Hi all

So today i had a visit from my mother in law. And i was telling her the dilema of my partners friends ( who have now decided on the Golden) and she was telling me shes kind of in the same boat but shes always knew which two breeds she would be looking at next but just cant pick , she has owned loads of Pastoral breeds in the past twenty years from corgis to german shepherds to border collies. Her last dog was a shetland sheepdog she lost 6months ago, she would happily go for another but a two years ago she was diagnosed with a condition called hypercusis , which basically means certain noises case physical pain and dog barking can be painful , she struggled owning her sheltie in those two last years , now when a dog barks it doesn't cause pain straight away its only if she is subjected to barking on a regular basis like her shetland never stopped he was a yappy dog. To a certain point training is going to help but some dogs are more prone to barking than others also she finds dogs with high pitch barks affect her more were dogs with lower base barks dont affect her as quickly.

She then told me she is between two breeds ( she said dont ask why she has done a tone of research on both and met loads of each) the two breeds are Rough collie and the Old English Sheepdog. Now when she said collie my eyebrow raised as i though they are vocal and high pitched but she said the ones she has met have not been overally vocal and the breeders and breed club have said they are not overlly vocal. The old english sheepdog she has also been told is not overally. Vocal and thet seem to have a lower bark.

I wanted to ask on her behalf if its true that rough collies and old english sheepdogs are not that vocal? I really feel shes been lied to about the collie but maybe im wrong.

And is it true both are easy to train?

I have just realised not all my post is there so I'll just write below what has disappeared from my post. ( im having issues with my phone)

I asked her why she doesn't go for another German shepherd as they have a deep bark and are not that vocal compared to a shetland sheepdog but she said that even though they have a deep bark they still are too vocal and until she owned a shetland sheepdog the german shepherd was the noisest dog she had ever owned, now beaten by the shetland sheepdog.

And she said there too active for her now being a seniour but that itself got me thinking as both breeds shes picked are very active.

I just feel that neither suit as there both vocal and both very active and i think she needs to maybe look away from pastoral breeds.

Off at a complete tangent but Would.she consider a retired greyhound ? I dont believe they are very barky and certainly happy to have a couple of.short walks.preferrably when the can have a short run in a safe area and then back.to being couch potatoes . So many out there needing homes too

Furriefriends my thinking exactly , i feel sighthounds in general would suit as there less vocal and from what i found put at crufts sighthounds tend to be the most quite dogs ( not all as apparently whippets are vocal as are afghan hounds). Greyhounds are lovley natured too, but do you think that most sighthounds might be better with them being quite as i was thinking Borzoi as well as greyhounds?

I don't have direct experience of sighthounds tbh so best to leave that answer to others
. I have spoken to many rescues and some owners about Grey's and they all.say how easy they are too live with and manage .i dont know if Grey's are different from other sight hounds though.

My partner has spoken with her as she will listern to him more with him being her son. And after careful thought she has agreed a more laid back dog is better suited i think it was just hard for her to accept that she cant have a pastoral breed anymore as she just is not able to handle such an active dog anymore.

She likes Greyhounds but she prefers afghans out of all sighthounds. I dont know much either furriefriends about sighthounds im hoping others might know but im not sure I'll get many replies with the heading being rough collie vs old english sheepdog but i didnt want to make a new post.

Ask admin if they can change it or just go for.it with a new post about sighthounds

Thanks I'll contact admin first as i think it would save having to explain all over again in another post.

If you look at the orgins of the first two breeds the OES was a driving dog used to take stock from farm to market. They did not need to bark to work the stock & shouldn't really be a noisy dog. They have sadly been bred with way too much coat for the show ring & most of their problems are caused by the high level of work needed even to keep a shortish clipped coat in good condition. The Rough Collie was a highland breed & used to work sheep & also a huntaway type worker, which bark the sheep down from high areas, they can be very barky even now. Most modern Rough Collies have excessive coats & they too can be high maintenance. The Smooth Collie is basically the same breed, with a close coat, they can be noisy too, but seem to be far more tractable than the coated type

(The Shetland Sheepdogs used to work in a similar way to Rough & Smooth Collies, but to keep the sheep from swimming into the sea rather than down from high areas, hence they too can be quite noisy)

Sight hounds may not be as barky as other breeds, but they do have the tendency for howling.

It soneone doesn't want a noisy dog, the secret is to train it not to bark. I don't like dogs that bark incessantly, so I spend a lot of time with puppies teaching them to have a bark off switch.

Maybe a visit to a dog show( which aren't that noisy if outside) to talk to owners & meet their dogs.

There are other pastoral breeds which aren't very barky

Thanks Tommee very interesting post.

Vocality is a big part of why she has said no but its also because even though she found it hard to be honest she knows with getting older she cant handle such an active dog anymore and sighthounds ( or at least greyhounds and Borzois) are couch potatos.

