Hello, I am looking for general advice on refunds;
I very recently purchased a Pedigree GSD puppy at extreme cost.. After getting home after an 8 hour round trip we realised that the puppy didn’t get along with one of our other dogs, and felt that perhaps we hadn’t completely thought the whole process through... Feeling it would be better to return the puppy ASAP rather than keeping even for a few days as a bond would develop and even though it would be easier for us to sell the puppy on locally, we felt as it was our mistake, the only morally correct thing would be to return puppy.. The Breeder stated there would be no refund, but even so we still returned the dog after another arduous 8 hour round trip! I also felt that the Breeder would recant and on seeing our concern for the puppy would still offer some form of refund.. We returned the puppy, and it is now being advertised again for same high price.. She still refuses a refund , even 50%, despite fact she’ll be reselling at same price...
Any advice gladly welcomed...Oh and no contracts were exchanged!!

As you have no contract with the seller(most responsible breeders require an extensive contract)the seller did not even have to take the puppy. As you state you paid'a high price' for this puppy  & yet you signed no contract ? You returned the puppy & he/she is no longer your dog/bitch learn from your mistake & if there is a next time think long & hard.

24 hours is no time for an older dog to accept a puppy & you have never given the puppy & other dog a chance. Is this an old dog/bitch, middle aged dog/ bitch, young dog/bitch ? Does this dog/bitch 'get along'with ALL your other dogs ?

I have male dogs who will not allow young puppies near them & others who act like the bitches do & mother them & play with them & ALL my dogs are/ were full time working dogs who have never been bred from, yet they eventually accept new puppies/dogs.

I find that it takes my older dogs at least 3 weeks to feel completely comfortable with any new puppy I have brought into the house. I do however think that the breeder in this instance is quite wrong if they are refusing to refund any money at all. My own feeling is, that in the breeders position, I would rather refund the full amount straight away and have no further contact with the buyer but others are inclined to wait till the puppy is resold and deduct kenneling costs then refund the difference. I do think in all fairness you should get some money back but I must add that I think you were too hasty in returning the puppy and I hope you think more carefully in the future.

It took 6 months of careful introduction for my (now deceased!) dog to accept puppies!  She did, though, accept 2 additions... via a lot of stair-gates, crating, separation and house-lines with supervision.

Anyway, back to the refund situation.  As a breeder, if a puppy owner returned a pup to me in 24hrs, I would give a full refund.  I would in fact make this very clear when they told me, because I would want to encourage them to make the effort of returning the pup to me and not sending it to rescue or selling it privately. 

I don't have situations like this covered in my contract (and I do have a contract) because there are too many individual differences between situations and because my priority is always to get the pup back, no matter what.  But I don't really want to advertise I will give a full refund whatever, whenever - because I will first try to offer a reduced price if the pup is older - to recoup my costs of re-training and housing the pup and because I'm unlikely to be able to sell the pup at full cost if they are a bit older. 

In the last litter we bred, we had a pup come back to us 4 days after she had gone to her new home at 8wks - and we refunded full price for that pup and picked her up ourselves at 9am the next morning.  

We also had a pup that we homed at 8wks that was returned to us at 12wks.  We took 25% off the original price when we bought the pup back because the pup was a bit older, was going to be harder to place as a result.  The pup came back with a lot of awful behaviour in the crate and obese(!).  We resold the pup for the same reduced price at 16wks, with a lot of training put in.  But if the owners had refused our reduced price offer, we would have refunded in full - getting the pup back was the priority, not the money.

Well given they've had this puppy back so fast, I'd have paid a full refund, maybe minus a minimal charge for 'boarding' until a new home for that puppy, was found. 

You had no Sale Contract - hum.  I take the point 1234 makes re not putting mention of a REFUND in a sale contract, mine just said that I'd take the puppy back if AT ANY POINT in it's life, the home failed.  I didn't want any of my puppies 'sold on' without at least being involved.  And as said, the most important thing for me, was to get the puppy back safely.   This is still very shabby, especially as the breeders had the puppy back so soon.   BTW a day is no time to have any existing family dogs settle down with an 'incomer'. 

