Hello!

First time breeder here and learning lots to make sure I am doing everything correctly. What does everyone do RE: vaccinations?

I got my first dog at 12 weeks old vaccinated and my 2nd at 8 weeks unvaccinated, yet I know a lot of people like to vaccinate before going to their new home. However surely does this not become a bit of an issue for the new owners having to find a vet that will offer 2nd vacs only (most from my experience offer a standard "puppy pack" with everything??) and also finding a vet local that has the same vacs course. Obviously protecting the pups are my no.1 priority, but forcing the new owners to take them to a vet which might not be local to them surely is going to be annoying for them?

What do you guys do/what is your experience?

*Please no anti-vacs arguments, I'm not interested in them. Also I have experienced parvo first hand and nearly lost an 8 week old pup and it was devastating, so vaccinating against it is my priority*

If the pups are going at 8 weeks leave it for the new owners to sort.
If older than 10 weeks do the first one. The new owners will have to find a vet near to them to get the 2nd vaccine of the same brand be it nobivac, vanguard etc
Ive purchased a pup which had its first vaccine, my vets didnt stock it but they could. I just rang around all the other local vets and found one who did and went there for 2nd, no issues

All the breeders I've bought dogs from have left both vaccines to me to do after discussion with them.should add they have been older than  8 weeks usually 12 when they came to me .

I only vaccinate the pups that are staying longer than 8 weeks. I ask the new owner to check which make of vaccine their own vets uses then take the pup to whichever vet local to me uses the same one. It can sometimes mean visiting more than one vet but it's no big deal.

Absolutely no point in vaccinating without a titre first for puppies. My vet refuses to do any vaccinations for dogs with unknown titre levels. Maternal immunity can extend well beyond 8 weeks so he titre tests at 10 weeks & vaccinates in line with results & independant of results, dogs of this age only require 1 vaccination as per manufacturers guidelines so less of a challenge to the puppies immune system.

Vaccination does not  prevent infection with the disease, the allegedly lessen the symptoms

Dogs over 10 weeks of age should only have 1 vaccination as per the manufacturers guidelines.

Wish all vets were like yours tommee.

Personally, I would not want to purchase a vaccinated puppy.  Because I want to wait until my pup is 12-14wks+ old and then give just ONE vaccine, which doesn't have any lepto in it - and then titre test 2 weeks later to see that this was effective.

I wouldn't be very happy to get a pup that had already been vaccinated and/or vaccinated with lepto.  It would be a deal breaker for me as a puppy buyer and I'd look elsewhere...

If the pups go at 8 weeks, no vaccinations. If at 10 weeks or older, both. I never give just the first unless the buyer knows that their vet has the same vaccine in stock.

I do hope you never have a dog die of Lepto, it is not nice

Not happened in the last 40 odd years & a friend had 3 lepto vaccinated dogs  contract Lepto over the years & all 3 died.

I hope YOU never have a dog die from adverse reaction to Lepto vaccination I have witnessed this after taking a friend to the vets for a "booster" & his dog died the next day, the PM revealed the the Vaccine was the cause & he received compensation from the maker, sadly it couldn't bring his dog back

I wrote - and lost it!!   So - those we kept were always vaccinated at 10 weeks together with any who had yet to go to their new homes.   To be honest, best practice would be to titre test so it's known what's needed HOWEVER this expense was beyond what we felt able to cope with.   I knew of a breeder in Canada who did that with every puppy in each of their litters.   I never knew what they discovered re what was needed.

In all the years 'with puppy', sticking to the usual protocol has never failed us and frankly if more people decided not to vaccinate their puppies, those often fatal diseases we used to see, and no longer do, may well start to reappear.

I didn't vaccinate puppies I didn't keep for the sole reason that all too often vets prefer to 'start again' with vaccination, which is something I didn't want for our puppies.   Obviously the few I let go at 8 weeks, to experienced people, all went with strict instructions not to take out off their property and get the vaccination done by their own vets, at 10 weeks.

The only dog I know who has had lepto, was fully vaccinated against it (with Lepto 2 - this was before Lepto 4) - he was at the vets for 2 days on ABs and made a full recovery.

MamaBas, if you bred in North America, your puppies would not have been vaccinated for lepto either - because lepto is not a core vaccine in the US and wouldn't be given if you took your puppy to the vet for puppy shots....