Don't forget they may be calm indoors buy she will have to be able to manage outside when they maybe a lot more tricky especially if they see anything small . Some I gather are not easy to train and quite independent. very different to something like a gsd

Afghans are not the breed for your friend. Retired greyhound would be better suited out of the 2.

Thanks Lexy , Afghans are more energetic than most sighthounds i think?

@Tommee , out of interest for myself which pastoral breeds are not overally vocal?

In an above post you said " There are other pastoral breeds which aren't very barky"

The bigger breeds like Pyrenean  Mountain Dogs, Hovawart, Estrela Mountain Dog etc. Because of their natural instincts they tend to bark only when there is a threat. The draw back however is their size, most are giant breeds, so probably not suitable in this situation

until she owned a shetland sheepdog the german shepherd was the noisest dog she had ever owned,

which pastoral breeds are not overally vocal?

My GSD only barks when someone knocks the door or the post comes, He doesn't bark when in the garden - despite the 3 gardens adjoining ours having a total of 4 small yappys and one also having 3-4 small shouty kids, and he doesn't bark when out on walks or out in the car.
He can and does bark when told to 'talk' but stops when told enough

Thanks Tommee , yes not suited for her but i thought I'd ask for us in the future as not only has his mom got this condition but so does his dad and sister and two aunts have it so its likely he might get it in the future which might mean no more GSD's if he ever got it.

Pyrenean mountain dogs can i just ask am i right in thinking they were livestock guardians? Which i think GSD were?

My gsd weren't barky either tatty was

The one thing she will need to consider with a sighthound is their poor recall, yes it can be achieved but if a rescue especially more so an ex racer they need to be kept on lead.

Unless she can get access to secure fields

They are flock guardians that bond not with the shepherds/farmers but with their flock/herd. German Shepherds are not flock guardians, they take the place of the human shepherd when left in charge of the flock/herd. One of their jobs is to keep the animals in a certain part of their field & patrol the perimeter of the field, hence them having to have good level of endurance so the stock dont' feed whilst on the trip forexample

Oops above should read

"so the stock don't feed outside the the designated area"

> ex racer they need to be kept on lead.

Not sure where you have gotten this information from but they are rehabilitated & trained before being put in pet homes & should not need to be kept on a lead...hounds need free running(not much a few times a week)!

> but they are rehabilitated & trained before being put in pet homes & should not need to be kept on a lead

If only achieving good reliable recall was so simple as you make it sound! Rehabilitation and training in preparation for pet homes is not a guarantee of achieving a solid recall, more often than not this depends on an individual dog and even with continued training past that initial "prep for pet home" stage many dogs can never be 100% trusted with their recall, which means they have to be kept on lead unless they are in a safe and ideally secure area such as fenced field or similar.

Many ex-racers cannot be safely let off lead, especially the successful ones!  They have been bred and trained to chase furry things at top speed, without much conscious thought.

> I asked her why she doesn't go for another German shepherd as they have a deep bark and are not that vocal compared to a shetland sheepdog

I apologise, but this did make me chuckle.  Many german shepherds are just as vocal as a sheltie and just as high pitched!  Yesterday I drove an enormous one and his owner to their last chiropractic appointment, and he squealed every time we reach lights/junctions/roundabouts, and we were treated to a rather painful rendition of Chewbacca at soprano volume when we reached our destination!  It's one of the things I really don't like about them.  Some are quiet, but many are not, and they have a real high edge to their bark a lot of the time.

Sounds like I was really lucky then with my gsds or I just tunes out   lol
.both my fcr are and were very quiet. Brooke wuffs a little when excited and at foxes.its a deep single bark repeated with big gaps.
Unfortunately young fcr can be quite full on so would only tick the noise box I suspect
Now my pom X chi made up.for everyone. She was a constant job in process very noisy

I think im lucky too furriefriends mine is not overaly vocal but i know my mother in law said all of hers were very vocal and some were high pitched.

I would like to say thank you to everyone who is helping and taking the time to advise.

I am meeting her today for a coffee and lunch so ill let you know what she says i know she was doing research last night on greyhounds and i can tell her what was said here.

She might also like to think about size of dog .would.she consider smaller breeds too ?
I only say that because it widens her search and also some of.us and I am one feel that as I get older I will.have a small.breed .easier to manage and thinking how long a dog lives it will.make day to.day life easier is she needs to slow down.of course that all depends on how old she is now and what kind of life style.she has

Thanks furriefriends ill make a note of size ect. Im goung out in around 5mins to meet her so I'll let you know when i get back.

> Sight hounds may not be as barky as other breeds, but they do have the tendency for howling.