I'm sorry you've had this experience, but quite honestly, it could have been avoided - especially had you bought from a known reputable breeder (via the Breed Club).    I suppose you might be able to go to the Small Claims Court but in general,   I don't think you have a leg to stand on, just hopefully a lesson learnt.

If you have any proof of purchase such as evidence of bank transfer or a receipt then you might stand a chance in the small claims court, but otherwise, I think you're going to struggle.

Simplistically the refund is requested based on a "change of mind" and as such, without a contract, you are not entitled to anything.  I would imagine this breeder is feeling rather angry that he/she got it so wrong in selling the pup to you in the first place.  He/she might have calmed down in a few days when the pup hopefully has a new home and you could try again with a good explanation of what went wrong and appeal from a moral point of view.   But if it is entitlement you are looking for then I think you are wasting your time.

Contact your local Citizens Advice and furnish them with all the details. They will be able to tell you what options (if any) are available to you.

For a puppy returned after 24 hours I'd have given a full refund; that's clearly stated in my contract. But as you have no contract there's not much you can do. It often takes resident dogs - especially male dogs - a few weeks to accept a new puppy so you might have reacted a bit hastily. I wish you all the best sorting this one out.

Just to add these 'changes of mind' situations can be difficult and I think, are best treated as an individual event.   

I ran on a bitch puppy who was the most promising from a litter I took from the sister of my Champ. bitch.  Once, after a disasterous whelping which I've mentioned before, I saw the quality of the 2 remaining bitches from that later litter (2 bitches and 2 males surviving from an original 9), I decided one of those two bitches was better than the bitch I'd kept from the first litter.   And found her what I'd hoped was a good home, selling her at a minimal sum because she was, by then around 8 months.  As it happened for good reason, I had to rescue her from an abusive situation (a squaddie son had come home and was causing her great distress, kicking a football AT her and more).  I said I'd make a refund, minus a small daily boarding fee, once another home had been found.  She seemed ok with that and I did, the refund being almost what they'd paid me for her as a new home turned up very quickly.   That woman then came back at me telling me if she'd have known what I'd give her back, she'd have sold her herself.   Obviously somebody else had been speaking to her!!   I only charged a very nominal price (can't remember how much but seem to remember it wasn't any more than £50) for her with her new owner.   I almost kept her myself, but our numbers were up there - I'd kept one of the two bitches and one of the two males from the sister's litter.

Stuff happens but most breeders would want to protect their reputation!!

I agree you were to quick to judge and did not give enough time for the puppy and older dog to bond. I own a GSD male and a Female Labrador and it took over 6 months for my GSD boy to finally accept her even though she accepted him from day one. He took a lot longer. Next time go to a good breeder and sighn a contract i always sighn a contract. And give both dogs more time to bond.

The problem is no contract. Did you get a receipt? How did you make payment?
I had a pup returned to me after 2 days and they got all their money back, all i cared about was the pup and 2 days is no real time at all so she came back and stayed with me until i found her the right home.
Reputable breeders would and do give contracts and in this instance would give a full refund.
Are the breeders assured breeders or members of one of the gsd breed clubs?

Thankyou to all of you who gave advice! Really appreciate! Of course I realise I am to blame for perhaps a 'knee-jerk' response and I feel a steep and expensive learning curve has been realised...My fear is that the Law once again seems to protect an almost 'criminal act'; ie apparently, a Breeder by Law doesn't have a legal right to give a buyer a refund..But I did the right thing by puppy and Breeder by returning puppy, at great expenditure of time/money (9 hour round trip twice) only to be given nothing back in return! This is surely a kind of theft in any other circumstance..Plus she,the Breeder isn't able to justify why she's not giving a refund which any responsible and moral Breeder would deem to be the only reasonable and right thing to do..As many of you have said they have done or would do in similar circumstances..The Breeder is very young and seems to be running this money making exercise on the property of her Grandparents and doesn't seem to have a Moral Code of Ethics to abide by...This should be a warning to all potential buyers of puppies that indeed a Contract must be exchanged and not to be seduced by apparent 'Champion lines' with no actual certificate proofs to back it up..I have to admit that I fell foul to one of my children aged 12 who'd seen the advert and fallen in Love, and I a parent rushed in to fulfil her dream without really doing the full investigations that I should...THis is a sound learning experience that has severely cost me on many levels...Citizens Advice have recommended a Trading Standards investigation and that is the only action that can be taken...
It is heartening to hear so many Breeders on this Forum who are Professional and have a Code of Ethics ,but it is such a shame that there are those out there who literally run these poor animals as a business exercise only with money in mind..
I have to take responsibility for my part in this sorry affair but my Conscience has been assuaged slightly by the puppy being at least with its original family until resold...But I do feel this is a serious injustice regardless...

