My 22 week old golden retriever puppy is still having the sloppy poos, we have slowly tried Simpsons sensitive, burns Duck and potato,and now weaning him onto fishmongers finest for sensitive, we have been recommend this food,as he has been on fish and potato for two weeks now. We have been weaning him onto the new food slowly over a week and every time we do the poos never firm up.
We have now got a clear  result after his guardia in fact I’m even thinking of sending another poo samples in to check again.

Have done the probotics but they made him worse.
Any advice much appreciated.

I would send another decal and test for others things as well.ie all worms and campy and guaida again . . Food wise have u considered raw ? Its helped a lot of dogs who have this issue obviously once any parasites have been identified and treated if that's the underlying cause

Have you tried feeding less than the recommended amount. it may be simply the bulkiness of the food. I agree with other poster who suggested raw, but again keep the amount down to a bare minimum.

When Frankie was still producing less than normal stools by the end of the day, I was recommended to switch him to a home-made fish (coley) and mashed potato diet.   The improvement, coupled with a tray of Hills I/D first, was immediate.  As  written before, after a while on the home-made diet, I made the switch to Arden Grange Sensitive as it contained the 'extras' I wasn't able to provide in a home-made diet.   At first, and after a while I tried switching him to one of the AG menus which was slightly cheaper.   Back with the nonsense stools.   However, having hit the wrong order button, he's now been on their Salmon and Rice diet with normal stools.

It would be worth doing repeat fecals - we did several with Frankie (and one from his buddie to make sure she was clear) before I was happy that the Giardia was sorted out.

If you need probiotics, I've found nothing better (other than most good commercial food does contain probiotics) than natural yogurt, if possible goats yogurt.

I would just add that to me, switching to a raw diet at this point, may add more complications to what's going on?   He is a young dog still - what does his breeder suggest?

I would totally recommend you switch to raw, as the high carb content of almost every kibble is not what dogs evolved to eat and they can't all tolerate it. 

I would recommend going for a complete mince, like Nutriment for example.

Stool samples are complicated:  Not all parasites and bacteria show up in every sample.  Some (especially giardia) are especially difficult to diagnose and can be very resistant to treatment.  Even more complicatedly, something like 40% of dogs have giardia in their faeces - even when they have no symptoms.  So, just because a stool sample shows giardia, it doesn't mean giardia is causing the problem.  And of course every stool sample costs about £70 to run.  When you did the stool sample, did you just sample from one poo or from several different poos?  Our vets have always recommended taking the runniest most grossest bit of 3 consecutive poos....

What exactly so far has your vet tried?  Metronidazole, I seem to remember.  Panacur?  Anything else?  I would highly recommend you read this article on giardia thoroughly:  https://www.beaglesunlimited.com/health/giardiasis-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention

My vet said pretty much the same thing about the bacteria not showing up in some samples especially with campy. He now checks samples before he sends them off, the lab is happy for him to do this as he knows what’s he’s looking for.
He told me that several samples can be checked and show clear only to be followed up by several positive ones, perhaps giardia is the same.

Because I had quite honestly never experienced Giardia until Frankie presented with this, I did read up on it and discovered that although Metronidazole produced negative fecal results (Panacur did nothing!), this protozoa can be pretty much entirely cleared but some will burrow into the gut, and lie dormant unless the animal's health is otherwise stressed.   I have no idea whether this is right but can say that Frankie has had the occasional bout of tummy upset - as did his companion, both had fecals done and no Giardia showed up (or Coccidia, or campylobacter).

Interesting article linked here however.

Yes, that is true MamaBas.  Even once you've got rid of it and there are no symptoms and nothing appearing in poop, it can remain hidden in the digestive tract, encysted, until the immune system is weakened and then proliferate and cause symptoms again.  (Or, for some dogs, proliferate and cause no symptoms.)  It is truly a weird one.

We have now sent in poo samples with 4 days of different poos in should get results sometime next week my vets do in house checks, been on pot and fish diet now for a week breeder had him on Simpson’s we just get cow pats with that so that’s off the menu.tried probotics and again squits, so just a wait and see until results from vet. Had one of my dogs with campy took 7 months to finally get rid off, in himself he’s happy and typical pup, thanks for all replies,much appreciated.