1234 .  I have just dug out my vaccination records, from Canada, and my hounds WERE vaccinated against Lepto!!!  I didn't only breed in Canada!!!   I bred 5 litters out there, before returning to the UK in the late 1980s, and then 5 more here before I stopped, in 1997.

For your info.  Looking at a litter we bred in March 1984, as per their Certificate of Vaccination, those puppies were vaccinated against Distemper, Hep. LEPTO, Parainfluenza and Parvovirus.  Rabies came later.

  Wow, maybe the US updated their core vaccines in that case!   Or maybe Canada is different to US... But anyway:  Currently, lepto isn't given to puppies in the US.  Unless you specifically say 'I want the lepto jab please' to the vet...

Personally my plan was not to vaccinate them, I had explained to the people on the waiting list that the pup wouldn't be vaccinated when it left at 8 weeks due to the higher chance of it being blocked by maternal antibodies and the common issue of vets not just giving a second one to new owners. I also had a section in my puppy booklet again talking about vaccinations covering when to start to better avoid maternal antibodies, about boostering and titre testing instead. In case they forgot what I had told them.

My girl I brought wasn't vaccinated but being my first dog I too my vets advise who said 8 weeks was fine and they even do as young as 6-8 weeks. So I had my girl done at 8-10 weeks old, she got parvo at 7 months vac company played to titre test her and she only had cover to parvo. A leading vet in that area said it's most likely her were blocked by maternal antibodies, in future have the last one around 12/14 weeks. Learnt my lesson then. This pup had the last one at 12 weeks and I titre tested him at 6 months old and his results came back high for them so I know they wernt blocked this time.

V interesting JoStockbridge... I've never understood why there are some vaccine manufacturers (ie Nobivac) who say that you can do 1 jab at 8wks and 2nd at 10wks - there would be a lot of unprotected pups walking around, if vaccinations finished at 10wks.

If you really want to avoid maternal antibodies, even finishing at 12wks is quite early - 16wks would be safe.  You can then titre 2 weeks later, to check everything has taken and that dog should then be protected for life.

I expect in lab conditions where the dams don't top up their immunity in the environment, and perhaps pups are split from Mum sooner, that they have less passive protection from theIr DAM THAN A BITCH THAT GOES FOR WALKS EVERY DAY.

> Or maybe Canada is different to US..

Very much so, as any self-respecting Canadian will insist is the case, with most things!!     I'll have to ask my friend in Texas what's done where she lives....

But back to the question - I guess if people want to go the individual titre testing route rather than go with the 'norm', that's up to them BUT when I enquired locally about the cost of doing that, I was quoted in excess of £60 which, stacked up against the usual cost of puppy vaccination isn't really viable, other than to prevent 'unnecessary vaccination'.   If I was still breeding (and I asked re titres before having my current two boostered), I'd stick with the tried and tested protocol of externally vaccinating at 10 weeks with a second, booster, at 12 weeks.   And make sure that my bitch was up to date with boosters before being mated.   I'd do different re timing, if, for some reason, my litters didn't take mum's first milk.

It doesn't cost £60 unless you have a vet who isn't bothered about it and wants to put you off. If you find a vet who uses Vaccicheck, it's about £30 or comparable to a jab...

> It doesn't cost £60 unless you have a vet who isn't bothered about it and wants to put you off. If you find a vet who uses Vaccicheck, it's about £30 or comparable to a jab...

I haven't the faintest idea whether or not there was an 'ulterior motive' on the part of that vet (which Practice I no longer use, for other reasons) to be quoting me that figure.  But it didn't take much for me to decide not to bother with titres!!   My two adults have since been boostered every 3 years apart from the Lepto one, but as one is 8 going on 9 years now and the other 9 going on 10 (where do the years ago), neither of them are being boostered any more.   If they are not 'protected' by now, they never will be

ps    As we were seeing rats during the past Winter, I did have them both boostered against Lepto.

> It doesn't cost £60 unless you have a vet who isn't bothered about it and wants to put you off. If you find a vet who uses Vaccicheck, it's about £30 or comparable to a jab...

When I was looking for a vet that did VacciCheck it turned out most vets didn't use it. All the others would have to send it off to one of the labs which will cost at least £60, I've seen some people being quotes over £100!