Alex, I agree with you. Hopefully just the threat of Trading Standards involvement will bring this young lady to her senses and you get some financial recompense. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Here I will go against those who believe you have"the right"to your money back, because you have rejected the puppy for no valid reason.

You haven't answered any if my questions, probably because I didn't support your belief the breeder should be forced to refund your money, because you no longer want the puppy, not because the puppy has been found to be "defective" in someway, but because you state that one( not all)your dogs didnt like him.

I very much doubt that trading standards will get involved, because the breeder has done nothing wrong in law. They didn't force you to return the puppy, they didn't make false claims in adverts & there is nothing physically wrong with the puppy. Have you got the two dogs on video to prove one of your existing dogs didn't"accept" the new puppy ? If not you have no proof & it's proof that trading standards will require, not opinions nor observations not backed up by evidence.

The breeder is NOT a criminal & has broken no law. I think anyone who could subject a young puppy to 2 x 8( or 9 depending on which post is correctt time wise) hour journeys in 24 hours could be considered to possibly be in breech of the Animal Welfare act.

Caveat emptor applies-it's for the buyer to ensure that there is a proper contract drawn up to ensure THEIR rights are known & proof obtained, there is no legal requirement for sellers to explain that if they buyers don't want the "item"(in this case a puppy)for no legal reason( ie defective in some way) they will not refund the purchase price. Did you even discuss this ?

Whether this is "moral" or not is not matter trading standards can act on. They deal with the law not morals.

If the breeder had been me, I would not have refunded your money immediately, just because you no longer wanted the puppy, which you effectively bought on impulse because your child wanted it. I would refund some of the cost after the puppy had found a more suitable home less boarding costs.  I would also have been appalled that anyone would only give a puppy 24 hours before being rejected. Your reply smacks of wanting replies that you wanting support of your actions.

I'm very surprised you managed to get such a fast response from the CAB, the demand for their help is in great demand & it usually requires a face to face appointment to see what documentation you have, so that can give accurate advice & that certainly isn't done in a couple if days.

Hopefully just the threat of Trading Standards involvement will bring this young lady to her senses and you get some financial recompense.

How do you know the breeder is a young lady ?? Why should there be financial recompense immediately ? Threat of what ? Trading standards are highly unlikely to take any action as the puppy was"fit for purpose" it is the buyer who has rejected the puppy for no valid reason in law & who now feels hard done by & that a near criminal act has been committed. Such a thing does not exist in law, something is either a criminal act or not a criminal act.

> <br />How do you know the breeder is a young lady ??

Because the OP most recent post states she & young!!

Ha missed that in the rambling post in which the OP changed the travelling time from 8 to 9 hours.

"Threatening"someone who allegedly is running a "highly profitable" money making scheme without first consulting the Trading Standards-NOT the CAB- is a bit foolish. If the breeder has not made false claims(like being KC registered when the dog is not etc), the puppy is fit & well & the only reason for rejection is that one of the existing has allegedly refused to accept the puppy in the 24 hours after purchase then the Trading Standards will not be able to take action. Especially with the funding restraits that local authorities have, they would take the complaint, look at it & then not be able to act on it, because no law breaking has occurred.