OK Folks update on Poogate….

We had a clear poo result but still having soft poos came down one morning to poo city, diarreah everywhere, so took another load of samples to vet...Diagnosed last Friday with Campy again, on a 2 week course of Abs....Found a food fish and potato Fishmongers Finest from Pets at Home, which seemed to do the trick, BUT ….we still seem to have a good firm poo am, then later in day a soft one...Vet said it is the ABs,,,he is now 6 months old, and in himself growing and vet not too worried!! says totally normal for puppies to have this....Am now starting the probiotics, to help gut.
My question is someone told me about Arden Grange Fish & Pot food but can only see an adult food, 6 months ok to move onto adult food. Anyone used it...

Thanks in advance.....

Had very similar problems with my GR.  vet advised Wafcol salmon and potato and he has been 100%ok since starting on it  6months ago. I think they do a puppy version too.

I friend who has a sibling of my dog (GR) had campy from an early age like your pup. He’s recovered well although gets occasional doses of the squits from time to time. He’s grown into a large healthy looking dog. His owner does have to be careful about what food he’s fed on and watch what he snaffles when out on walks.
I moved my dog onto adult dog food at six months so I shouldn’t worry about that. Actually this was the first time I have fed a puppy on puppy type foods as there was nothing like that when I last had a pup. I’ve not used the food you mention but I do feed AG chicken and rice to my dog and it suits her well

Agree that adult food is fine (I always wonder if puppy food is a bit of a gimmick anyway, but of course I bought anyway).
Probiotics is an excellent idea - if you can get hold of, or make some, kefir then I'd highly recommend that.

>we still seem to have a good firm poo am, then later in day a soft one...Vet said it is the ABs,,,he is now 6 months old, and in himself growing and vet not too worried!! says totally normal for puppies to have this....Am now starting the probiotics, to help gut.

Yes, it's very normal for 2nd (or 3rd!) poos to be softer.  This might be on the same walk or just later in the day.  It's because the first poo has obviously been there the longest so the body has absorbed most water out of it by the time it comes out.  Later poos haven't had the water fully absorbed by the time they come through sometimes - excitement, exercise, heat or slightly over-feeding can all cause poos to come through quicker. 

Once you've had a dog with poo issues like this it can be tempting to interpret every slightly soft poo as a sign of impending poo-mageddon - but actually most of them mean nothing.  Your vet is probably right. 

Probiotics and digestive enzymes will be great additions, though.

Very sensible post, but it did make me laugh. Poo maggeden

Poo maggedden so very true.... I have had it big time, and yes you are so right, we interpret every poo....I know its going to take some time for his gut flora to sort itself out talking to one of the young vets at our practice the other day, and she told me his guts are like a hosepipe all the hairs in his guts are gone but have to have time to grow back, she was very reassuring saying he will grow out of it, I guess when you are on the front poo line you wonder if you will ever see firm poos as the norm...
Thanks for your replies....

> .we still seem to have a good firm poo am, then later in day a soft one..

This is EXACTLY what we were getting with Frankie, despite his fecals coming back clear (after his initial Giardia problem when coming to us at 4 months).    Again, after a tray of Hill's I/D which showed an almost immediate improvement, he was given a home-made coley and mashed potato diet and then onto Arden Grange Sensitive (adult).    Many people switch to an adult version of the same puppy food by 6 - 8 months.   Burns also recommend using an adult version of their food at 6 months.

Years ago our second hound, who was very sick soon after coming to us at 10 weeks (had Parvo been around at the time I'd have said this was what he had) and despite not leaving his contained garden.  I did wonder about his older companion potentially walking something in.    He was so bad that we had to leave him back with his breeder when we flew the Atlantic.   He was with her for 4 months before joining us.   In the meantime, he'd been given slippery elm food which helped restore the good bacteria in the gut.   Good and bad had been stripped out with the continual a/bs he'd been given.

Update...we have now had clear results 3 times, vet is now convinced it is a food related issue, he wants to put him on prescription diet, but not impressed with the ingredients etc etc, he has been on fish and potato diet, but am now wondering if he has got an intolerance to this...so....looking at foods and saw Simpsons, Venison & Rabbit, these are two ingredients that we haven't had..anyone tried this at all.?

