a couple of them....I haven’t weighed them all just a few as she gets stressed if I take them away too often.

One is about 20 g less than yesterday . One is the same . They are all sucking and look like they are feeding strongly. What do I do?

The weak bitch I had dies today...her chest was crackly....I’m worried we aspirated her and if I supplement the others we will do the same. They are feeding strongly and falling off looking satisfied but not gaining since yesterday.

I really don’t feel confident tubing them....and if they are sucking strongly aren’t they past that......but syringe feeding now terrifies me. Her milk is letting down I can see it happening.....I just don’t know why they are not gaining.

Sorry for the panic post......I’m a bit emotional after the loss today

Are they quiet?  They may well be noisy when actually feeding, as one teat drains and they 'frantically' move on to finding one that has milk.   But otherwise your best indication of all being well is to have a basically quiet litter.   If they are mewling, then yes, there is a problem.

I never got into tube-feeding and it's really only needed if they aren't getting enough milk - because it's faster with a big litter, than to bottle feed.

So sorry you lost one (which won't help your confidence!) but perhaps there was something wrong with her.  Bless.   If you've done that number of litters before, please don't let the fact she needed a C.Section, influence how you approach this litter.   Her recovery needs watching however.  With each day that passes, the situation should improve as you get nearer to being able to wean them!!

Thankyou, there is no or little weight gain, apart from that they are acting fine.

I am a bit concerned about her....she is restless and during the night was carrying pups around , digging and now doesn’t want to stay with pups. She will feed them but won’t stay. She had oxytocin shot two days ago......I’ve read this makes them contract and get a bit frantic....is this true or should I worrry about eclampsia?

>I have just weighed a couple of them....I haven’t weighed them all just a few as she gets stressed if I take them away too often.

So firstly you absolutely HAVE to weigh the pups preferably twice a day this first week.  No ifs or buts or she gets stressed - it is the only way to monitor how they are doing.  Looking at them and thinking they are a bit thin is bonkers - you need to be weighing them. 

If she doesn't want you to take them away (and a lot of bitches don't), you need to get in the whelping box with her with your scales.  Put the scales on the floor of the box, on a hardback book or something firm, and weigh each pup there right in front of her eyes. 

>She had oxytocin shot two days ago

Hmmm, I replied on the other thread about this - but I missed that it was 2 days ago.  I would not expect an oxy shot 2 days ago to be causing this now - the effect is quite short-lived (hours).  This does sound more like calcium is needed to me.  What is her weight?

Ok, no they were weighed this morning again , no weight gain.....we have not been supplement feeding every two hours as they have been feeding from her. They are taking whelp well but still not gaining. She has milk...I’ve seen let down. She has been carrying pups around the box and digging a lot since one died yesterday which is why I didn’t want to stress her by weighing them twice a day.

I don’t know what her weight is now....she was 22 kg before pregnancy. She is quite agitated at times and I don’t have any way to weigh her.

Should I supplement all pups if they haven’t gained even though they are feeding ok?

I cannot get the stronger pups to take the syringe. They turn their heads. They feed strongly and aggressively from the bitch....but not gaining weight. I can’t just feed them without them sucking so I cannot supplement them.

>they were weighed this morning again , no weight gain

As long as they have not LOST weight, I wouldn't worry yet.  It is still, what, day 3???  I think you're worrying a bit too much.  They can lose weight in the first 48 hours and that's still perfectly fine.  Yours may have done just that and now have caught back up to birth weight again.  They are feeding vigorously.  There is no need to supplement.

I would be very worried about causing aspiration pneumonia if you are trying to feed with a syringe - it is extremely dangerous to do that.  The only way to feed neonatal puppies is tube feeding or perhaps with a bottle if they will suckle from it, but they usually won't.  If you go squirting any liquid into their mouths which they are not ready for, you risk killing them (frankly), so if you're not able to tube feed and they are not co-operating with a bottle, then you have no choice.  But you have no need to anyway, as I said above.

I would personally be much more worried about her restless behaviour and calcium levels.  Her weight before pregnancy is what you need to know, not her current weight. 

At 22kg, she needs either 11010mg/day of calcium carbonate (which should be given with food) or 22020mg/day of calcium citrate (does not need to be given with food). 

This equates to 15x Tums Extra Strength 750 tablets per day (give with food).  OR 13x egg shells, ground and dried.  (OR - 26 cups of vanilla ice-cream - which is how you can see that food products/dairy is not going to provide enough calcium.)  My recommendation would be the Tums, as you are going to find those the easiest to get hold of.

This is very helpful, Thankyou.

Is there a bottle you recommend that is safe? I feel I should get one in anyway

A bottle of calcium?  The problem is that there is a difference between elemental calcium and (say) calcium carbonate or calcium citrate.  To get dosing right, you need to know how much *elemental* calcium is in a product.  There are lots of different products out there.  The best would be to look at bulk supplements online for calcium citrate or calcium carbonate powder.  A bottle (liquid) isn't likely to provide enough.  Don't look at products for dogs, look at human health products for bulk ordering of calcium.  I will send you a PM.

Oh no sorry I wasn’t very clear.. I meant for bottle feeding as a last resort. I will get the tums.

I will also learn about tube feeding for future problems in litters

You are probably best getting a bottle for premature babies, whatever the smallest one they have is.  You can also buy bottles with milk replacer and online pet pharmacies but will need to wait for those to arrive...

I weigh pups as soon as born when still wet.  average weight for pups in my breed is 10 - 12oz, but I have had them range from 6 - 20oz with 9 -14oz most common.

I find with a litter of larger pups or larger numbers that they will have lost up to an ounce when weighed next day.

On day three they will have regained their weight and from day 4 will be gaining again.  The odd smaller weaker pup may fail to gain and I keep popping them on for extra sessions.

I always weigh with Mum out for a pee, or right by the whelping box so that it is quick.

> Is there a bottle you recommend that is safe? I feel I should get one in anyway

If I have felt the need to supplement then I have used one of the dinky baby feeding bottles (50ml) often used for giving babies water, and a newborn silicone teat.  Strangely enough I found Wilko the best place for both, could not find the newborn teats or the bottles in any local chemist including boots.

Just to ask why, if she had a C.Section, she needed oxytocin?   She should have been 'cleaned out' when the 'Section was done.   None of my Sectioned bitches has ever had that.   Again if the litter is basically quiet other than while actually nursing, they should be fine, regardless of their weight.

Her restlessness might just be because you are stressing??

MamaBas, I think the oxy was given before the c-section - to try to avoid the need for it.

Update.......we lost the tiny bitch. However the rest are  looking so much stronger. Good weight gain today although the weak dog pup not gaining as quickly as the others but we are supplementing him and he’s nursing strongly as well.

Thankyou to everyone for all your advice and support x

> I think the oxy was given before the c-section - to try to avoid the need for it.

OK   I didn't read it like that - sorry.   And of course, this was always done with mine, for that reason.

> the weak dog pup not gaining as quickly as the others

Try to put him on the most productive nipple, if he's able to nurse - keep taking off another pup and putting him where the milk is... assuming he can get that nipple in his mouth and nurse from it.

If we had a smaller (not necessarily weaker) puppy, we'd put it on one of the middle teats as quite often with my breed, the back teats were just too big for a smaller puppy to manage.  And we'd always give the smaller ones first go at the teats so they didn't get pushed off - but if you've done litters before, OP, you'll know that!!

Tums are not available in any pharmacy these days, you may need to order online.
Vanilla icecream is a lot easier to feed i found plus mixing that in with eggs like scrambled eggs as well