Seems to me the OP has acted in haste over half term to appease a child, spent a lot of money without ensuring they had made the right decision & want their money back. If this had been an inanimate object they would not have any recourse in law, to want a refund for buying something & have NO valid reason to return it, it is the same for a living thing. They returned the puppy despite being told there would be no refund they still returned the puppy hoping to emotionally blackmail the breeder into returning their money & then diss the breeder for being immoral for not acquiescing to their demands !

Sorry I have no sympathy for impulse buyers demanding that people should fall over backwards to put right their mistakes.

I notice much has been made about money & high prices paid, yet when asked questions they are ignored.

I have to laugh I have seen run of the mill border collie puppies being touted for sale for £1,000 each, because the breeder has bred dog(s) that have won at Crufts, not in breed nor the Obedience Championships, that are not directly related to the puppies for sale, when I could go to any sheepdog trials & buy a young dog that can work(proved at the sale)for less than that price with a far better pedigree.

I do hope the OP has learnt by their mistake.

Just a thought is it still half term ??

Again, as I posted, in this situation I'd make a refund but ONLY AFTER a new home had been found for the poor puppy (never forget what this must have done to the PUPPY with all that travelling, which seems to have lengthened from the original 8 hours, to a 9 hour round trip ) and deducting a minimal 'boarding fee'.  In other words making the buyer appreciate what they had done.   I'd NOT have given a full refund.

I too am rather surprised OP managed to get hold of the CAB so fast, with advice!!  That would have taken at least a week down here

Agree with Tommee and Mamabas , i recently saw went to CAB for help and i went in to be told i need an appointment and the nearest appointment was in two weeks which i have booked for. So not sure how you spoke to them so soon. Im not a breeder but if i was i would not have refunded you either not without good reason of why your returning the puppy as all this travelling will have an impact on that poor GSD puppy. And like Tommee says trading standard wont do anything for you as you have no proof she did anything wrong which in my opinion she didnt you were the one who changed your mind straight away after bringing the puppy home.if the puppy was healthy and nothing wrong with it i would not refund at all as you changed your mind on a perfectly healthy puppy. And you should never ever get a dog just because your child really wanted one that is never a good idea. If i had a child who wanted a dog i would first tell them to volunteer at a rescue to prove to me there serious and understand the responsibility of dog ownership and that there not going to get bored after awhile and end up letting me do everything.

> I think anyone who could subject a young puppy to 2 x 8( or 9 depending on which post is correctt time wise) hour journeys in 24 hours could be considered to possibly be in breech of the Animal Welfare act.

As the times are for a round trip, the puppy would only have been travelling for half of that time. The other half of the time would be the travelling between the breeder's house and the buyer's house, without the puppy. 4 or 5 hours isn't an unreasonable length of time for a puppy to travel to its new home.

I agree that trading standards won't get involved because no law has been broken; the puppy was 'fit for purpose', nor falsely advertised.

I would have given a full refund for a puppy returned so soon. Mind you I wouldn't have sold a puppy to someone that hadn't been on my waiting list and that I had had several long discussions with, and who hadn't visited at least once before coming to collect the puppy!

> in this situation I'd make a refund but ONLY AFTER a new home had been found for the poor puppy.......

> and deducting a minimal 'boarding fee'.  In other words making the buyer appreciate what they had done.   I'd NOT have given a full refund.

This has been my policy.

I make it clear that in my breed people rarely expect to pay for an older puppy or dog returnee, so then I don't charge a rehoming fee and no refund is given, but a pup under 12 weeks a refund of the price I receive less boarding/expenses..

Even 9 hours travelling in 24 hours is too much.

I travelled more than 4.5 hours to collect a puppy, but never twice in 24 hours & the actually travelling time wss far more because of several lenghty breaks for toilet breaks etc for puppy.

The this is though Alex most breeders take weeks (if not months or years) to get to know someone before offering them one of their beloved puppies, so it's not as simple as selling the puppy on again, it's finding the right home which could take time, meanwhile the puppy is getting older and needing more socialisation, training and one to one attention and all the time becoming less appealing to a potential buyer as it ages. So I think the breeder is withing their rights to wait and see how long it takes to find the right home, and how much they are able to sell the puppy for and then decide if and how much refund you should get.

