This is purely out of curiosity because I'm watching a judge Judy with this as a case.

Stud owners - if no puppies are born is the fee returned?

When I was involved in horse breeding we worked on NFFR - no foal fee returned. And the legal "foal" of the contract was a living foal which had lived at least 7 days from birth. We never had one born then die in my time there but we had a few where the mare didn't fall pregnant and they got a free return covering and still didn't pay a fee unless a foal was born and lived 7 days. Mares were boarded with us to be bred and the boarding fee was paid separately and regardless of coverings and foals.

On the show I just saw a British bulldog owner brought the stud to the bitch. The mating for whatever reason didn't work out so they did a side by side AI with a kit. No puppies resulted.

The contract said if a cash fee was paid at the time of the mating and no litter resulted then the stud owner would offer the bitch a free return. The return was not taken up, so there was no second mating, no puppies were born and no fee was paid. As the cash fee had not been paid judge judy ruled that she had no losses, the contract was void and no fee was due and dismissed the case.

So I'm just wondering now what the norm is. Clearly the stud owner felt she was still due a fee or she'd not have sued. She said the cash fee wasn't paid at the time because he'd promised a puppy. She said it was the 12th time her dog was used and litters had resulted previously. Obviously they are in America so the rules may differ, I'm just wondering what the normal convention is.

The convention is for a free return, and if you choose not to return that's tough. But it's not a blanket policy, just the norm, at least in my breed.

It all depends on what is agreed.

In may breeds the stud fee is the price of a puppy so not a small sum, and breeders feel they are paying for a litter not for the dogs to have some fun.

Certainly in my breed where males get very few stud opportunities, so need at least one fee to cover health testing alone, it is not done to charge unless there are puppies. But we do all know each other and see ourselves as working together to preserve the breed which in the UK is low in numbers..

In the UK the stud fee traditionally is paid for the dog to mate the bitch & if no puppies a free repeat mating, the fee is usually paid at the time of mating. The stud fee traditionally has never been for a live litter/puppies unlike horse breeding in which no foal no fee is The norm. The stud fee used to be the price of a puppy but in many breeds the cost of puppies far outweighs the stud fee.(seen some GSD pups on CD priced at £1,000 !!!)

As you wrote Judge Judy is a US program & US law can be totally opposite to UK law(quite like JJ tho )

I love JJ because she's a smart woman on tv for her brains and not her looks a bit of substance is always appreciated.

I think in this case she knew she was out if her depth as to "convention" as she made it clear she was deciding based purely on the wording if the contract which was a good enough legal recourse in the absence of more in depth knowledge.

I was only a teenager when I worked with the horses. When I queried NFFR (it is quite a job managing a stallion's calendar through various shares especially when several booked mares come into season at the same time) the stud owner laughed and said "he'd pay to work, never mind work for free" which turned me very red at the time!

Although we didn't let our boys be used at stud very often, and indeed I turned down more requests than accepted, I went by the first breeder's outside stud dog I used.   She was American and had a Stud Contract which said no puppies - free repeat.   And further, if no more than 2 live puppies, she'd offer a free repeat too.    You pay for the service with dogs.    I felt 'bad' but the only bitch who came to both my boys (the second on her next season) and missed, and then went to another stud dog on the next season, and still no puppies, I had taken a stud fee from (on the first occasion).   So she'd had her free repeat and so didn't get a refund.

I have a feeling that these days, with the bigger kennels in my main breed, money doesn't change hands - they have a puppy (not necessarily pick of either sex) in lieu of the fee.

I do agree that stud fees seem to have lost contact with the cost of a puppy - it always used to be the fee = the cost of one puppy.   But in my main breed, again, they are being advertised at AT LEAST £1K and many now at £1300.   Whether they get what's asked I don't know but I have heard breeders expect to be bartered down

Technically the fee is for 'the services of the dog', not for puppies. If you get a normal mating with a good tie, the fee is payable. There's usually a gentleman's agreement for a free return next season if the bitch misses, but this needs to be agreed in advance. Some stud owners charge a fee per live puppy born, but again, this needs to be agreed, on paper, in advance.

The more common way ive seen is the bitch owner pays the stud fee at the time of maiting with a free return if no litter.

In my breed many do a handling fee at the time of maiting then the rest payed after pups born with some not considering it a litter if 2 or less pups. I think this is a fare way myself. the stud owner is payed for their time at the time and the bitch owner isnt vastly out of pocket if no litter.

ive also heard of some in other breeds doing it as a handling fee then a set amount payed per live pup born.

I’ve always had a free return if no litter from the mating.

If no pups the second time no free return.

The cost of the stud is around half the price of a puppy.

> The cost of the stud is around half the price of a puppy.

.... which never used to be the case.   I'd suspect that the reason with bigger breeders, that money doesn't often change hands these days, is having a take back puppy is a better deal!!   The take back pup is payment for the service, with a bonus if the stud dog's owner then sells that puppy!!

FB replies:

Louise Hay says: No

Steph Neesam says: no... a free mating next heat and if that fails up to stud owner to let try again or try a different stud as some just are not compatible

Sue Parr says: I don't take a stud fee till puppies are born

Carol Chapman says:  Have never paid a stud fee until puppies are sold

Rachel Savage says:  Every breed is different. It’s usually a No. but you must set terms with the stud owner. For example some will pay money back, some give a free return mating. You must agree to terms before mating and have signed agreement. Otherwise you won’t see your money again. Studs usually give a receipt etc so you can claim it through tax expenses. It’s often on the receipt the terms

David Remedy Smith says:  I take a small charge at mating. Then after 4 weeks scan full stud fee. If the bitch was showing pups. If no pups I’d give a free return.

Johnny McDougall says:  Im of the opinion that no fee should take place until there are pups - regardless of breed etc. Its about decency.

> Johnny McDougall says:  Im of the opinion that no fee should take place until there are pups - regardless of breed etc. Its about decency

Totally disagree with this statement.  It IS different in some breeds. 

Like MamaBass I turned down far more people than I accepted.  And charged £200 stud fee, for which I offered 3 matings.    In a breed that averages 1-3 pups.  Having a pup instead of a stud fee was not anything I considered with such small litters.  At the time my breed was averaging £1000 and upwards for a pup.  I always offered a free return. And when a bitch had one puppy that later died I offered a free return (although I didn't have to) because I felt so sorry for the bitches owner.  My breed needs so much time when it comes to mating that I spent many hours seeing to the bitches needs.  I am extremely experienced with maiden bitches, and owners relied on my experience.

> Its about decency

I would say that was high priority for me.  It's not all about money Johnny.

> Sue Parr says: I don't take a stud fee till puppies are born

I'd only do that with an unproven stud dog - but most (in my breed and in 'those days'?) wouldn't offer a dog at public stud, until it WAS proven.   Again I believe in payment for the 'service'.

I proved my dog with a friends bitch (for no fee) before offering him to outside bitches, fee payable on the day of mating with a free return if no puppies, only had one return which resulted in a litter.   Horses generally seem to be No Foal Free Return rather than No Foal No Fee which used to be the norm in my youth, years ago Thoroughbred Stallions used to offer a reduced fee or free return if the mare had a filly foal, how times have changed.

>> Sue Parr says: I don't take a stud fee till puppies are born

That is usual in my breed, but again the stud fee has always been the price of a puppy.

For flatcoats, we take a handling fee, then the full stud fee (made up to the price of a puppy when the bitch is scanned with more than two pups.

For working cockers the fee is much less (who knows why - they have to have many more tests!!), so I take the full fee up front with a free return.

Jo