I've owned 15 borzois,a whippet, a few lurchers and 4 silken windhounds. I personally know of hundreds more sighthounds as most of my friends are dog friends and they don't howl Are you thinking basenji's or scenthounds.. or huskies

I would recommend a retired greyhound, they're such easy dogs. I would not recommend a borzoi. They are my first love but I'll never have another one. If you have your own property to exercise it on then fair enough but walking in public parks they can occasionally view other dogs are prey items!

Of course Silken Windhounds are perfect, has she looked at them?

Will reply more later, just dashing out.

I wondered about a Polish Lowland Sheepdog. Having said that I know nothing about them beyond what I see at Dog Club and they always seem very pleasant and not too barky.

Hi all

I have found out a lot and have had an in depth conversation with her. She first started by saying that after reading further the Greyhound is not the dog for her she wanted to thank furriefriends for suggesting it but there not for her. She said she prefers more easier to train dogs not necessarily like a GSD but not to the point were they are independent like sighthounds and she owns other animals ( i did not know this as i have never been to her house , although she said its a farm rather than a house)she has  rabbits , ducks, chickens , jersey cows, horses and 4 cats. So when she read they like to chase small furries it was a big no. So sighthounds are off.

She has said pastoral breeds are off too due to most being to vocal or too active. The not as vocal ones that tommee said about she said Hovawarts are too active for her and Estella mountain dogs seem to rare snd independent as do pyrenean mountain dogs they seem too independent for her.

I then asked wouldn't they be too big for you as there very strong and she said no. She said "sara i might be getting older but im not weak" she said her nearest neighbour has a saint bernard and he is unable to Exersice him now ( her neighbour was in a car crash a year ago which left him in a wheelchair and unable to Exersice him) anyway she said i walk him and at first he had leash problems with pulling but she said my years off experience means he does not pull anymore so she said a Giant breed is fine.

She has also already owned a polish lowland sheepdog and she was very vocal. She is also more of a large dog person.

Anyway after she explained all that i suggested a newfoundland as if she ok with large dogs , ok with drool then newfies might suit as they are fairly easy to train and will be happy with the amount of Exersice she can do. She said she just doesn't feel she could do 2hrs or more of physical exercise a day anymore and mainly when she gets older ( shes in her middle 60's) under 2hrs she can do.

Not sure what other breeds are fairly easy to train , needs under 2hrs of Exersice , is great with other animals, people and a good family dog ect.

2 hours of exercise for a Newfoundland as in walking I presume ? Well if she got a puppy the dog would need to be well over 18 months before even considering that amount of exercise & TBH I think it would be too much at any age, Newfoundlands are essentially water dogs & have been so since they were first developed as a fisherman's/water rescue dog in Newfoundland. I don't know who told her they need 2 hours physical exercise(as in walking)daily, but not even the active water rescue dogs get that much non water exercise.

Leonbergers are another giant breed originally developed from St Bernards & Pyrenean Mountain dogs, they do bark, but have a deeper bark. Hovawarts, Pyrenean MD & Estrela MD are not common, but as for high energy, I think she may have been researching some inaccurate websites, that equal size to energy levels & it really isnt true. Flock guardian type dogs when working are physically inactive most of the time, mentally alert to sounds yes, but nowhere the activity levels of the shepherding/sheep working breeds. They are very tractable rather than independant.

I'm getting a flock guardian puppy in the next few weeks & will be allowing him to bond with my new ewe lambs. He's an Akbaş Çoban Köpeği or Akbash. I should really have had him earlier, but because of the new dog breeding rules he has to be 8 weeks old. Unlike what is generally written about Flock guardians do not patrol their charges 24/7 needing unlimited energy. Their role is to blend in with their charges & if danger threatens will drive it off with a show of "aggression". However they do need training to do this & many life happy lives bonding with allsorts of animals small & not so small, including humans & living fulfilled lives as family pets.

Your mother in law, will find it hard to chose a breed that doesn't bark & doesn't need much exercise of any kind

Thanks Tommee. No she said she cant do 2hrs or more anymore and has read newfies need around 1hr which she can give. And barking is not the issue as such its those who bark all the time or at everything.

Thats why i though newifes would suit as they need around an hour of Exersice a day and are not that vocal and there bark is deeper so easier on the ear.

The Pyrenean Mountain dog she was really interested in but everything she read said they are very difficult to train and are very independent and since she wants a fairly easy to train dog she thought they would not suit.

Leonbergers i found out at crufts are faily easy to train but at crufts they said they need 2hrs of exercise a day.

Now u have a wider picture totally understand why Grey's wouldn't be suitable.
Don't forget it's not always about physical exercise it's mental stimulation .the balance of.the two will make for happy dog whatever breed .thinking that way could mean those breeds may be suitable

Thanks furriefriends , as im reading my posts im realizing im missing bits out. Mental stimulation is not an issue with her living on a farm she has several ways of keeping them occupied.