> Even 9 hours travelling in 24 hours is too much.

?

Gosh one of mine involved travelling for 24hrs (for the pup) it was a full 48hrs for me. Pup slept most of the way and when he was awake he had the boot of the car to play in, toys and chews to entertain himself with and frequent stops. We arrived home at 5am (in winter) and he was not phased one bit by meeting all the other dogs in the garden, in the dark, or the journey. All of mine have involved at least an 8 to 12 hour trip for pup home, same with every silken in Scotland. I don't think there is anything wrong with that provided the comfort (and safety) of the pup is the primary concern in the journey. I know many dogs that were imports and involved long flights and/or road trips, nothing at all wrong with this. We can't all just find the right dog down the road

I agree with chaumsong.  Puppies just sleep on journeys. 

What is going on?!?  It's like no one can post anything, without someone spotting some small part of their narrative to crap on.

> Mind you I wouldn't have sold a puppy to someone that hadn't been on my waiting list and that I had had several long discussions with, and who hadn't visited at least once before coming to collect the puppy!

Too right!

Trading Standards may not be interested but HMRC could well be. Her local council may also wish to be informed as she may be in breech of their breeding licence requirements.

whoops ! Should read  'in breach' !

You are presuming this breeder isn't complying with the Tax rules & LA licensing rules without any proof. As the puppies were advertised(on the internet I presume) most of the puppy sites require proof of LA licensing.

Perhaps the OP can report her & hence force her to return the money, one way of recouping their losses for rejecting an impulse buy puppy & then it can be spent on another impulse buy to appease the child, who is no doubt bereft after losing their desired puppy

That could be very unpleasant.reporting her then using that to get money back . Or threatening her with being reported to get money back .I know those words haven't been used but it really makes me very uncomfortable about the whole situation.

Precisely my thoughts about the post including the HMRC reference.

While for me if a puppy was returned while still of an age where it could be resold for the full price I would give a full refund, after that an older puppy will have a lower resale value in which case I'd refund what the puppy was resold for.
However it does come under buyer beware and if there was nothing wrong with the puppy or it wasn't mis-advertised the seller does not have to give a refund if the buyer simply changes their mind. Breeders may offer refunds to help ensure a puppy they bred comes back to them to be rehomed but they don't have to.

This is a bit harsh Tommee. I am not suggesting 'revenge recuperation'. The OP came to CD for advice and has been admonished for impulse buying of this puppy.  The breeder is equally culpable- by acquiescing in this and supplying the puppy. Now call me naive if you will but I thought/hoped that the new legislation would protect puppies from such transactions. Puppies continue to be advertised on line, on numerous sites, and I very much doubt that the breeders believe  that it will be enforced or even implemented.
Just reading some of the OPs in the breeding section of CD makes me almost lose the will to live. Okay, we all have to start somewhere but so many questions that should have been asked well in advance of planning a litter ! Do the deed and ask the question later seems to be the modus operandi.

My glass of wine is full. I'm off to bed.
I still have the will to live- a bit !

> i recently saw went to CAB for help and i went in to be told i need an appointment and the nearest appointment was in two weeks which i have booked for. So not sure how you spoke to them so soon.

Most CAB offices offer a telephone 'answering' service. Most have a drop in facilities and/or an appointment service. I guess it just depends on where you live.

Interestingly if you visit the CAB website about a Trading Standards issue, the instructions are to use their helpline & they will then forward your issue to the Trading Standards, which would indicate that they do not give advice directly, not surprising really as if they give incorrect advice they could be legally responsible to some extent.

Their helpine is national I believe

They are of course all unpaid volunteers & only give basic advice during drop in visits, they just do not have the time to fully assess problems on an ad hoc basis.

Lookinging at the ones around us .I am south London ) Surrey they vary as to how u can get info and give various ways .including limited hours for  drop in ,phone advice online.a lot seems to be  as a signposting organisation
Guess it's down to the individual area as to what they can offer and how they offer it .