If u go to the pet alliancewebsite  they have a map of.those using vaccicheck although not totally up to date . also mamy  of the chains are using it now .the higher prices are with vets who are sending off to labs for testing and do vary substantially so.the £60 would actually be quite reasonable. Some people have managed to pursade their vet to stock vaccicheck but as they have to buy 10 or 12 in the pack they often ask u to  get a group who want it done together so it is cost effective for the vet.

There is a massive map of vet practices offering Vaccicheck all over the UK on the Vaccicheck FB page:  https://www.facebook.com/vaccicheckuk  You can hardly see any UK underneath all the yellow blobs, there are so many.... I don't think anyone needs travel far to see one!!

If you zoom in on that map the yellow dog heads get smaller and further apart. In a major city there are only 3 within 15 miles of me and great swathes of Scotland have none.

Well I emailed my friend in Texas re what they do - how about this .....

"The puppies start off with a vaccine covering distemper, hepatitis, coronavirus, parainfluenza, parvo and adenovirus starting at 6 weeks of age and then progress to one which includes lepto at 12 weeks.  Because most people like us do their own vaccinations at a cheaper price (of course!), we start earlier than a vet normally does.  I suspect that lepto is included in a vet's normal puppy shot but obviously can't say for certain."

Hum.    I don't see what doing it themselves has to do with getting them vaccinated younger than a vet normally does.   And to me, vaccinating at 6 weeks is too early for the jab to do anything.   Unless her puppies never take mum's first milk!!!   I'm not getting into an argument about what they do with her

ps     Going by the link to the map showing those practices who do offer Vaccicheck, the main Practice of the one who quoted me £60+ is listed!!

I guess some will still charge a single consult fee regardless of number of dogs u are checking. At least u know u wernt being misquoted
. I had a look at the other companies regs and seems to vary state to state and I still think ma y just attend the vet and don't really know what their dogs are getting and the vet automatically adds lepto regardless of if it's really core in thay area.reason given would be necessity. If u do ykir ownas in your friend I guess it's about personal knowledge and choice .other than rabies nothing else is mandatory in the US. I don't believe it is in Canada though.

That's true but at least knowing its somethung that cN be done if u can travel may be helpful.  Hopeful it will become more available.

I've heard of vets in the US starting vaccines at 6 weeks so its not just your friend.

The more I think about all of this, the more I'm questioning what I thought I knew (re mum's immunity dropping off from 5 weeks, until by 8 weeks, external vaccination is relevant and will usually 'take)!    I have a suspicion that my friend vaccinating at 6 weeks, probably means that vaccination is pointless and it's the 12 week set that works!?    She's way more experienced at breeding than I ever was - carrying on with our breed after living with mum who was a breeder/judge, and moving to Canada and then America when she married her husband, also very experienced in the breed.  They have bred way more litters than I ever did, with a well-known and respected bloodline. Hey ho.  The longer one lives, the less one knows

When I have time, I must check back on the age we externally vaccinted our litters, in Canada.

I don't know at what age my friend sells her puppies but they do run on a number from their litters, before making a decision about which are the best, going forward.

're vaccination I dont think it's about experience in breeding more about knowledge of vaccination and the processes of immunity .
With regard to giving more than one it's a but like playing darts if u throw enough one will get the bullseye and immunity is conferred .or that's how I see it
Few will check immunity after any vaccination .we assume it has worked so how many are actually covered especially with early vaccination.  And if u don't titre within a few weeks there is the danger that titres arnt going to be accurate as memory cells won't show

So, this subject is quite complicated...

If puppies don't receive colostrum from their mum immediately after birth, then they may have no maternal antibodies.  In which case, having an early vaccine at 5-6 weeks - especially if in an area with a parvo risk - might be important.

That situation aside and assuming pups got colostrum, then it depends on mum's own antibody levels as to when they wear off.  In the US, there is the capacity for a vet to take a sample of mum's blood a couple weeks before whelping, and for this to be used to make a nomograph, telling you exactly when - for the puppies - the maternal antibodies will wear off so you know exactly when to time the vaccinations.  This isn't available in the UK yet.