Still on the first poo of the day good, subsequent poos soft but formed....

Any advice on this or any other "Sensitive" food most welcome.

I would really suggest a raw diet.  I have seen it work first hand with dogs that just haven't been able to tolerate kibble - which is a highly processed food, whatever brand you choose.

Try a complete raw food like Nutriment.  Even if you don't really want to feed raw, just try it so you know where you are with things...

Thanks for your advice but I don't think raw is going to suit us, after having the campy, e coli, and giardia im very reluctant to go through all that again,.I know folk who do and works ok for them but having this going on for 5 months, im just at the end of what to do next, and knowing our luck we will get something from the raw,,sorry to sound negative but its just the way it works for us...

I assume the vet is suggesting a hypoallergenic kibble.  The reason this often works is that the molecules of the food  are broken down so much that the dogs bodies don't recognise them and  set up a reaction feeding thay for a while may mean u can move on to somethi g else later but it may not
.I've done elimination diets for 3 dogs but on raw which is easier and appreciate it's not for you
  With kibble it's really going to be trial and error until u find one that doesn't have whatever Ingredient he may be sensitive to .choosing one with the least Ingredients and a different main protein may be a way to start .

Hi Goldenhound

One of my boys was on a vet recommended  hypoallergenic kibble for some time.  In his case it was as an elimination diet in response to persistent ear problems (one ear only) thought to be caused by possible food allergies.

In the end, after various interventions, his ear problem cleared up and we gradually introduced different proteins back into his diet.

It turns out that he does not seem to have an allergy after all as he can now eat anything and his ear is still good (touch wood).

I realise this is not the same as your boy's problem but my point is that the special diet did suit my lad's digestion very well and his poos were great while he was on it!  So ... it may well be worth a try for you and give you some space and time to think about what you do next ...

I sympathise - it's exhausting!  Good luck.

Thank you so much for your replies vet has rung and no its not a hypoallergenic diet (as far as I know.) its  Hills Vet Essentials. and have to go and pick up a small bag tomorrow. ????
Reading the ingredients....crap is the only word I can describe, I mentioned about an elimination diet and he didn't answer..so bck to sq 1,

Have had a read up and looks like 1 protein and 1 carb...onwards and upwards....

Ah, Ok - the food my boy was on was ProPlan Hypoallergenic, single hydrolysed protein.  It helped us to follow a genuine "elimination" strategy.  Thankfully, as I said before, it turned out that allergy was not the problem - but  the diet certainly helped us to sort things out and gave us the chance to build up additional proteins and assess the effect of each one as we added it to his meals.

I had another dog on Hills, for pancreatitis, but was not very impressed.  It was the much maligned Chappie Original (tinned - very low fat) that helped him in the end and sorted out his digestion, producing firm poo at last!

It's a bit of a minefield and unfortunately a lot of "trial and error" is involved, in my experience, but I am sure you will get there in the end.

I found it helpful to keep detailed records of what I was feeding and what the results were (food diary!) - otherwise it's easy to forget what's what when you are trying so many different things.

> saw Simpsons, Venison & Rabbit, these are two ingredients that we haven't had..anyone tried this at all.?

I have used Simpsons dry foods for years and they are good quality.  Have not sued that particular one, have used mainly the Lamb and Rice and the fish/chicken/Lamb and potato ones.

They also have a wet range.

>after having the campy, e coli, and giardia im very reluctant to go through all that again,

Nutriment batch test for all those you've listed, to ensure their food doesn't contain them.  It therefore actually contains less bacteria than raw human meats(!) because it's assumed that we will cook those and so they are not tested for bacteria:  https://www.nutriment.co.uk/raw-feeding/bacteria-raw-food/    "All Nutriment food products are tested for salmonella and other bacteria to the full extent required by law and we only ever use fresh meat and other ingredients fit for human consumption."

If the reason for the sloppy poos is a food allergy or intolerance, then I really recommend trying raw food.  I thought you'd ruled out giardia etc etc, through multiple clear stool tests....

Don't forget that the first line of defence for the immune system, is the microbiome - the 'good' bacteria in the gut.  Feeding raw food actually increases and improves the good bacteria in the gut, as this paper shows:  https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-017-0981-z

Thanks we have had 2 clear results now my vet says its food and is confident of it, I was actually looking into the Nutriment food,but everything we have tried just doesn't seem to help, this is why I still think there is campy etc still lurking in there....I feel poo sample no3 coming on....Didn't know nutriment test for campy etc, that's good to know ..thanks...