She also told me thats shes not an idiot either and understands fully how strong giants can be and so will be training right from the start on leash training among other things.

Bouvier des Flandres? Reserved, not a noisy breed, and very trainable. They do need a fair bit of coat care though.

CaroleC do Bouvier des Flandres need a lot of pysical Exersice though? ( mental exercise is not an issue for her) but she can only provide upto 1hr and 45mins of Exersice a day or under 2hrs.

Would.there strong herding instincts be an issue ? Just reading about them on breeders section

Im wondering this too furriefriends i just done a quick search on them and some websites say they have high herding instincts which may mean they could schase other animals but im also reading they need over 2hrs of pysical Exersice a day too which wont be of any use to her.

Wonder what other think about these figures for physical exercise if a dog is also given things to do?
It all seems a bit prescribed .

Furriefriends At crufts we were asked how much Exersice could you do and me and my partner can do as much Exersice as the dog needs but sometimes you get told that a certain breed needs 2hrs for example so thats why she said under two hours incase anyone asked.

Just thinking of mine .yes they can easily do 2 hours as is stated for the breeds but are quite happy with less and that would vary with age

Most dogs will take as much exercise as you give them, but in my opinion, it doesn't need to be high energy, or pounding the pavements. If your friend lives on a farm, the dog will have the opportunity of plenty of free running, so, once mature, two half hour sessions of directed exercise should be enough. Whatever the breed, dogs will do what they are allowed to do, and training is the way that you mould them into being the dog you want to share your life with. Breed characteristics may provide a blueprint, but individuals are capable of a great deal of variation.

I think the amounts given are common ideas, but often not what the dogs actually need.  Mental stimulation is as important.  I have high energy dogs here (Abe will run fast pretty much the entire time he is off lead) but they are fine with one 45 minute walk in the morning, and activity at home in the afternoon.

Heck, my older border collie doesn't go out at all - she gets things to do at home (searches, treat balls etc) and she's happy.  I wouldn't advocate getting an energetic breed with the intention of that lifestyle but she's a good example of how the traditional ideas about breeds don't always match the reality.

Hi all

My partner just had a call from his mom wanting to update us all she said after doing further research she has narrowed it down to two breeds the pyrenean mountain dog and the Leonberger.

After she met me yesterday she went to see a friend who is a newfoundland breeder but also who has owned and shown the breed for 25yrs and after there vist she decided the newfie is not for her she said even though she doesn't mind drool too much she could not handle that amount of drool.

And the pyrenean mountain dog has gone on the list as the newf owner told her that pyrenean mountain dogs are not that difficult to train.

So shes going to do her own research now and meet both breed in the home and out to help her decide.

If anyone has any experience of either breed they can share much appreciated.

I would say in general the sighthounds as a group seem the least barky.

In my experience most toys, terriers, herding breeds, and many guarding breeds bark more, and yes my beloved Spitz types that appear in all groups except Gundog and Terrier.

My own hunting Spitz breed are required to bark to let the hunter know where they are, but should trail the Moose silently.

So my lot are genetically inclined to be vocal (left to their own devises would be noisy) but trained not to be.  From puppyhood any barking outside and they are sent indoors (so I have limited their outdoor area to easily accomplish this).

When I am not home they are kept away from outside visual stimulus, and I have the Radio on in kitchen, and TV in livingroom.

They are allowed to bark when the door goes, but I admit to using an aversive, (Water Spray bottle) to back up my wishes for silence.  they6a re not mentally delicate, but don't enjoy a squirt of water to the face in mid bark. Usually it's enough to pick up the bottle if quiet command ignored.

A breed I have been attracted to has been the Cirneco Del Etna which to all intents looks like a smaller Pharaoh hound. Neither appear noisy at shows.

> Leonbergers i found out at crufts are faily easy to train but at crufts they said they need 2hrs of exercise a day.

I would imagine it was up to two hours, most dogs don't get that unless they live on property with free range on grounds.

My own breed can hunt all day and is considered energetic, but are perfectly happy with an hour a day, in fact they are a switch off at home dog.

I was surprised to find that the majority of owners in UK and USA are older people, now 24years later I am in that bracket).

All the Leos I know get a normal amount of excersise (about an hour) but at a generally at a slower pace than I take. On the other hand they are strong, so training is a must. https://www.leonbergerclubofgb.com/puppy-buyers-guide

What I like about them is compared to Newfies etc, they do not drool.

When i was talking to someone in Grey rescue about ex racers they always say keep on lead and muzzled when out and about for their own and other animals safety.

That's more or less what I was told suejaw. As  I have cats apparently some can with care be trained  to be safely around their own cats or small creatures but the prey drive can  still be  an issue out and about  and for me it is too bigger risk  .
Personally I would only have one if I used secure fields which is feasible and no cats or other small furries at home
Shame because they seem to be very suitable in other ways