Then:  The various different diseases we vaccinate against, typically see maternal antibodies protecting to a different age for puppies.  Distemper vaccine, for eg, works in pups from 12 weeks onwards.  Parvo vaccine may not work until a puppy is 16 weeks.  Yet distemper is pretty rare and it's very unlikely a puppy would pick it up before vaccination.  Parvo is more of a risk, dependent on where you live.

And then there is the percentages game:  Something like 80% of puppies are protected at 8 weeks, 90% at 10 weeks, 95% at 12 weeks (I'm making these %s up here, but there is research into all this and they are something like that) - but that is no consternation if your puppy is in the 5% not protected at 12 weeks and contracts parvo.  So it then becomes a bit of a statistical gambling game if you choose not to give it.

And then there is socialisation and the importance of that:  If people wait longer to vaccinate so they only need give one vaccination, are they going to wrap their puppy up in cotton wool more and are we going to see more under-socialised puppies? 

It's a difficult one.  But to me there is something inherently 'not right' about sticking vaccinations in a puppy at 8 weeks when we are going to do exactly the same thing at 10 or 12 weeks - and when the pup really only needs one of these....

another thought to throw in ...........

I 'think' some people vaccinate toys later but

Why do they give the same dose to a toy pup as to a giant breed pup, surely the concentration of 'chemicals' is then far higher in the total blood content of a chi or pom than in a Newf or Leo etc which has x? times the amount of blood to dilute it.

Isn't the second (or third) jab only to 'booster' what was given in the first vaccination..... or to work IF the first jab was done too soon?

The more I think about this, the more I get.   I guess I went with what clearly worked with mine!   Tried and tested (or tested and tried!!).

I don't understand re the 'same dose' either.   Putting a lot into my Basset - fine.  But the same into my Whippet

I hope the OP here is still with all this

Some vets are looking at using amount's as per the size or weight of dog but it's not common
I doubt we know what's worked as  unless our dogs get ill we assume the vaccine ois the reason they are well  .vaccinated dogs do get ill with these diseases as no vaccine is 100 % is that because of early vaccines , or maybe they are non responders and no vaccine will work for them

Yes the second is usually to make sure it worked even if mothers immunity  stopped the first. If immunity has been conferred extra doesn't add more immunity

>Isn't the second (or third) jab only to 'booster' what was given in the first vaccination..... or to work IF the first jab was done too soon?

The 2nd or 3rd is exactly the same stuff as the 1st, it is given just in case the first was too early to work. It will NOT 'boost' what was given in the first vaccination. 

The 1st vaccination either worked (resulted in immunity) or it didn't. 

If the 1st vaccination worked, then you don't need the 2nd.

If the 1st vaccination didn't work, it was because it was given too early - so you didn't need it. 

Either way, you don't need one or the other.  One or the other is redundant.  It's just that people have no idea which is redundant for a particular dog.  Without testing.

Facebook Feedback:

Sharon Martin says:  If given at 10+ weeks of age they only need one vaccination, so I personally leave it to the new owners

Valerie Hill says: My puppies usually leave at 8weeks and advise new owners to vaccinate at 9and 11weeks.

Karen Bovio says: Some vets do 10 weeks and 12 weeks so I leave that to the new owners

Sarah Renwick-Nash says: Leave for new owners

--- Suzi Tagg says:  Agree totally

----- Sally Griffin says:  Agree

Maureen Wood says: Always vaccinate at 8wks when microchip is done

Yolanda Stutley says: I always leave mine for the new owners to do because then it ensures they register with a vet and get another health check at the same time. If had issues with where iv paid the full amount to have pups fully vaccinated and they go to there new homes and vets for there second vaccination only to be told the batch numbers are different so the course has to be started again wich then causes the issue of over vaccinating, I also advise against any lepto vaccinations because of the majority of dogs having such sever reactions to it that it either causes lifetime issues with there liver, seizures, or death in what was previously a perfectly healthy pup, plus you have more chance of treating lepto with antibiotics if daughter early then treating the adverse side effects. there are also soooooo many strains of lepto but only 2 are coverd by the vaccine

Lorraine Marsh says:  It’s such a tough topic, I have Veterinary background so understand the risk of disease, but also have a good level of knowledge on the immune system and maternal antibodies. As a breeder, I feel it is my responsibility to give first vaccination, as a behaviourist, I feel pups are much better placed at 8 weeks old. Are new licensing laws insisting on vaccines at 8 weeks?