I have always found Royal Canin Gastro Intestinal tinned food (brown band across the front) the best food for sorting a dodgy/sensitive tum.  I only put him on it for a few days until poop sorted and then slowly mix in his normal food.  Our vet always gives it for post op surgeries, it is a good recovery food that I wouldn't feed long-term unless I had to but might work until you can find something that suits your dog better.   My 1st dog had bad colitis for years and the RC GI food was the only one that kept it away.

You need to remember it may take time for healthy gut flora to rebuild, and for the lining of the gut to heal, especially after antibiotics.

I am trying some of the YuDigest plus powder on my 15 month old's food after a bout of HGE and a course of antibiotics.  It is supposed to be fast acting at replenishing good gut bacteria.  Anyone here got any experience of using it.

We are using yudigest at the moment I contacted lintbells who make it direct to ask for advice and they told me can take 4-6 weeks before you see an improvement,we are in our 6 th week now and poos are firming also started burns duck and potato sensitive diet, and poos have gone down from 4-5 a day to 3...so hoping we are getting somewhere...

Many years ago had a hound with dreadful sloppy output, in his case it would turn into bloody Colitis. Perhaps should have done allergy tests but ended up constantly changing his food in an attempt to find something he would settle with, changed obviously over a week, he'd do well for a couple of months & then it all began again, so another change for the same thing to happen. Eventually changed to raw, stools settled within days, it could have been an intolerance but with many different proteins the problem of output was resolved. Occasionally perhaps once a year we'd have a mild upset progressing to colitis but nothing as he'd previously suffered from & usually resolved it's self or with the assistance of kaolin & morphine or Denes digestive powder. 
Our resent rescue came to us with appalling output problems, 18 months old & going 6/7 times day, so on the recommendation of breed rescue changed to Arden Grange sensitive & gradually he's settled to 2/3 a day, but in the coming weeks will move him to raw. Good luck it's not easy watching & dog produce slop every couple of hours.

Goldenhound, there are two types of YuDigest, fast acting powder given for a few days or the tablet form which I think you are referring to.

ooo didn't know that...thanks for letting me know...

Poo gate continues....

Now on Purina H/A food really cant think of anything else the Hills food the vets gave us just contributed to more cow pats presently doing more samples and will take in tomorrow see what comes up, am sure there must be something, now on month 6 of this dilemma and now at a loss, so anyone got any advice would be most welcome...

Raw food....

I agree with a trial of raw food.
Include Green tripe for good enzymes and edible raw bones (which help firm up poos too). "Natural live" yoghurt for more good enzymes. Kefir  yoghurt is probably the best!
No grains and no treats in between meals!!

.

can you diy raw rather than a complete ? It will give you more control and you will be able to tweak things better

80% muscle meat / 10 %  organ meat / 10 % Bone no fruit and veg or anything else as Wait ok says .  definitely tripe and I would use lamb tripe rather than beef for now as its much lower in fat which could help if he were mine . Not no fat but lower than a dog  not having gastric problems

If you have fb I suggest joining BARF  UK who can help you with anything raw, they have loads of experience and many members some who may have experienced similar to you

Def, raw, raw and raw again. My dig refused to eat hills I was at my wits end. I took advice from this site and switched to raw. Certainly did the trick but make sure you only introduce one protein at a time.

If you look at Nutriment foods, they have a 'Just' range - 'Just' one protein and nothing else...

Been on Purina ha food and today we had 2 firm  poos ...so see how it goes maybe keep him on it to give guts a rest  then work in a plan am looking in possibly novel protein now, he can’t have, chicken,Turkey,salmon,fish,lamb,duck,rice,or potato all these he has had and reaction within 2 hrs of having them, so could be kangaroo,or similar..thanks for all your replies .

did actually look at nutriment so see how it goes. Tomorrow is another day.

I would not assume it is those proteins causing the reaction unless you have fed that and only that one meat, for several days - and fed absolutely nothing else.  UNless you are following a strict exclusion diet, you won't be able to deduce anything....