Whiteways Whippets says: My vets prefer to do the first vaccines at 10 weeks, and the vets generally now want to use the same brand of vaccine for both injections. So unless the pup is staying until it is over 10 weeks I leave it to the new owner. If it is staying,I ask the ne…See more

Caroline Smith says:  I have been a breeder for many years, I constantly have problems regarding first vaccinations, have decided now that I will only do Lepto 2 first vaccine! However I would prefer to do none, as compatability is an issue when the pup goes to his new home!

>Why do they give the same dose to a toy pup as to a giant breed pup, surely the concentration of 'chemicals' is then far higher in the total blood content of a chi or pom than in a Newf or Leo etc which has x? times the amount of blood to dilute it.

The vaccine isn't injected into the bloodstream, it goes under the skin. And if you think about it, it doesn't matter the size of the dog that sniffs the contamination on the ground when they catch the disease - they all get the same amount of infection. In other words; small dogs don't 'catch' less of the disease than large dogs.

Furriefriends I have friends in oklahoma who adopted two Yorkie mix type dogs from the shelter, both came home, at 10 weeks old, already vaccinated AND NEUTERED schedules showed vaccines given at 6 and 10 weeks although I've no idea (and suspect perhaps the shelter had none either) if they'd had colostrum or not. Friends were quite perplexed that their own vet advised titre testing and/or boosters at 16 weeks.

With regard to dosages, vaccines aren't a drug, the injured or altered or dead agent must meet with enough immune cells in the locality of where it is administered, to allow an immunity to form. So dose of the agent needn't relate to size. It only needs to be enough to interact with x amount of white cells, and as blood is not "more concentrated" in smaller creatures that dose won't vary by size of creature. They give pregnant women (in order to prevent newborn pertussis) the same dose of the dtap vaccine as they give 8 week old babies.

The vaccine isn't injected into the bloodstream, it goes under the skin.

I fully appreciate this but presumably it then circulates to the various parts of the system via the blood/lymph/whatever? so the concentration would be higher and possibly more likely to cause an adverse reaction?

There's not really an "it" as vaccines have many ingredients and each one interacts differently with the cells of the body. The aim of a vaccine is for enough of the antigen to be met by the body's immune cells that effective antibodies are created by the immune system. The introduction of those antigens isn't adverse because its the intention of the vaccine. The proportion of immune cells won't vary much by size, a chihuahua will have roughly the same per ml of blood as a great dane.

I can only see adjuvant, vaccine ingredients designed to cause irritation, to make the body send a bigger immune response to the site of administration so more of the immune cells will encounter the antigen, being a potential dose-related adverse outcome. For instance the irritation of a 3 inch swelling on a toy breed would be a larger proportion of inflamed tissue overall than on a great dane. Presumably though this is taken into account at design of vaccines for animals. It may be why toy owners vaccinate a little later though.

> It will NOT 'boost' what was given in the first vaccination.

Ok.   So I used the incorrect word    Whatever the case, IF I ever buy another puppy, I will do the same as I've been doing - vaccinate at 8 weeks, or as with my Whippet, 9 weeks, and then repeat two (or three if my then vet prefers that) weeks later.  And that's assuming I have another dog who is being exercised off my property, at the time.   Otherwise I may well leave the first vaccination until 10 weeks.

As a breeder, I do give the first vaccination, having checked with the puppy buyers that their vet uses the same brand of vaccine, so as not to compromise immune systems with over vaccination. However, IMO 1 Vaccine is much to the same as any other and the issue of different brands is just a money making scam. Let's face it, a tin of beans is a tin of beans, regardless of who makes it.

The main reason it's not liked to mix vaccines  from different companies is because no testing has been done  on interactions between them so it adds to risk  .in the event of a reaction who would take responsibility  ? Each would say nothing to do with us
.financially it makes no difference unless u count the starting all over again which really shouldn't be happening

All the way back in 1992 when I purchased my foundation bitch at 11 weeks of age, she had had her first vaccination at 9 weeks and should have had the second at 12 weeks, but I was told by my vet I had to start again and had two more jabs.

Now of course I know better, but none of my pups go part vaccinated.  they either go without or go with both if staying past 10 weeks.